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Old 04-05-2013, 05:46 AM   #551
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No need to be sorry. You're wrong but nothing to apologize for
Can Carter be a starting caliber corner in this league? As someone who also liked Janoris Jenkins and mocked him to us, I would think you would be able to see talent and lack of talent at CB. Throughout the year I watched Carter allow plays to happen because he lacked awareness and an understanding of what routes would be options given the down, distance, and mechanics of the WR. He had a HUGE pass interference penalty and in the next play Champ got burned for a deep TD in the playoffs of all times. He was able to use some speed and latch on to WRs, but he can't hang with anyone savvy. I think he's a dime corner at best, maybe could play in the nickel but I don't think he's anywhere near physical enough.
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:58 AM   #552
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Can Carter be a starting caliber corner in this league? As someone who also liked Janoris Jenkins and mocked him to us, I would think you would be able to see talent and lack of talent at CB. Throughout the year I watched Carter allow plays to happen because he lacked awareness and an understanding of what routes would be options given the down, distance, and mechanics of the WR. He had a HUGE pass interference penalty and in the next play Champ got burned for a deep TD in the playoffs of all times. He was able to use some speed and latch on to WRs, but he can't hang with anyone savvy. I think he's a dime corner at best, maybe could play in the nickel but I don't think he's anywhere near physical enough.
The PI you refer to was 1000% a BS call (one of many on the day).

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Old 04-05-2013, 06:15 AM   #553
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I honestly think Carter expected a shorter route with 3rd and 3.
This is a huge point that gets completely overlooked. IIRC the previous two plays were underneath stuff to Pitta, one a hit and one a miss. They needed a first down so a low percentage, down the field play was completely unexpected. That doesn't excuse what happened but I think it's a major reason why it did.
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:21 AM   #554
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Can Carter be a starting caliber corner in this league? As someone who also liked Janoris Jenkins and mocked him to us, I would think you would be able to see talent and lack of talent at CB. Throughout the year I watched Carter allow plays to happen because he lacked awareness and an understanding of what routes would be options given the down, distance, and mechanics of the WR. He had a HUGE pass interference penalty and in the next play Champ got burned for a deep TD in the playoffs of all times. He was able to use some speed and latch on to WRs, but he can't hang with anyone savvy. I think he's a dime corner at best, maybe could play in the nickel but I don't think he's anywhere near physical enough.
He CAN be. Carter was a Tramon Williams clone last year and made a very good number of big plays from man coverage situations.

That being said, I want him and Harris both to continue being the pleasant surprise and not the 'plan'
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:44 AM   #555
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He CAN be. Carter was a Tramon Williams clone last year and made a very good number of big plays from man coverage situations.

That being said, I want him and Harris both to continue being the pleasant surprise and not the 'plan'
I fully agree with the second part of your post!

I think Carter was typically matched with a slower player he was able to easily run with, I don't think he has any man to man coverage skills and would not put him in the same mold as Tramon Williams.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:56 AM   #556
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This is a huge point that gets completely overlooked. IIRC the previous two plays were underneath stuff to Pitta, one a hit and one a miss. They needed a first down so a low percentage, down the field play was completely unexpected. That doesn't excuse what happened but I think it's a major reason why it did.
Are you talking about the Rahim Moore drive? They didnt go to pita twice. 1st down they did incomplete. 2nd down flacco scrambled for 7 yards. When there's seconds left in a game with no timeouts and you gotta go 70 yards? No time to dink and dunk on a 3rd down. It's 4 down territory. I could see on a 4th down you go under to get the 1st, but you have to take shots down the field when there's no timeouts and seconds left
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:30 AM   #557
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Are you talking about the Rahim Moore drive? They didnt go to pita twice. 1st down they did incomplete. 2nd down flacco scrambled for 7 yards. When there's seconds left in a game with no timeouts and you gotta go 70 yards? No time to dink and dunk on a 3rd down. It's 4 down territory. I could see on a 4th down you go under to get the 1st, but you have to take shots down the field when there's no timeouts and seconds left
No I think it was their first long TD bomb right after our punt return TD
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:36 AM   #558
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Are you talking about the Rahim Moore drive? They didnt go to pita twice. 1st down they did incomplete. 2nd down flacco scrambled for 7 yards. When there's seconds left in a game with no timeouts and you gotta go 70 yards? No time to dink and dunk on a 3rd down. It's 4 down territory. I could see on a 4th down you go under to get the 1st, but you have to take shots down the field when there's no timeouts and seconds left
The 1st down pass was incomplete to Pitta, the 2nd down was a Flacco scramble where it appeared that Pitta was his primary target but he was well covered. But the way the Broncos reacted on that 3rd down disaster I still don't think they were expecting a desperation long ball (which is really what that pass was).

