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Old 04-04-2013, 11:13 PM   #126
Mat'hir Uth Gan
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Quick question:

Why only compare senior seasons for Von, Bruce and Eric? You know, since in their junior seasons Von had 17 sacks, Bruce had 14, and Eric had 2.5.

Maybe they aren't exactly the same prospects.

Also, you are completely justified in hating me.

Why would I hate you? I don't mind quality questions. If you troll me, or are belligerent, I'll simply ignore you.

The reason I didn't compare Junior seasons was because Eric did not start. It's also why I have him as a mid round draft value as opposed to a Top 15 overall selection, because he is still developing. He has all the same attributes that made the other two so appealing, and he's a fun guy to watch play, ultra-aggressive with an attitude and he hits hard.

I hope Denver drafts him.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:15 PM   #127
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I can ask around and see if anyone I know has a recording of the Iowa game.
Awesome, thanks!
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:29 AM   #128
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Kiper had wolfe as a first rounder by his final mock. I dont think anyone had Irvin close though.
The problem with Irvin wasn't talent, it was the off the field baggage that he had.
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:29 AM   #129
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Yeah Drek we are going to come out in base D with a team spreading us out.. Really clever..
I'm not trying to be snarky or anything man, but you were the one trying to use "Knighton and Vickerson are the starters" as a legitimate argument for Wolfe not spending more time at DT. It's entirely possible based on who we're playing and how the game goes that we'll have games in 2013 where Wolfe plays more snaps at DT than either Knighton or Vickerson, that's my point. Wolfe's interior pass rush is too valuable to bury him as a 5-tech, especially now that we don't have Doom at RDE to tag team with Miller.

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In my opinion in a hybrid scheme, having versatile players as several others have also mentioned is key.
I'd agree completely, and neither Knighton or Vickerson are versatile, despite being necessary weapons for certain downs. As a result we're likely to see Wolfe and Jackson groomed into roles where they can take more snaps from the two one dimensional gap fillers.

[quote[Nobody has presented a real reason why Miller couldn't line up on the right side on passing downs.. He's going to be rushing, I see no reason why that will stunt his growth or hurt his long term potential. Miller has constantly excelled in different roles and responsibilities at every given opportunity. Why him rushing on the right side which he did last year isn't a problem at all!

Some seem to think its going to really affect him long term, I don't see it. I'd rather see other versatile explosive players brought in who allow for different formations and schematical approaches. If Jarvis Jones is hanging around @#28, what are we gonna pass because we don't need two Von Millers..?[/QUOTE]

Miller is the football equivalent to the world's most advanced heat seeking missile and will continue to be lined up all over the field. With Doom gone he will almost definitely see more time rushing from the defensive right side, since the one dimensional pass rusher we had living over there is now gone. The real question is who replaces Miller's pressure from the left side when he's on the right, replacing Doom's?

The FO needs to get a quality pass rusher in the draft regardless of skill set. If that's a first/second round RDE like Damontre Moore then go for it. If they really believe in a 3rd/4th round guy like John Simon then so be it. Anything in between works as well, but they've got to identify where they can get more pass rush and make it happen in the draft now. Losing Doom makes getting additional pass rush the top priority of the draft.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:07 AM   #130
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I'm not trying to be snarky or anything man, but you were the one trying to use "Knighton and Vickerson are the starters" as a legitimate argument for Wolfe not spending more time at DT. It's entirely possible based on who we're playing and how the game goes that we'll have games in 2013 where Wolfe plays more snaps at DT than either Knighton or Vickerson, that's my point. Wolfe's interior pass rush is too valuable to bury him as a 5-tech, especially now that we don't have Doom at RDE to tag team with Miller.


I'd agree completely, and neither Knighton or Vickerson are versatile, despite being necessary weapons for certain downs. As a result we're likely to see Wolfe and Jackson groomed into roles where they can take more snaps from the two one dimensional gap fillers.

[quote[Nobody has presented a real reason why Miller couldn't line up on the right side on passing downs.. He's going to be rushing, I see no reason why that will stunt his growth or hurt his long term potential. Miller has constantly excelled in different roles and responsibilities at every given opportunity. Why him rushing on the right side which he did last year isn't a problem at all!

Some seem to think its going to really affect him long term, I don't see it. I'd rather see other versatile explosive players brought in who allow for different formations and schematical approaches. If Jarvis Jones is hanging around @#28, what are we gonna pass because we don't need two Von Millers..?
Miller is the football equivalent to the world's most advanced heat seeking missile and will continue to be lined up all over the field. With Doom gone he will almost definitely see more time rushing from the defensive right side, since the one dimensional pass rusher we had living over there is now gone. The real question is who replaces Miller's pressure from the left side when he's on the right, replacing Doom's?

