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Old 04-05-2013, 02:26 PM   #151
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As far as who lines up where next year the thing that still needs to be addressed is MLB. Irving is currently penciled in as starter there which leaves me VERY nervous. Of course the staff is supposed to know more, but they also thought Mays was the answer last year. I honestly can't believe they think the position is filled.
IMO they may still be looking at MLB for their first pick ( although they may move back and pick up another #2 ). I just don't see the value there, as there aren't any impact 3 down LBs that I can see.

I still wish the Broncos would look at a vet like Dansby at MLB. Then you have the freedom to take that DE/OLB in the first or second without impacting the rest of the draft negatively, or drafting for need. Maybe they are waiting to see how the draft plays out before making a move there, but other teams probably see the same thing, and will also be looking.
I know many here were trying to tell us how the MLB isnt very important in this defense but as much b****ing that we did about Mays, I know it is still in important position on this defense. I highly doubt we go MLB near the top of our draft picks but I do think our F.O. will address it as a need. I just think the defense mindset is we have more important positions to fill with more than "just a body".
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:36 PM   #152
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I am still waiting for someone to tell me how and why Von lined up on the right side will stunt his growth and hurt the team..
Right or left doesn't matter. Him being at DE a significant amount of time does matter, imo.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:52 PM   #153
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I am still waiting for someone to tell me how and why Von lined up on the right side will stunt his growth and hurt the team..
During the Ravens game, Miller probably played about 50% of snaps on the right side, so it's a moot point.

Your plan requires a rookie starting OLB, and a rookie starting 0-tech...rather unlikely.

Also, having a guy like Dumervil gives you much more flexibility to run either an even (nickel) or odd (base) front. A pure OLB eliminates the Defense's ability to stop both the run and the pass in an even front. That's why the Raven's wanted him...Like Suggs, Dumervil is an extremely valuable commodity who is an elite pass-rusher AND can stop the run.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:56 PM   #154
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OK, so Doom had 2 sacks on 1st downs.

How many times did he force an incompletion on 1st down?
How many times did the attention paid to him by blockers allow someone else to get a sack on 1st down?
How many times did the attention paid to him by blockers allow someone else to force an incompletion on 1st down?
How many times did the fact that the base defense of the Broncos featured two great pass rushers make the offense decide to run on first down, allowing the 3 big guys an opportunity to make a play in the run game?

Doom has a much bigger effect than you think, especially when he's paired with Von. It dictates terms to the offense, which is what I want my defense to do.
Do you not remember him bull rushing all the time on early downs?
His job also involved keeping an eye on containment
Despite what you keep insisting he was not getting double and triple teamed on every play
Von always has been the priority of the offense

The scheme is not changing
Doom was not the lynchpin of the defense and was not the sole reason for our first down success

He is a good rusher but makes his money on passing downs, again just compare his stats

Your instance that he was terrorizing offenses on running downs and required all of their attention is not true
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:37 PM   #155
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Right or left doesn't matter. Him being at DE a significant amount of time does matter, imo.
On pass rushing downs.. It's not a problem..
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:39 PM   #156
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During the Ravens game, Miller probably played about 50% of snaps on the right side, so it's a moot point.

Your plan requires a rookie starting OLB, and a rookie starting 0-tech...rather unlikely.

Also, having a guy like Dumervil gives you much more flexibility to run either an even (nickel) or odd (base) front. A pure OLB eliminates the Defense's ability to stop both the run and the pass in an even front. That's why the Raven's wanted him...Like Suggs, Dumervil is an extremely valuable commodity who is an elite pass-rusher AND can stop the run.
You don't need a rookie to start anywhere Price. This would be passing downs. There you go again thinking just 4-3 or 3-4..

And Von gives you so much more scheme flexibility than Doom.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:49 PM   #157
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Do you not remember him bull rushing all the time on early downs?
His job also involved keeping an eye on containment
Despite what you keep insisting he was not getting double and triple teamed on every play
Von always has been the priority of the offense

The scheme is not changing
Doom was not the lynchpin of the defense and was not the sole reason for our first down success

He is a good rusher but makes his money on passing downs, again just compare his stats

Your instance that he was terrorizing offenses on running downs and required all of their attention is not true
Replacing a top ten passrushing DE who is below average against the run with a DE who is no threat rushing, but is above average against the run is not changing the scheme? Good to know.

Also, why is 1st down a running down? In 2011 (couldn't find 2012 data) teams passed 51.5% of the time on 1st and 10.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:59 PM   #158
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Replacing a top ten passrushing DE who is below average against the run with a DE who is no threat rushing, but is above average against the run is not changing the scheme? Good to know.