Found this on IAOFM:

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In this case, it makes reasonable sense to expect the Ravens to first try and chunk off about fifteen to twenty yards in the middle of the field, then take a much longer shot downfield.

This is exactly what they had tried on the previous two downs, when Flacco had tried to connect with Dennis Pitta. On first down, Pitta slipped; on second down, Pitta wasn't open. So it's quite likely that Moore is expecting more of the same. After all, who would take a shot downfield without absolutely needing to, and especially while needing three yards for a first down?
http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/bron...-game-tying-td
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:37 AM   #559
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So Tony Carter played the worst of all the Broncos corners against the Ravens?
Actually, this comment brings up a very good point, that I haven't thought of before...

1. The Broncos knew Flacco had a MUCH better completion percentage on deep right bombs, than deep left bombs. They even mentioned it before the game.
2. Champ is the #1 HOF'er CB, and played as LCB all year.
3. Jacoby Jones isn't the WR threat of a Torrey Smith, but Flacco didn't complete anything down the left sideline ALL GAME LONG.

Why did the Broncos have Champ mirror Torrey Smith on the weakside?

Champ should have been playing at LCB. That actually is a fairly massive coaching failure on JDR/Milus. Carter should not have been in that position to begin with. The Broncos coaches got faked out.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:48 AM   #560
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Actually, this comment brings up a very good point, that I haven't thought of before...

1. The Broncos knew Flacco had a MUCH better completion percentage on deep right bombs, than deep left bombs. They even mentioned it before the game.
2. Champ is the #1 HOF'er CB, and played as LCB all year.
3. Jacoby Jones isn't the WR threat of a Torrey Smith, but Flacco didn't complete anything down the left sideline ALL GAME LONG.

Why did the Broncos have Champ mirror Torrey Smith on the weakside?

Champ should have been playing at LCB. That actually is a fairly massive coaching failure on JDR/Milus. Carter should not have been in that position to begin with. The Broncos coaches got faked out.
No, this is absurd. The Broncos didn't get outschemed. Their players ****ed up epically not doing the simplest of simple jobs.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:48 AM   #561
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The 1st down pass was incomplete to Pitta, the 2nd down was a Flacco scramble where it appeared that Pitta was his primary target but he was well covered. But the way the Broncos reacted on that 3rd down disaster I still don't think they were expecting a desperation long ball (which is really what that pass was).

Found this on IAOFM:

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/bron...-game-tying-td


Gotcha. Although if flacco sees Carter getting beat and Moore biting it no longer becomes a desperation throw, but rather a great field vision reading what the defense gives you type of throw.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:27 AM   #562
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OMG. Seriously.

This is going back to the damn play! Good to see nothing has changed. I just wish the OM would learn, but I am an idiot for thinking things will ever cahnge around here
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:33 AM   #563
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OMG. Seriously.

This is going back to the damn play! Good to see nothing has changed. I just wish the OM would learn, but I am an idiot for thinking things will ever cahnge around here
You have to expect people to post about it when someone mentions that it was Carter's fault not Moore.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:16 AM   #564
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You have to expect people to post about it when someone mentions that it was Carter's fault not Moore.
I didn't. Le-Lo brought it up out of the blue from nowhere, because he was trying to gang up on me for saying the Broncos need to target a DE early in the draft. Here's his original post three pages ago:

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And Rahim Moore was reading the run on his gaffe play, and was told to have underneath coverage. It was ALL Tony Carter's fault!

He denies saying this, but he did.
The moron is referencing a thread that is 3 months old. Without the gang mentality (that many Omane posters have) people like Son of Le-Lo Lang wouldn't have much to say.

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Old 04-05-2013, 10:28 AM   #565
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I didn't. Le-Lo brought it up out of the blue from nowhere, because he was trying to gang up on me (with Bmore) for saying the Broncos need to target a DE early in the draft. Here's his original post:



The moron is referencing a thread that is 3 months old. Without the gang mentality (that many Omane posters have) people like Son of Le-Lo Lang wouldn't have much to say.
I brought it up "out of the blue" as an example of why I don't trust a word you say.

I love talking football. Love it. What I can't stand is when know it all's like you consistently self promote ("I called this!" "This is what I said") and make outlandish statements as if they're true. "We have to trade up to 22 to get So-and-So or we're SCREWED!"

