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Old 03-26-2013, 07:36 AM   #151
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The closer we get to April the more my preference shifts to trading down and trying to gather an extra 2nd/3rd round pick (unless some exceptional value slid and is staring us in the face).
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:41 AM   #152
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The closer we get to April the more my preference shifts to trading down and trying to gather an extra 2nd/3rd round pick (unless some exceptional value slid and is staring us in the face).
This is exactly how I feel. I've been compiling a spread sheet of ADV (average draft value) of prospects in mocks -- and I see a lot of players at positions we could address (LB, DB, S, RB) falling in the #28-#40 range. It makes sense, because that is where the value for a lot of those guys are anyways. The prospects a lot of us have been talking about since the get go.

I read an article the other day saying that Denver opted to trade down last year because they had only roughly ~ 20 guys with first round grades and wanted to get out. I assume we will stay if we have a high rated guy on our board, but I think that moving down would be a smart option. I just hope that if we do move down, we don't mortgage that value and move back up in the middle rounds like we did last year for Ronnie and I believe Bolden. . .
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:12 AM   #153
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I've already broke down Elam's game a billion times on the forum. If you think the Broncos need to use their #28 selection on a stiff-hipped, box safety in the NFL who consistently gets flagged for penalties, has poor tackling form (would rather murder a person on the field than wrap up) and is almost always one step late in coverage (hence him going for the big hit) be my guest.

If you watched any of the combine, read about his pro day or even watched his snaps this season (go to draftbreakdown.com and see it for yourself) -- you would get what I am talking about. Though, I assume you are a Gators fan and would rather be a homer than objectively critique a player on "your team."

He is not a complete player, nor what this defense needs on the back end of the field. I'm not the only one who feels this way either. Ask Mediator. Ask a bunch of other well-respected fans of college football and the draft.

His coverage awareness is not good. Do you really think that a 5'9 safety is going to be able to cover tight ends at the next level? This is where he excels in college, being able to be physical and press his man from getting off the line. Do you think that is honestly going to carry over in the NFL when he lines up next to Jimmy Graham, Rob Gronkowski, etc.? HELL NO. He is a mismatch waiting to happen. We already have a safety who fails to break on the ball in zone coverages because he lacks the mentality and instincts to do so consistently. Do you really want another guy who is going to get beat like that? Give me a break.

The best thing I can say about him is he gives great effort against the run and is extremely physical for his size. He also has a passion for the game and inspires people. Though, I'd prefer a player who can PLAY than a cheerleader.

Anyone who is advocating Elam @ #28 just simply does not understand how to evaluate a defensive back properly or understand what draft value is all about.
The Gators are one of my least favorite teams in all of college sports. Clearly your own fandom influences your takes, but I don't really care about any college team, just the players that might help the Broncos. Elam would do that.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:20 AM   #154
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The Gators are one of my least favorite teams in all of college sports. Clearly your own fandom influences your takes, but I don't really care about any college team, just the players that might help the Broncos. Elam would do that.
Me being a Seminoles fan has nothing to do with my opinion on Elam. I happen to like a handful of Gators prospects this year and like Josh Evans at S.

Great argument for Elam, BTW. Sound analysis. "He might help the Broncos."

That is like dribbling a grounder to a second basemen. You can do better than that.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:22 AM   #155
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The closer we get to April the more my preference shifts to trading down and trying to gather an extra 2nd/3rd round pick (unless some exceptional value slid and is staring us in the face).
Yeah, I'm going to third this opinion shared by Rev and Req. It all depends on whom is there of course, but outside of Eddie Lacy for me, most positions in this draft are plenty deep with top talent.

I really like Lacy at RB, I don't think anyone else is close. Tank Carradine and Datone Jones would be hard to trade back on as well depending on what happens with Freeney. I've cooled on Minter and Te'o after digging into Jon Bostic's tape. I think he's just as good and can be had in Round 2. I like the Safeties likely to be available in Round 3 as much as I do the guys talked about in Round 1.