Also, why is 1st down a running down? In 2011 (couldn't find 2012 data) teams passed 51.5% of the time on 1st and 10.
it changes where the pressure comes from but it doesn't change the D. you might blitz a LB or safety instead of the DE getting the pressure or use Wolfe to create from DT.

if we draft well and get a MLB the loss of Doom will be sufficiently mitigated.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:10 PM   #159
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You don't need a rookie to start anywhere Price. This would be passing downs. There you go again thinking just 4-3 or 3-4..

And Von gives you so much more scheme flexibility than Doom.
Yeah...Von is a super-human. Nobody as small as him should be getting 18.5 sacks and 28 TFL's playing on the LOS.

Why would you draft an OLB to play at DE in an even front Nickel Defense? Why not just draft a DE?
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:45 PM   #160
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The more I look at it, the more I'm not impressed with this years crop of edge-rushing OLB's.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:13 PM   #161
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it changes where the pressure comes from but it doesn't change the D. you might blitz a LB or safety instead of the DE getting the pressure or use Wolfe to create from DT.

if we draft well and get a MLB the loss of Doom will be sufficiently mitigated.
Wolfe inside? Yes.

Yes.

Blitzing an LB since the DEs can't create pressure? That just means we're using five players to get the same results we got last season with four.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:14 PM   #162
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Yeah...Von is a super-human. Nobody as small as him should be getting 18.5 sacks and 28 TFL's playing on the LOS.

Why would you draft an OLB to play at DE in an even front Nickel Defense? Why not just draft a DE?
I expect the Brass to draft a DE and not an OLB. I liked the idea of adding another OLB so we have more scheme versatility. If Jones is sitting there at #28, I would 100% draft him and use he and Von as much as possible. I think Von excells at rushing the passer wherever he lines up, and he has spent some time on the right side of the line. I would mix packages between 4-3, 3-4, nickel, hybrid and put two freaks like that on the field. Having players like Wolfe, Jackson, Von allows this.. What I don't like about a RDE, is that he's strictly a DE and can't be moved around like OLBs. The idea was to provoke some different creative thinking.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:45 PM   #163
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Wolfe inside? Yes.

Yes.

Blitzing an LB since the DEs can't create pressure? That just means we're using five players to get the same results we got last season with four.
wut? Ever hear of the 5-2, pretty much bread and butter last year.
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Old 04-06-2013, 12:14 AM   #164
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wut? Ever hear of the 5-2, pretty much bread and butter last year.
A) We're talking about base defense

B) Denver rushed 4.4 players per pass last season. Since we sometimes would rush 6 or more, it is plain to see that we rushed 4 a large majority of the time.
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Old 04-06-2013, 01:07 AM   #165
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How many sacks did we get when we rushed 4. Thats what i would like to see. Because if Doom got sacks while we rushed 5 or 6 they aren't as sexy.

If someone tells me doom got 8 sacks while we rushed only 4 and the other guys stunks and got nothing in those situations I will be a little more worried.

i still hope though Freeny comes to his senses an signs for 4-5 mil a yr.
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Old 04-06-2013, 04:30 AM   #166
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Wolfe inside? Yes.

Yes.

Blitzing an LB since the DEs can't create pressure? That just means we're using five players to get the same results we got last season with four.
Strange how our leading pass rusher (and one of the top 3 in the league) was a linebacker then
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:17 AM   #167
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A) We're talking about base defense

B) Denver rushed 4.4 players per pass last season. Since we sometimes would rush 6 or more, it is plain to see that we rushed 4 a large majority of the time.
5-2 defense was run a lot last year, we even discussed it here on the mane. Von seemed to line up more on the defensive line than in a base 4-3 from what I remember.
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Old 04-06-2013, 12:27 PM   #168
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If someone tells me doom got 8 sacks while we rushed only 4 and the other guys stunks and got nothing in those situations I will be a little more worried.
It's already been posted in this thread that Dumervil had only 2 sacks in base defense. Which would infer that he had 9 sacks in nickel defense.

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5-2 defense was run a lot last year, we even discussed it here on the mane. Von seemed to line up more on the defensive line than in a base 4-3 from what I remember.
According to the Broncos statistics, they were in base defense (5-2) 35% of the time. They ran an even front nickel defense 65% of the time.



Ayers is strictly a bull-rusher, like almost all of the DE prospects coming out in the draft. There is a reason guys like Dumervil and Miller have been All-Pro's when guys like Ayers are perennial back-ups.

