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Old 03-12-2013, 09:04 AM   #51
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I said those exact same words a couple years ago about Ty warren.
Yep. I did the same with John Lynch and Brian Dawkins too. Never know what a change of scenery can do, but I believe tigers don't change their stripes. I also believe that things I did when I was 21 were not indicative of my true character a few years later.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:05 AM   #52
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Knighton I could get on board with, he would be a very solid pickup
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:05 AM   #53
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But it appears you have tunnel vision here. Yes, Freeney is a downgrade from Doom. Clearly. But with the savings (which are large) the Broncos can also address other needs. Again, right or wrong, the Broncos don't value Doom's production at $12 million. And they feel they can get more overall value for the team at that number. That overall value isn't limited to one position or player.

And yes, there is a "roster limit". But there is also a "spending limit". It's called both a salary cap and a cash budget.
I'm not the one with tunnel vision here. The argument that Doom isn't worth $12M is the obtuse outlook on this situation.

Sure, you can spend the money elsewhere, but I'm not talking Broncos football to stroke the FO's dick, so I don't just work in vague generalities of "they might spend it better". I take it to the next step and ask HOW they could possibly spend it better.

So to do that the first thing we need to do is quantify what we're losing. With Doom you're losing 10+ sacks of his own along with whatever bump he gives to Miller, Wolfe, etc. by demanding special attention from the opposing OL. The former is easy to quantify, the later is in part easy, but in other respects not so much:
1. the easy part - we know that Doom DOES help his fellow defenders out via the link you provided, his own comments, and the entire way this front seven is schemed.
2. how big is that jump? - this is hard to say but you could probably peg it in the ~5-7 sack range. Why that range? Because last year with a more typical scheme that didn't capitalize on the ability of Doom and Miller to hand off double teams Miller had 11.5 sacks. This year he had 18.5. He likely isn't an 18.5 sack guy without Doom on the other side. He's likely more comparable to the other solo elite pass rushers in the 10-15 range, safe estimate being 13. This doesn't even dig into the sacks Wolfe and the other DLs picked up thanks to the Miller/Doom tandem.

So we've got the delta between Doom and his replacements, plus 5-7 sacks. The best pass rushers on the open market are Osi Umenyiora and Dwight Freeney. Neither have broken double digit sacks in two years, so betting on more than 5-8 from either one seems like wishful thinking.

So Doom > Osi/Freeney = 3-5 sack downgrade.
Doom > anyone else not drawing double teams = 5-7 sack downgrade.

Total potential for sacks lost 8-12. How exactly are we going to replace 8-12 sacks over the course of the season with the few million we'll save replacing Doom with Osi/Freeney?

Doom isn't putting this team over the cap. Cutting DJ, Mays, etc. would easily get them under the cap and let them sign their draftees and a few frugal FAs. It's the desire to make a splash and chase Revis, DRC, and get Manning his buddy Freeney in Denver that is the motivation here. I have a hard time seeing any of those options off-setting the loss of what Doom teamed with Miller does for our pass rush.

It's a short sighted view and ignores that Doom's contract only gets more reasonable from here. The fact that the FO didn't plan for that benefit when they backed the Brinks truck up for Manning last year is the problem here, not Doom's contract or his production.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:06 AM   #54
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You shouldn't look at some of these players as direct replacements for the others, particularly in the case of Freeney. Broncos are trying to keep Vickerson. And with the overall savings from Doom they should be able to do more things than they could if they kept him. And I think "massive" is quite generally an overstatement.
Replacing Dumervil with Freeney only saves $3.8M. Not sure how many "more" things you plan on doing with that money, other than paying for McGahee's $1M in dead money after you cut him for an inferior player.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:07 AM   #55
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Last year at this time, Manning wasn't coming here, he was using the Broncos as leverage, and they'd pissed of Tebow at the same time so the season was ****ed before it even began. Oh how the Internet seers were right on that one!
Not gonna name names to start a flame war, but last year the armchair GMs solution was to keep Tebow at qb and use the money for superstuds like Jeff Saturday and Jamell McClain instead of Manning

Im sure we will see some more genius ideas and critics thrown around today
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:09 AM   #56
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Is DRC better than Porter? Not saying he isn't but I've always thought he's underachieved and had pretty much the same type of career as Porter. Obviously, he is better if he just stays on the field, but I don't think it's a dramatic upgrade. I'd like to see some comparisions between the two.
Uh, DRC has twice as many interceptions, twice as many passes defended, twice as many defensive touchdowns and is by far more an aggressive ballhawk than Porter. I think Porter might be better at tackling and putting his nose in there against the run, but DRC makes more plays in coverage and plays on the ball while they are in the air. But he has been burned before, as most people have.