So, if Lacy is gone, and we just don't need a DE, at that point trading back, or maybe even trading away for a first round pick next year would be ideal.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:33 AM   #156
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I'm starting to warm up to Lacy, but need to watch more of him. Fox has taken backs high before, so I wouldn't doubt him believing a guy like Lacy (who would be thunder here) is what we need for the offense to become ridiculously awesome.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:42 AM   #157
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Anyone who is advocating Elam @ #28 just simply does not understand how to evaluate a defensive back properly or understand what draft value is all about.
Pretty arrogant comment given that basically every evaluator has Elam rated as the 2nd best safety in the class (behind Vacarro) and most give him anywhere from a late 1st to (at worst) mid 2nd round grade. So, if you think 28 is too early, fine, but it's not a huge reach at all. But I guess those other evaluators don't know how to evaluate DBs and you do? I respect your opinion and passion for the draft, but a lot of people like what they see from Elam who know how to evaluate DBs just fine. Beauty is in the eye, etc.

That being said, my preference is to trade down as well. Rumors are floating that Buffalo is looking to move up from #41 into the bottom of the 1st for Nassib. If true, that would put us in a good spot to reap the benefits.

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:55 AM   #158
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I will go apeschit if we draft a kicker with the #28 pick...
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:05 AM   #159
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I'm starting to warm up to Lacy, but need to watch more of him. Fox has taken backs high before, so I wouldn't doubt him believing a guy like Lacy (who would be thunder here) is what we need for the offense to become ridiculously awesome.
Denver will move around in the draft and get Lacy and T'eo. I have this feeling.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:19 AM   #160
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Pretty arrogant comment given that basically every evaluator has Elam rated as the 2nd best safety in the class (behind Vacarro) and most give him anywhere from a late 1st to (at worst) mid 2nd round grade.
I've seen a lot of places where he isn't the second or third best guy at safety -- including FS and SS projections. I have also seen him in the third round, but do believe he will go in the second. I have not seen many with him being one of the Top 32 players in this draft. And FWIW, boards are still fluid for a lot of people and are being finalized.

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So, if you think 28 is too early, fine, but it's not a huge reach at all. But I guess those other evaluators don't know how to evaluate DBs and you do? I respect your opinion and passion for the draft, but a lot of people like what they see from Elam who know how to evaluate DBs just fine. Beauty is in the eye, etc.
It is too early. Why take a guy at #28 who is not better than his peers enough to merit such a selection? My criticisms of Elam are quite easy to understand and I think they are very fair assessments. I'm not the only one who worries about his size, tackling ability and how he presents himself in coverage. Those are the primary reasons he IS NOT a first round pick, but why people view him in the second.

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That being said, my preference is to trade down as well. Rumors are floating that Buffalo is looking to move up from #41 into the bottom of the 1st for Nassib. If true, that would put us in a good spot to reap the benefits.
Agreed.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:23 AM   #161
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Yeah, I'm going to third this opinion shared by Rev and Req. It all depends on whom is there of course, but outside of Eddie Lacy for me, most positions in this draft are plenty deep with top talent.

I really like Lacy at RB, I don't think anyone else is close. Tank Carradine and Datone Jones would be hard to trade back on as well depending on what happens with Freeney. I've cooled on Minter and Te'o after digging into Jon Bostic's tape. I think he's just as good and can be had in Round 2. I like the Safeties likely to be available in Round 3 as much as I do the guys talked about in Round 1.

So, if Lacy is gone, and we just don't need a DE, at that point trading back, or maybe even trading away for a first round pick next year would be ideal.
I am still heavily leaning towards Ogletree or Brown at MLB in the 1st round, I just don't think we can go into the season with Johnson and Irving at that position and think everything is peachy. For better or worse we need a player who can contribute and outside of MLB or RB I don't see that happening.