I appreciate your passion for football. I do. I think you're terrible at getting your points across and often fight tooth and nail over nonsense. And I have this thing about fighting back when you call me things like "moron." Perhaps that's my fault.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:53 AM   #566
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I think people forget the fact that Carter has only 22 games under his belt despite being in the NFL for 4 seasons. His was the first year he has appeared in more then 3 games in a season. I want to see what he has gained in experience from last year before I run him out of town.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:55 AM   #567
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I brought it up "out of the blue" as an example of why I don't trust a word you say.

I love talking football. Love it. What I can't stand is when know it all's like you consistently self promote ("I called this!" "This is what I said") and make outlandish statements as if they're true. "We have to trade up to 22 to get So-and-So or we're SCREWED!"

I appreciate your passion for football. I do. I think you're terrible at getting your points across and often fight tooth and nail over nonsense. And I have this thing about fighting back when you call me things like "moron." Perhaps that's my fault.
You told me to "get ****ed" first. I only respond with insults when they are thrown at me. And I don't gang up on people. Eye for an eye.

I don't know it all, and never claimed to. I told you (after you brought it up AGAIN), in my view Carter's screw up was more damning than Moore's. You won't leave me alone about it. So I show you, step by step evidence of Broncos FO actions that support my statement. If you still don't agree, fine. Just quit hounding me.

I posted once, that I think the Broncos should trade up as high as 22 to target a complete DE. I don't think Ayers is an impact player. I also think D. Moore and Carradine will be gone by #28. It's my opinion. If you don't share the opinion, that's okay. I wouldn't expect you too. I don't care if you "trust a damn word" I say, or not. Gleaning from a couple other posters, and doing some of my own research, I figure the Broncos could get by if they drafted Jamie Collins, or John Simon in round 2 (if they miss out in round 1). So there's an update for ya.

If the Broncos don't draft a DE in the 1st or 2nd round, the are SCREWED.

If you don't agree with that, go ahead. But I bet you the Broncos draft a DE. If you insult me, gang up, and harass me about my opinion, then come back 3 months later (after the Broncos draft a DE), and call me out again. Guaranteed, I will say "told ya so!".
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:11 AM   #568
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You told me to "get ****ed" first. I only respond with insults when they are thrown at me. And I don't gang up on people. Eye for an eye.

I don't know it all, and never claimed to. I told you (after you brought it up AGAIN), in my view Carter's screw up was more damning than Moore's. You won't leave me alone about it. So I show you, step by step evidence of Broncos FO actions that support my statement. If you still don't agree, fine. Just quit hounding me.

I posted once, that I think the Broncos should trade up as high as 22 to target a complete DE. I don't think Ayers is an impact player. I also think D. Moore and Carradine will be gone by #28. It's my opinion. If you don't share the opinion, that's okay. I wouldn't expect you too. I don't care if you "trust a damn word" I say, or not. Gleaning from a couple other posters, and doing some of my own research, I figure the Broncos could get by if they drafted Jamie Collins, or John Simon in round 2 (if they miss out in round 1). So there's an update for ya.

If the Broncos don't draft a DE in the 1st or 2nd round, the are SCREWED.

If you don't agree with that, go ahead. But I bet you the Broncos draft a DE. If you insult me, gang up, and harass me about my opinion, then come back 3 months later (after the Broncos draft a DE), and call me out again. Guaranteed, I will say "told ya so!".
I told you to get ****ed after some condescending remark was lobbed my way. If you didnt mean it that way, then i apologize.

I dont think anyone believes the Broncos will stand pat at DE right now, regardless of what's coming out of the front office. I agree we will draft a DE (i like Simon too, and your boy Moore), and I think we'll sign a vet pass rusher as well. What I don't agree with is the arbitrary 22 draft slot as some kind of concrete number.

And i'll never agree with you that it was more Carter's fault. Rahim had one job. Don't let Jones get by him. And he did just that. We can officially agree to disagree
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:13 AM   #569
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Actually, this comment brings up a very good point, that I haven't thought of before...

1. The Broncos knew Flacco had a MUCH better completion percentage on deep right bombs, than deep left bombs. They even mentioned it before the game.
2. Champ is the #1 HOF'er CB, and played as LCB all year.
3. Jacoby Jones isn't the WR threat of a Torrey Smith, but Flacco didn't complete anything down the left sideline ALL GAME LONG.

Why did the Broncos have Champ mirror Torrey Smith on the weakside?

Champ should have been playing at LCB. That actually is a fairly massive coaching failure on JDR/Milus. Carter should not have been in that position to begin with. The Broncos coaches got faked out.
Maybe because Torry Smith is one of the fastest WR in the NFL and their best player. Makes sense to stick your best defender on their best offensive weapon and make the 3rd string WR beat you.