When DRC was traded to the Eagles he played nickel because of the players they already had there. After Asante got dished, he became a starter there like he was in Arizona. Philly was bad this year, but I would have to think DRC can assume his Pro-Bowl potential he had in 2009 (elected) and 2010 (reserve) and would be an upgrade over Porter and allow us to figure out who works best between him and Harris at nickel (although I assume DRC is #2 and Harris would go to nickel).

I think DRC is a good signing and would be much better value than what we would have to dish out for Sean Smith. He is still 26/27 years old and gives us a long-term option past Bailey as a starter.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:11 AM   #57
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Yep. I did the same with John Lynch and Brian Dawkins too. Never know what a change of scenery can do, but I believe tigers don't change their stripes. I also believe that things I did when I was 21 were not indicative of my true character a few years later.
Was lynch and Dawkins coming off a serious injury though when we acquired them?
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:11 AM   #58
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Not gonna name names to start a flame war, but last year the armchair GMs solution was to keep Tebow at qb and use the money for superstuds like Jeff Saturday and Jamell McClain instead of Manning

Im sure we will see some more genius ideas and critics thrown around today
1. I'm pretty sure everyone who wanted Saturday wanted him WITH Manning. That was when Saturday became popular around here.

2. People wanted McClain instead of Joe "This Idiot Cannonball cost us $4M?" Mays.

Your memory sucks. Maybe you should start taking some ginko.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:12 AM   #59
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Drek has already got this solved. We are losing all of Dumervil's production and it cannot be replaced, whether it be with a draftee, veteran or having guys like Ayers and Jackson step up. It's a done deal boys. We are doomed. It is all over.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:13 AM   #60
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It's a short sighted view and ignores that Doom's contract only gets more reasonable from here. The fact that the FO didn't plan for that benefit when they backed the Brinks truck up for Manning last year is the problem here, not Doom's contract or his production.
Exactly. Cutting Prater, and drafting a kicker who can hit a clutch field goal would save them just as much cap money over the next two years as cutting Dumervil would.

They should just wait until next offseason, when Dumervil is 30, and work with him then...when his contract has a lot less money left on it. They could easily work this out, if they tried.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:13 AM   #61
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Replacing Dumervil with Freeney only saves $3.8M. Not sure how many "more" things you plan on doing with that money, other than paying for McGahee's $1M in dead money after you cut him for an inferior player.
I'm not sure how a $12 million salary vs. a $4-5 million salary gets you to $3.8 million. But maybe you know some fancy math I never learned!
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:13 AM   #62
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Uh, DRC has twice as many interceptions, twice as many passes defended, twice as many defensive touchdowns and is by far more an aggressive ballhawk than Porter. I think Porter might be better at tackling and putting his nose in there against the run, but DRC makes more plays in coverage and plays on the ball while they are in the air. But he has been burned before, as most people have.

When DRC was traded to the Eagles he played nickel because of the players they already had there. After Asante got dished, he became a starter there like he was in Arizona. Philly was bad this year, but I would have to think DRC can assume his Pro-Bowl potential he had in 2009 (elected) and 2010 (reserve) and would be an upgrade over Porter and allow us to figure out who works best between him and Harris at nickel (although I assume DRC is #2 and Harris would go to nickel).

I think DRC is a good signing and would be much better value than what we would have to dish out for Sean Smith. He is still 26/27 years old and gives us a long-term option past Bailey as a starter.
right on.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:16 AM   #63
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Who's worth more, an idiot kicker or an All-Pro DE?

