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Old 03-29-2013, 08:26 AM   #76
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Who are you going to take off the field on third and passing downs. We played the Nickel something like 55% of the time last year. So on the majority of our plays he wouldn't be on the field... Unless you think he would get on the field in front of the two LBs that played in the Nickel last year (Von and WWIII).
I like Teo, I just don't think he would play enough.
I've heard this argument before and the way I see it is that when the Broncos go into nickle and they leave 2 LBers out on the field, those 2 LBers have to be able to cover space, that is, move. One guy who is big and fast is Miller. If the Broncos can draft another LBer that is better than WW and can stay on the field all the time then that is when they draft a guy in the first round for Mike. Again, if there's a LBer the Broncos think can be that guy then they take him at 28, if not, then trade down and out or take BPA.

IMHO, BPA at this time won't be a LBer unless Arthur Brown or MAYBE Minter are there. But again, while these guys are good, are the a franchise type MLB, are they a Brian Urlacher or a Patric Willis? If the answer is "no" then take another player, BPA. That guy may be a CB or a Safety or a RB or even a WR in this draft.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:08 AM   #77
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We sadly do not need another strong side linebacker.
What
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:08 AM   #78
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What
Spikes is a run defender only, he is good against the run but he is a total liability against the pass. The only place to put a guy like that in a 4-3 is as a 2 down SLB which is probably where Spikes will end up.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:13 AM   #79
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Spikes is a run defender only, he is good against the run but he is a total liability against the pass. The only place to put a guy like that in a 4-3 is as a 2 down SLB which is probably where Spikes will end up.
Spikes had 7 PD's last year at MLB. That is 7 more then Mays and Brooking combined.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:32 AM   #80
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But Spikes is improving, grading out positively in coverage in three of the last five weeks by ProFootballFocus evaluations. He was targeted just twice against the Indianapolis Colts in Week 11, yielding zero completions.

If the Pats manage their defensive schemes in such a way as to keep Spikes from needing to test his range in coverage too often, he can succeed as an every-down player.

That means leaving him in when they play nickel coverage and giving him middle-zone responsibility on checkdowns and as a QB spy when he's not rushing the passer. The potential of a thunderous hit by Spikes over the middle is enough to make any RB peek over his shoulder on a checkdown.


Spikes improved as the year went on in pass coverage as well. Is they the best at it? Of course not his speed just isn't going to allow him to be. My point is if Spikes who is flat out slow (5.06) 40, can and has been on the field covering then T'eo and his 4.72 40 time can as well because they both have tremendous instincts.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:47 AM   #81
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Spikes had 7 PD's last year at MLB. That is 7 more then Mays and Brooking combined.
That is only half as many as JJ Watt who plays 3-4 DE and 40 front DT.... what is your point?
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:53 AM   #82
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But Spikes is improving, grading out positively in coverage in three of the last five weeks by ProFootballFocus evaluations. He was targeted just twice against the Indianapolis Colts in Week 11, yielding zero completions.

If the Pats manage their defensive schemes in such a way as to keep Spikes from needing to test his range in coverage too often, he can succeed as an every-down player.

That means leaving him in when they play nickel coverage and giving him middle-zone responsibility on checkdowns and as a QB spy when he's not rushing the passer. The potential of a thunderous hit by Spikes over the middle is enough to make any RB peek over his shoulder on a checkdown.


Spikes improved as the year went on in pass coverage as well. Is they the best at it? Of course not his speed just isn't going to allow him to be. My point is if Spikes who is flat out slow (5.06) 40, can and has been on the field covering then T'eo and his 4.72 40 time can as well because they both have tremendous instincts.
Instincts just doesn't cut it when Gronkowski or Graham, Gonzalez or even Heath Miller is streaking down the seam. You can't have a guy out there responsible for covering a tight end, especially in nickel situations and rely on the tight end running a route down the middle that is not a go. Spikes and Te'o may be able to cheat in zone coverage enough to not be an outright liability, but in man coverage their athletic limitations make them easy targets.

The reason Spikes was targeted only twice against the Colts is that the Colts do not pass on the inside much.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:59 AM   #83
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Te'o would be a good acquisition, who will probably be an NFL starter for a long time and possibly a Pro Bowler.

However, the Broncos screwed away their opportunity to draft him when they released Dumervil.

Best Available DE at #28. Better believe teams will be looking to jump ahead of the Broncos because they know what we will be picking. They will need to trade up to get their man.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:05 AM   #84
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Instincts just doesn't cut it when Gronkowski or Graham, Gonzalez or even Heath Miller is streaking down the seam. You can't have a guy out there responsible for covering a tight end, especially in nickel situations and rely on the tight end running a route down the middle that is not a go. Spikes and Te'o may be able to cheat in zone coverage enough to not be an outright liability, but in man coverage their athletic limitations make them easy targets.