I am not a big fan of Lacy, he is not a good pass blocker and in fact not even a passable one which will limit his value a lot, he doesn't have the speed to be a game changer in the NFL and he is not a guy you can rely to catch the ball. I like his power but he looks like a guy who belongs in a simplified power run offense where all he has to do is lug the ball around.
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:32 AM   #162
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:37 AM   #163
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haha good screen grab
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:01 PM   #164
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:23 PM   #165
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Denver has how many starters we are replacing on D, one or two? Replacing one position isn't going to be as hard as you think man. The Ravens tried to play hard ass with a HOF team captain and original Raven in Ed Reed and now have have to replace two HOF team leaders instead of one. What do you think will be harder to replace HOF MLB and HOF S or a pass rushing RDE?
On D we are replacing 3-4 starters: MLB, DT, RDE and possibly SS. Of those positions we only currently have a player who can take over DT, we are still short an RDE and a MLB at least, even if Quinton Carter can beat his felony charge and start at SS.

The Ravens will be replacing a MLB who was picked apart in the super bowl, absolutely mercilessly. Ed Reed will be a loss but it was a decision the team made and Reed was definitely not the dominant player he was a few years ago. Kruger was and is a mediocre pass rusher who didn't manage to consistently set the the edge against the run - while he was a better run defender than Dumervil is it is not much as much as you make it out to be and he was nowhere near the pass rusher.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:40 PM   #166
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On D we are replacing 3-4 starters: MLB, DT, RDE and possibly SS. Of those positions we only currently have a player who can take over DT, we are still short an RDE and a MLB at least, even if Quinton Carter can beat his felony charge and start at SS.

The Ravens will be replacing a MLB who was picked apart in the super bowl, absolutely mercilessly. Ed Reed will be a loss but it was a decision the team made and Reed was definitely not the dominant player he was a few years ago. Kruger was and is a mediocre pass rusher who didn't manage to consistently set the the edge against the run - while he was a better run defender than Dumervil is it is not much as much as you make it out to be and he was nowhere near the pass rusher.
Kruger (who has been replaced), Lewis, Polland, Dannell Ellerbe, Cary Williams, and Ed Reed are all gone from the Ravens.
Bannan (who has been replaced), Dumervil, and Brooking are gone from Denver. Carter doesn't matter since he didn't play last year.
Hmmm which team has more work to do

You are flat out drunk to think that the leadership of Lewis didn't matter and isn't a loss at all for the Ravens. Equally as drunk to think that Doom isn't that far of a drop off in run D as Kruger. If that was the case then the Ravens wouldn't have said they are taking Doom off the field during run downs in favor of Upshaw. The Ravens lost TWO HOF players. Really I have no idea how you feel like that is just isn't a big deal.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:48 PM   #167
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Also I might add that the Ravens also added Chris Canty and Marcus Spears who are projected to be two more new starters on that D. Allowing Haloti Ngata to move to NT. That is a lot of change over on that D.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:57 PM   #168
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Kruger (who has been replaced), Lewis, Polland, Dannell Ellerbe, Cary Williams, and Ed Reed are all gone from the Ravens.
Bannan (who has been replaced), Dumervil, and Brooking are gone from Denver. Carter doesn't matter since he didn't play last year.
Hmmm which team has more work to do

You are flat out drunk to think that the leadership of Lewis didn't matter and isn't a loss at all for the Ravens. Equally as drunk to think that Doom isn't that far of a drop off in run D as Kruger. If that was the case then the Ravens wouldn't have said they are taking Doom off the field during run downs in favor of Upshaw. The Ravens lost TWO HOF players. Really I have no idea how you feel like that is just isn't a big deal.
Elvis is a massive upgrade over Kruger

And that's coming from a big Kruger homer who even drafted him in the OM mock years ago.
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:00 PM   #169
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Elvis is a massive upgrade over Kruger

And that's coming from a big Kruger homer who even drafted him in the OM mock years ago.
At run stopping?
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:06 PM   #170
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At run stopping?
Absolutely.