Last edited by pricejj; 04-06-2013 at 12:46 PM..
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:20 PM   #169
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It's already been posted in this thread that Dumervil had only 2 sacks in base defense. Which would infer that he had 9 sacks in nickel defense.



According to the Broncos statistics, they were in base defense (5-2) 35% of the time. They ran an even front nickel defense 65% of the time.



Ayers is strictly a bull-rusher, like almost all of the DE prospects coming out in the draft. There is a reason guys like Dumervil and Miller have been All-Pro's when guys like Ayers are perennial back-ups.
So, when you add 35 to 65 you get 100. So the Broncos had 2 linebackers 100% of the time either in a 5-2 or a nickle defense.

So again, the base 4-3 where you have 3 linebackers on the second level never happened. So again, IF the defense was NOT in a 5-2 with Von on the los, then they were in a nickel. Great. My point stands.
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:32 PM   #170
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....
MagiChef was trying to say that the majority of the time the Broncos ran with both Miller and Dumervil in a 4-man front.

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Old 04-06-2013, 02:50 PM   #171
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MagiChef was trying to say that the majority of the time the Broncos ran with both Miller and Dumervil in a 4-man front.
Look at his post 161, in referring to blitzing a LBer from a base 4-3 he says: Blitzing an LB since the DEs can't create pressure? That just means we're using five players to get the same results we got last season with four.

To which I responded the Broncos created pressure with a 5 man front from the 5-2. This completely destroys his point about the Broncos defense creating pressure in a base 4-3 with two DEs. Then in post 164 MagicHef says: We're talking about base defense.

Then you chimed in about the Broncos either running a 5-2 or a nickel, which, again, proves my point that the Broncos weren't in a base 4-3 much of the time, if ever. If Von was on the los in a nickel it makes no difference. He essentially was a DE in the Broncos defense.

But whatever...

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Old 04-06-2013, 03:33 PM   #172
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Look at his post 161, in referring to blitzing a LBer from a base 4-3 he says: Blitzing an LB since the DEs can't create pressure? That just means we're using five players to get the same results we got last season with four.

To which I responded the Broncos created pressure with a 5 man front from the 5-2. This completely destroys his point about the Broncos defense creating pressure in a base 4-3 with two DEs. Then in post 164 MagicHef says: We're talking about base defense.

Then you chimed in about the Broncos either running a 5-2 or a nickel, which, again, proves my point that the Broncos weren't in a base 4-3 much of the time, if ever. If Von was on the los in a nickel it makes no difference. He essentially was a DE in the Broncos defense.

But whatever...
5 guys on the line doesn't mean 5 guys were rushing. Again, the Broncos averaged 4.4 rushers per pass play.

But whatever, we're getting really far from the original point, which was that rolling with Ayers as the starting RDE is a terrible idea. I'd be stunned if it happened.
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Old 04-06-2013, 05:48 PM   #173
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It's already been posted in this thread that Dumervil had only 2 sacks in base defense. Which would infer that he had 9 sacks in nickel defense.



According to the Broncos statistics, they were in base defense (5-2) 35% of the time. They ran an even front nickel defense 65% of the time.



Ayers is strictly a bull-rusher, like almost all of the DE prospects coming out in the draft. There is a reason guys like Dumervil and Miller have been All-Pro's when guys like Ayers are perennial back-ups.
I liked Doom a lot but that tells me Doom doesn't really get sacks on first downs anymore. When we blitz, bring miller, he has more luck getting there which will be true for any player we put on that side now.

What we need though is a special guy who plays all 3 downs and can beat LT 1-1 on any down.
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Old 04-06-2013, 06:39 PM   #174
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I liked Doom a lot but that tells me Doom doesn't really get sacks on first downs anymore. When we blitz, bring miller, he has more luck getting there which will be true for any player we put on that side now.

What we need though is a special guy who plays all 3 downs and can beat LT 1-1 on any down.
When did Von get his sacks? I'd bet the majority were on later downs, when we were ahead, and late in the game, just like Doom.

If we need a guy like you described, I think that leaves us with 3 possibilities: Deacon Jones, Reggie White, or Bruce Smith. We'd better hurry, because one of those guys is already dead.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:18 AM   #175
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Ayers is strictly a bull-rusher, like almost all of the DE prospects coming out in the draft. There is a reason guys like Dumervil and Miller have been All-Pro's when guys like Ayers are perennial back-ups.
I disagree.

Last year he was beating guys like Jordan Gross off a speed rush.
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