The reason Spikes was targeted only twice against the Colts is that the Colts do not pass on the inside much.
So if I go look at Andrew Luck's split stats I won't see 872 yards passing on 101 attempts and a 92.5 QB rating for passes in the middle of the field right?
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:08 AM   #85
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I could also see the Broncos going TE also though. Elway may have plan to build an unstoppable passing game. Shore up oline, hof QB, HOF slot wr, a stud young wr, a very good 2nd young wr already in place. You add a TE that requires defenses to assign a great player to cover him and this offense could be unstoppable. How would you give a safety to help against DT, and still then cover Welker, Decker and a stud TE. Manning would have a great player 1 on 1 whenever he wanted.
TE in the draft simply aint gonna happen. We'll be playing in many more 3WR/1TE sets and we already have 4 TE's under contract. Plus we got some guys there that are reliable and can play. There are bigger needs.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:10 AM   #86
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Te'o would be a good acquisition, who will probably be an NFL starter for a long time and possibly a Pro Bowler.

However, the Broncos screwed away their opportunity to draft him when they released Dumervil.

Best Available DE at #28. Better believe teams will be looking to jump ahead of the Broncos because they know what we will be picking. They will need to trade up to get their man.


Yeah, the Broncos "screwed away" their opportunity. You make it sound like Faxgate was their choice. They were not going to overpay Doom. If you called that screwing yourself then so be it. But you would be one of the few who think that. Just so you know.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:15 AM   #87
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That is only half as many as JJ Watt who plays 3-4 DE and 40 front DT.... what is your point?
That Spikes isn't the DPOY?
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:23 AM   #88
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Yeah, the Broncos "screwed away" their opportunity. You make it sound like Faxgate was their choice. They were not going to overpay Doom. If you called that screwing yourself then so be it. But you would be one of the few who think that. Just so you know.
The Broncos also made an unfortunate move by spending critical FA $ on Terrance Knighton. They should have moved Derek Wolfe to UT, and started either Ayers or Jackson at strongside DE (also keeping Dumervil).

Right now, they basically have starters that can't generate any pressure from the positions they are playing (except Von...who will be triple-teamed).

The Broncos miscalculated the cost of Freeney (they thought they could get him for cheap because of Manning), and JDR influenced them to sign a non-pass-rushing Terrance Knighton.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:30 AM   #89
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JDR is to LB's as Mike Shanahan is to Offensive Lineman. They think they can turn any mid to late round selection into a Pro Bowler.

JDR thinks because he was an LB, he can "coach 'em up" to play at an adequate level. But in reality, he has to have huge, nominally talented DT's (who can't pass rush), just to make up for his weakness at LB.

Now we are stuck with a strictly run-stopping DL (Wolfe and Ayers out of position), with ZERO pass-rush, unless you bring a 5-th man (Von Miller) to the line...and they have to spend a 1st round draft pick on a REAL 4-3 DE...all the while addressing none of the deficiencies that lead to defensive breakdowns in 2012 (except replacing Porter with DRC).
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:33 AM   #90
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The Broncos also made an unfortunate move by spending critical FA $ on Terrance Knighton. They should have moved Derek Wolfe to UT
? Do you think Knighton was brought in to play UT on passing/nickle downs? That's Wolfe. They play 2 completely different roles.

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Right now, they basically have starters that can't generate any pressure from the positions they are playing (except Von...who will be triple-teamed).
Wolfe showed plenty of ability to create pressure from the inside last year. And how are teams going to triple team Miller when they don't know where he will be coming from on a down-to-down basis?


JDR has a VERY successful history with guys like Stroud, Henderson, Alualu, and of course, Knighton. I will trust his judgment over an OM poster.

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Old 03-29-2013, 11:35 AM   #91
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Just because DE is a huge need doesn't mean that's the route we go at 28. BPA only unless players you like have similar grade then draft need.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:07 PM   #92
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Instincts just doesn't cut it when Gronkowski or Graham, Gonzalez or even Heath Miller is streaking down the seam. You can't have a guy out there responsible for covering a tight end, especially in nickel situations and rely on the tight end running a route down the middle that is not a go. Spikes and Te'o may be able to cheat in zone coverage enough to not be an outright liability, but in man coverage their athletic limitations make them easy targets.

The reason Spikes was targeted only twice against the Colts is that the Colts do not pass on the inside much.
Basically your argument is predicated on the what if we are playing an elite TE like Gronkowski that a guy like Manti would be a liability. The problem with that argument is there are maybe 5 truly elite receiving TEs in the NFL. and those 5 embarass just about everyone they matchup with. It makes no sense to say no to a guy based on the assumption he could have trouble covering a level of talebt he might see maybe 3 times a year.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:14 PM   #93
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? Do you think Knighton was brought in to play UT on passing/nickle downs? That's Wolfe. They play 2 completely different roles.
1st and 2nd down are passing downs too. The fact is, the Broncos need a DT who can consistently collapse the pocket in the base Defense (Wolfe has the ability, we'll see about Knighton). Wolfe has not shown the ability to pass rush from LDE, and I question Ayers ability at RDE.


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? Wolfe showed plenty of ability to create pressure from the inside last year. And how are teams going to triple team Miller when they don't know where he will be coming from on a down-to-down basis?
Miller will line up at either RDE or LDE, it ain't rocket science. All you need to do is send a TE in motion, and use RB help.