The FO needs to get a quality pass rusher in the draft regardless of skill set. If that's a first/second round RDE like Damontre Moore then go for it. If they really believe in a 3rd/4th round guy like John Simon then so be it. Anything in between works as well, but they've got to identify where they can get more pass rush and make it happen in the draft now. Losing Doom makes getting additional pass rush the top priority of the draft.[/QUOTE]






When it's running downs, I fully expect a four man front of Ayers, Vickerson, Knighton, Wolfe. On passing downs, Wolfe will kick inside, maybe Jackson with him. I actually think we are a NT away from having the ability to play with more 3-4 looks.. Having Wolfe and Jackson as DEs.. Maybe that's why we looked at Geathers..?

It seems you agree that Miller will be most certainly lined up more on the right side with the departure of Doom. We both agree it will either be a RDE or a SOLB brought in for pass rush, depending on if they want a RDE in situational downs or a SOLB who has a Von like skill set.

The two players you named, Moore and Simon would be quality RDE replacements. But I would rather draft a SOLB who has a Von like skill set and can drop into coverage or blitz, allowing Von to strictly blitz from the other side. This will also make us even more unique in the formations and packages we can throw at an offense.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:41 AM   #131
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When it's running downs, I fully expect a four man front of Ayers, Vickerson, Knighton, Wolfe. On passing downs, Wolfe will kick inside, maybe Jackson with him. I actually think we are a NT away from having the ability to play with more 3-4 looks.. Having Wolfe and Jackson as DEs.. Maybe that's why we looked at Geathers..?

It seems you agree that Miller will be most certainly lined up more on the right side with the departure of Doom. We both agree it will either be a RDE or a SOLB brought in for pass rush, depending on if they want a RDE in situational downs or a SOLB who has a Von like skill set.

The two players you named, Moore and Simon would be quality RDE replacements. But I would rather draft a SOLB who has a Von like skill set and can drop into coverage or blitz, allowing Von to strictly blitz from the other side. This will also make us even more unique in the formations and packages we can throw at an offense.
That makes me want to cry.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:17 AM   #132
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That makes me want to cry.
What? That's a stout run defense..
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:19 AM   #133
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What? That's a stout run defense..
Yes it is.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:39 AM   #134
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I remember Del Rio one time talking about the goal of the defense
He said teams are more likely to run on first down than any other, and that the goal on first is to get the offense in 2nd and long so the nickel D can get on there. So the goal was to shut the run down first and then play pass.

They Dline needs to form a wall and prevent any gap openings

Perhaps not the best pass defense for first down playactions, but in terms of walling off the LOS a front 4 with Ayers, Pot Roast, Vick, and Wolfe is pretty solid
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:39 AM   #135
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I remember Del Rio one time talking about the goal of the defense
He said teams are more likely to run on first down than any other, and that the goal on first is to get the offense in 2nd and long so the nickel D can get on there. So the goal was to shut the run down first and then play pass.

They Dline needs to form a wall and prevent any gap openings

Perhaps not the best pass defense for first down playactions, but in terms of walling off the LOS a front 4 with Ayers, Pot Roast, Vick, and Wolfe is pretty solid
If you're an OC and the opposing DL comes out on first down with 4 run stoppers that have little pass rush ability (given that Wolfe is not an edge rusher) what would you do?
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:26 AM   #136
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The problem with Irvin wasn't talent, it was the off the field baggage that he had.
Irvins measureables are very close to Von's.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:29 PM   #137
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If you're an OC and the opposing DL comes out on first down with 4 run stoppers that have little pass rush ability (given that Wolfe is not an edge rusher) what would you do?
well the goal of every offense is to be able to keep the defense off balance
I guess Del Rio's goal is to take away the opposition's run game to make them one dimensional

This may come at a cost of vulernability to the pass on early downs, but considering our defense forced like what 16 straight 3 and outs during the season against the chargers I would say the plan thus far has been effective
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:34 PM   #138
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well the goal of every offense is to be able to keep the defense off balance
I guess Del Rio's goal is to take away the opposition's run game to make them one dimensional

This may come at a cost of vulernability to the pass on early downs, but considering our defense forced like what 16 straight 3 and outs during the season against the chargers I would say the plan thus far has been effective
You realize that Dumervil was on the field for nearly every play last year, right? Those 4 DL do not represent "the plan thus far."
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:50 PM   #139
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If you're an OC and the opposing DL comes out on first down with 4 run stoppers that have little pass rush ability (given that Wolfe is not an edge rusher) what would you do?
Chuck it short/middle/and deep all day long until the Broncos came out in Nickel Defense, then I would run it down the Broncos throats and dare Nate Irving to stop me.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:53 PM   #140
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If you're an OC and the opposing DL comes out on first down with 4 run stoppers that have little pass rush ability (given that Wolfe is not an edge rusher) what would you do?
slant route em to deep or drop a couple of bombs and dare their base to change. if they change then i cram it down their throats and force them to change back and then light em up again.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:57 PM   #141
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When it's running downs, I fully expect a four man front of Ayers, Vickerson, Knighton, Wolfe.
2012:

Ayers+Vickerson+Knighton+Wolfe = 12 sacks
Dumervil = 11.5 sacks
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:00 PM   #142
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You realize that Dumervil was on the field for nearly every play last year, right? Those 4 DL do not represent "the plan thus far."
The plan is to stop the run and force them into long down and distances
That is why we have a 300 lb DE

That doesnt change with Doom leaving
Besides 7.5 of his 11 sacks came in the 4th quarter
The majority came on 3rd or 4th down

He was not single handily preventing teams from throwing on first like you seem to think(he had 2 sacks all year on 1st down)

Doom was not the reason we two gapped with 3 guys on running downs

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Old 04-05-2013, 01:01 PM   #143
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2012:

Ayers+Vickerson+Knighton+Wolfe = 12 sacks
Dumervil = 11.5 sacks
Doom is a pass rushing DE, it's his job to get sacks and when he wasn't people were calling him overpaid. Ayers is not a pass rusher, he wasn't in college and isn't in the pros. Knighton is a NT and Wolfe was in his first season.

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Old 04-05-2013, 01:22 PM   #144
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The plan is to stop the run and force them into long down and distances
That is why we have a 300 lb DE

That doesnt change with Doom leaving
Besides 7.5 of his 11 sacks came in the 4th quarter
The majority came on 3rd or 4th down

He was not single handily preventing teams from throwing on first like you seem to think(he had 2 sacks all year on 1st down)

Doom was not the reason we two gapped with 3 guys on running downs
Yes, he was. Having 2 great rushers in Doom and Von meant that we could afford to have 3 guys focus on stopping the run.

Having one great rusher does not mean that we can afford to have 4 guys focus on stopping the run.
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:37 PM   #145
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Yes, he was. Having 2 great rushers in Doom and Von meant that we could afford to have 3 guys focus on stopping the run.

Having one great rusher does not mean that we can afford to have 4 guys focus on stopping the run.
And I am saying based on his 2 sacks total on first downs that him pressuring the qb on first down was not the top priority of the defense

Doom is a great rusher, but his sacks for the most part came on passing downs

And we can still blitz as well, the double teams our lineman will be taking will open up opportunities for the LBs and Ss to get in the backfield as well
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:50 PM   #146
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Doom is a pass rushing DE, it's his job to get sacks and when he wasn't people were calling him overpaid. Ayers is not a pass rusher, he wasn't in college and isn't in the pros. Knighton is a NT and Wolfe was in his first season.
Our Defense will be awesome if teams run it up the middle every single time.
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:50 PM   #147
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As far as who lines up where next year the thing that still needs to be addressed is MLB. Irving is currently penciled in as starter there which leaves me VERY nervous. Of course the staff is supposed to know more, but they also thought Mays was the answer last year. I honestly can't believe they think the position is filled.
IMO they may still be looking at MLB for their first pick ( although they may move back and pick up another #2 ). I just don't see the value there, as there aren't any impact 3 down LBs that I can see.

I still wish the Broncos would look at a vet like Dansby at MLB. Then you have the freedom to take that DE/OLB in the first or second without impacting the rest of the draft negatively, or drafting for need. Maybe they are waiting to see how the draft plays out before making a move there, but other teams probably see the same thing, and will also be looking.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:03 PM   #148
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And I am saying based on his 2 sacks total on first downs that him pressuring the qb on first down was not the top priority of the defense

Doom is a great rusher, but his sacks for the most part came on passing downs

And we can still blitz as well, the double teams our lineman will be taking will open up opportunities for the LBs and Ss to get in the backfield as well
OK, so Doom had 2 sacks on 1st downs.

How many times did he force an incompletion on 1st down?
How many times did the attention paid to him by blockers allow someone else to get a sack on 1st down?
How many times did the attention paid to him by blockers allow someone else to force an incompletion on 1st down?
How many times did the fact that the base defense of the Broncos featured two great pass rushers make the offense decide to run on first down, allowing the 3 big guys an opportunity to make a play in the run game?

Doom has a much bigger effect than you think, especially when he's paired with Von. It dictates terms to the offense, which is what I want my defense to do.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:11 PM   #149
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If our first down DL is Ayers, Vickerson, Knighton, Wolfe, we will see significantly more throws on first down, negating our determination to stop the run.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:20 PM   #150
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I am still waiting for someone to tell me how and why Von lined up on the right side will stunt his growth and hurt the team..
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