...why in God's name do you think that's funny?
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:06 PM   #171
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I see the broncos drafting Jamie collins .
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:31 PM   #172
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Kruger (who has been replaced), Lewis, Polland, Dannell Ellerbe, Cary Williams, and Ed Reed are all gone from the Ravens.
Bannan (who has been replaced), Dumervil, and Brooking are gone from Denver. Carter doesn't matter since he didn't play last year.
Hmmm which team has more work to do

You are flat out drunk to think that the leadership of Lewis didn't matter and isn't a loss at all for the Ravens. Equally as drunk to think that Doom isn't that far of a drop off in run D as Kruger. If that was the case then the Ravens wouldn't have said they are taking Doom off the field during run downs in favor of Upshaw. The Ravens lost TWO HOF players. Really I have no idea how you feel like that is just isn't a big deal.
Cary Williams only played because Ladarius Webb was injured, so he doesn't need to be replaced. Jameel Mcclain will start instead of Ray Lewis, he has been a starter for that team for the last 3 years unlike Ellerbe who has started 11 games total in the last 3 seasons. At safety they have Ihedigbo who started 3 games last year and 11 games the year before who will start over Pollard. That leaves 1 MLB and 1 safety to be replaced. I am not sure who is the drunk one here.

All right, lets look at how important Ray Lewis was, he played 10 games and with him the defense gave up 2 points more than they did without him, so clearly it is not a game changing loss. We lost Brian Dawkins, in hist last season we gave up 24 points per game, the first year without him, 18 points per game. Losing a hall of famer who provides a ton of leadership but who is over the hill is not as bad as it sounds.

The Ravens can find a MLB and a safety the same way we can find a right defensive end and a MLB.

Speaking of Paul Kruger, he is such a good run defender that he in 4 years have a total of 4 stuffs, that is 10 less than Von Miller had last year and 18 less than Von Miller has in his 2 years in the league, but the same amount that Elvis Dumervil has.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:57 PM   #173
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How about....

1st rd. Carradine or Moore
2nd rd. Kiko Alonso
3rd rd. Darius Slay
4th rd. Stepfan Taylor
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:00 PM   #174
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At run stopping?
Kruger graded worst than Elvis. Elvis was our 3rd worst run stopper on our DL. Kruger was the worst run stopper on the Ravens DL. Can't remember where I read that, but it was on one of those sites with made up stats that people throw around here.

Lol, talk to any Raven fan and they can tell you they just upgraded the position by a mile all around and cheaper.
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:02 PM   #175
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Cary Williams only played because Ladarius Webb was injured, so he doesn't need to be replaced. Jameel Mcclain will start instead of Ray Lewis, he has been a starter for that team for the last 3 years unlike Ellerbe who has started 11 games total in the last 3 seasons. At safety they have Ihedigbo who started 3 games last year and 11 games the year before who will start over Pollard. That leaves 1 MLB and 1 safety to be replaced. I am not sure who is the drunk one here.

All right, lets look at how important Ray Lewis was, he played 10 games and with him the defense gave up 2 points more than they did without him, so clearly it is not a game changing loss. We lost Brian Dawkins, in hist last season we gave up 24 points per game, the first year without him, 18 points per game. Losing a hall of famer who provides a ton of leadership but who is over the hill is not as bad as it sounds.

The Ravens can find a MLB and a safety the same way we can find a right defensive end and a MLB.

Speaking of Paul Kruger, he is such a good run defender that he in 4 years have a total of 4 stuffs, that is 10 less than Von Miller had last year and 18 less than Von Miller has in his 2 years in the league, but the same amount that Elvis Dumervil has.
Cary Williams started 13 games in 2009 and 16 games for the Ravens in 2011 and 2012 so to suggest he was only playing because Webb was hurt either means Webb is always hurt and good luck with counting on him in 2013 or you are wrong. I guess the Ravens will just play a CB down then.

While you are correct that Dannell Ellerbe only started 7 games last year he played in 13 and was a big part of the rotation that had Ray Lewis and Jameel McClain. To suggest his snaps played don't need to be replaced is nuts.
http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/...2-1c126e64d977

James Ihedigbo? That dude was on three teams in three years. Honestly do you think he improves that team over Pollard He is not starting material. Just because the Pats, who could be the most desperate team for secondary help in the NFL started him 11 games in 2010 doesn't make him worth a crap.

You are wrong about the amount of players they need to replace. They lost guys that played a big % of snaps for that team.
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