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? JDR has a VERY successful history with guys like Stroud, Henderson, Alualu, and of course, Knighton. I will trust his judgment over an OM poster.
Tom Coughlin drafted both Stroud and Henderson. JDR was able to reap the rewards of both All-Pro DT's for several years. Once they left, his Defense went to the dumpster. Comparing Knighton and Vickerson to Stroud and Henderson is laughable.

At least Fox/JDR know that you MUST be able to stop the run to even have a chance at having a good Defense (which the Broncos were able to do in 2012). I guess you can't fault them for shoring up DT as much as they could. I just hate that this team is always "a player away".

Count me un-enthused about what they are pushing out there at MLB and SS (two positions that should have been addressed in this draft)

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Old 03-29-2013, 12:18 PM   #94
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So if I go look at Andrew Luck's split stats I won't see 872 yards passing on 101 attempts and a 92.5 QB rating for passes in the middle of the field right?
And you will undoubtedly also see that those passes on average went for 16 yards per completion meaning a LOT of those passes were thrown behind the linebackers.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:24 PM   #95
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JDR is to LB's as Mike Shanahan is to Offensive Lineman. They think they can turn any mid to late round selection into a Pro Bowler.

JDR thinks because he was an LB, he can "coach 'em up" to play at an adequate level. But in reality, he has to have huge, nominally talented DT's (who can't pass rush), just to make up for his weakness at LB.

Now we are stuck with a strictly run-stopping DL (Wolfe and Ayers out of position), with ZERO pass-rush, unless you bring a 5-th man (Von Miller) to the line...and they have to spend a 1st round draft pick on a REAL 4-3 DE...all the while addressing none of the deficiencies that lead to defensive breakdowns in 2012 (except replacing Porter with DRC).
You are being overly dramatic as usual. If Knighten helps take up two 2 blockers, and Vickerson absorbs another blocker, that's 3 olinemen on 2 DTs. This means 2 olineman who have to block the remaining 2 or 3 defensive lineman (if Von plays up on the line). That's a mismatch right there. Next thing the opposing offense will have to do is bring in a TE to contain the pass rush. Fine, that eliminates one threat and tasks that position to block. Right there Knighten has done his job.

One of the DEs or the UTs like Vickerson or Wolfe or Jackson or Beal or draft pick or whoever will have a better opportunity to pressure the QB. Add in the fact that #58 may get missed in a blitz pickup or something like this and again, you create pressure on the opposing QB.

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Old 03-29-2013, 12:40 PM   #96
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And you will undoubtedly also see that those passes on average went for 16 yards per completion meaning a LOT of those passes were thrown behind the linebackers.
Were the 328 pass attempts that either went behind the line or between 1-10 yards thrown behind the linebackers?

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Old 03-29-2013, 12:43 PM   #97
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Price, Price, Price.. I don't know why you forget this time and time again.. Our defense may be a 4-3, but it's a 3-4 in disguise. Our DTs Knighton, Vickerson, and include Wolfe, two gap. The RE is just a pass rusher with edge responsibility same with Miller.
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:43 PM   #98
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I think teo is a hugely overrated p***Y, but I could totally see this happening
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:05 PM   #99
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The Broncos also made an unfortunate move by spending critical FA $ on Terrance Knighton. They should have moved Derek Wolfe to UT, and started either Ayers or Jackson at strongside DE (also keeping Dumervil).

Right now, they basically have starters that can't generate any pressure from the positions they are playing (except Von...who will be triple-teamed).

The Broncos miscalculated the cost of Freeney (they thought they could get him for cheap because of Manning), and JDR influenced them to sign a non-pass-rushing Terrance Knighton.
I'm glad you're not our GM
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Old 03-29-2013, 04:45 PM   #100
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1st and 2nd down are passing downs too. The fact is, the Broncos need a DT who can consistently collapse the pocket in the base Defense (Wolfe has the ability, we'll see about Knighton). Wolfe has not shown the ability to pass rush from LDE, and I question Ayers ability at RDE.
as stated earlier, Knighton is used completely differently than Wolfe. He's not a UT. JDR's D isn't predicated on utilizing a traditional 4-3 1 tech/NT and a 3 tech/UT. So, again, I think it's probably best to defer to the guy who is running the d and has had a lot of success with said scheme.

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Comparing Knighton and Vickerson to Stroud and Henderson is laughable.
yeah, what does that have to do with anything I posted?

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Miller will line up at either RDE or LDE, it ain't rocket science. All you need to do is send a TE in motion, and use RB help.
Miller is used as a DE quite a bit, but he's moved all around--even in nickle situations. Your scenario right here is a far cry from 'constantly facing triple teams' as you stated earlier. Miller faced plenty of chips from TEs and RBs last 2 years and fared well. If teams do decide they want to constantly triple team Von, well have fun with that. Unless they are in max protect, there's a good chance someone is getting off a block pretty quick. Even if his name isn't Doom.

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