Just think of the backlash if Smith beats Tony Carter for the 70 yard bomb.
JDR would be out of a job right now.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:23 AM   #570
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He had a HUGE pass interference penalty and in the next play Champ got burned for a deep TD in the playoffs of all times.
the ref called interference, but it was a terrible call. it was nowhere near pass interference.

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I think people forget the fact that Carter has only 22 games under his belt despite being in the NFL for 4 seasons. His was the first year he has appeared in more then 3 games in a season. I want to see what he has gained in experience from last year before I run him out of town.
agreed

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Old 04-05-2013, 11:52 AM   #571
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I told you to get ****ed after some condescending remark was lobbed my way. If you didnt mean it that way, then i apologize.
No apology necessary. Here's the post I made:
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Rahim Moore took two steps forward at the snap. I believe he was looking for something underneath before he released and backpedaled. Not sure if he was coached to do that, or not. Milus was fired shortly thereafter. Watch the tape.
I guess you were pissed that I said "watch the tape", which turned out to be wrong anyway, because the GIF I was watching made it look like he took two steps forward. I went back and watched the game video, and he was actually backpedaling. So it's a dead issue, I was wrong.


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I dont think anyone believes the Broncos will stand pat at DE right now, regardless of what's coming out of the front office. I agree we will draft a DE (i like Simon too, and your boy Moore), and I think we'll sign a vet pass rusher as well. What I don't agree with is the arbitrary 22 draft slot as some kind of concrete number.
I never meant "22" to be a concrete number. I just figure that's about how high we can get if we trade up with our 4th rounder. I don't advocate it, but we have the 4th as ammo if necessary. If the pickings start getting thin in the 1st round, they might want to make a move. Leaving DE until #58 is real dicey.

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And i'll never agree with you that it was more Carter's fault. Rahim had one job. Don't let Jones get by him. And he did just that. We can officially agree to disagree
I know Rahim's job. I played Safety in Jr. High, and got burned deep in the championship game for about 7 TD's. It sucked. I remember the coach yelling at me to get back, I just wasn't fast enough...but I tried. That's kinda why I feel bad for Rahim. Plus, I don't think the Broncos have any better options, so I won't throw him under the bus.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:16 PM   #572
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No apology necessary. Here's the post I made:


I guess you were pissed that I said "watch the tape", which turned out to be wrong anyway, because the GIF I was watching made it look like he took two steps forward. I went back and watched the game video, and he was actually backpedaling. So it's a dead issue, I was wrong.




I never meant "22" to be a concrete number. I just figure that's about how high we can get if we trade up with our 4th rounder. I don't advocate it, but we have the 4th as ammo if necessary. If the pickings start getting thin in the 1st round, they might want to make a move. Leaving DE until #58 is real dicey.



I know Rahim's job. I played Safety in Jr. High, and got burned deep in the championship game for about 7 TD's. It sucked. I remember the coach yelling at me to get back, I just wasn't fast enough...but I tried. That's kinda why I feel bad for Rahim. Plus, I don't think the Broncos have any better options, so I won't throw him under the bus.
I'm not even one throwing him under the bus. It was his **** up, it happens. I never advocated cutting him. He's athletic enough to play the spot, unlike you in Jr High!

I actually missed a field goal against our rival in the final seconds of a game my senior year, and I still hear about it like 16 years later.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:30 PM   #573
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I'm not even one throwing him under the bus. It was his **** up, it happens. I never advocated cutting him. He's athletic enough to play the spot, unlike you in Jr High!

I actually missed a field goal against our rival in the final seconds of a game my senior year, and I still hear about it like 16 years later.
In my defense, I was the meanest 85 lbs. 8th grade Safety that you would ever meet...and I was 12 years old, while the other kids were 14.

Sucks, about your FG. Oh well. Bet you have a lot more good memories about HS/Jr. High sports than bad ones. Jr. High football was the funnest sport I ever played, by far. We still got 2nd in league, which was good for a bunch of rag-tag shrimps.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:42 PM   #574
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I'm not even one throwing him under the bus. It was his **** up, it happens. I never advocated cutting him. He's athletic enough to play the spot, unlike you in Jr High!

I actually missed a field goal against our rival in the final seconds of a game my senior year, and I still hear about it like 16 years later.
You need to do what Robin Williams did in The Best Of Times. Get everyone back together and replay the game. Maybe this time you make the kick loser!
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:01 PM   #575
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