If the Broncos do this it is an epic mistake.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:17 AM   #64
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Carolina is going to cut LB James Anderson. He might be a good pick up for depth at least and Fox knows him well.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:18 AM   #65
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It's the desire to make a splash and chase Revis, DRC, and get Manning his buddy Freeney in Denver that is the motivation here. I have a hard time seeing any of those options off-setting the loss of what Doom teamed with Miller does for our pass rush.

It's a short sighted view and ignores that Doom's contract only gets more reasonable from here. The fact that the FO didn't plan for that benefit when they backed the Brinks truck up for Manning last year is the problem here, not Doom's contract or his production.
That's a very cynical outlook fraught with a lot of assumptions. And you keep bashing the Manning signing. Without him we're 8-8 and battling KC for the likes of Alex Smith to be our starting QB.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:20 AM   #66
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Dumervil is all but gone. The Broncos may be better off anyway since Ayers could play more and help out against the run, while Freeney(reportedly Manning is wooing) could come in on passing downs. With Dumervil, there was no way that was going to happen. I expect the Broncos to look at pass rushers in the draft as well.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:20 AM   #67
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I'm not sure how a $12 million salary vs. a $4-5 million salary gets you to $3.8 million. But maybe you know some fancy math I never learned!
Dumervil 2013 cap hit: $13.62M
Dead money from cutting Dumervil: $4.87M
Dwight Freeney 2013 cap hit: $5M

The difference is a whopping total of $3.75M.

Not worth it at all. Like I said, if they are concerned money, they would save more by cutting their crappy overpaid kicker.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:20 AM   #68
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That's a very cynical outlook fraught with a lot of assumptions. And you keep bashing the Manning signing. Without him we're 8-8 and battling KC for the likes of Alex Smith to be our starting QB.
Nate Irving and Omar Bolden (dead legs) were future stars according to Drek.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:21 AM   #69
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Who's worth more, an idiot kicker or an All-Pro DE?

If the Broncos do this it is an epic mistake.
Losing doom affects the entire defense production IMO. From Von to the dime CB. Looking back there's a few ints where QBs rushed the pass because of dumervil. QBs will play better against this defense without dumervil.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:23 AM   #70
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1. I'm pretty sure everyone who wanted Saturday wanted him WITH Manning. That was when Saturday became popular around here.

2. People wanted McClain instead of Joe "This Idiot Cannonball cost us $4M?" Mays.

Your memory sucks. Maybe you should start taking some ginko.
my memory is fine
There were some on here who thought Tebow as qb with Saturday and McClain was better than Manning without those guys or any of the other guys we "lost" on in FA

Im not gonna go through that again

Ill just let you freak out over the FO not following your expertise
Im sure the same guy who was a big time McDaniels and Tebow supporter has it all figured out
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:27 AM   #71
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...The difference is a whopping total of $3.75M.

Not worth it at all...
Assuming they pay Freeney $5 million that is correct on the cap. I was talking cash which is also a consideration. And there are also future considerations such as getting rid of the dead money now instead of next year when we have a lot more players we need to sign.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:27 AM   #72
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Drek has already got this solved. We are losing all of Dumervil's production and it cannot be replaced, whether it be with a draftee, veteran or having guys like Ayers and Jackson step up. It's a done deal boys. We are doomed. It is all over.
So your suggestion is don't worry about cutting proven career Broncos still playing at a high level, I'm sure someone will step up from somewhere and be just as good as the double digit sack guy this franchise spent much of the early 2000's searching for in vain.

Really just proves that Broncos fans have gotten spoiled now and no longer appreciate the pass rush hell this franchise lived through for many seasons. Remember when Reggie Hayward was our best pass rusher?

The key to this defense improving each of the last two years was the Miller/Doom tandem, but I'm sure that having a problem with cutting off half that tandem to save a few bucks we can "better spend" on some random street guys we'll have to competitively bid for is a much better approach.

My favorite part of all this is the whole "Doom is overpaid, cut him!" attitude when the only other real use for that money this off-season is signing other FAs, who by the very nature of the FA market will themselves demand an overpay.

Free agents rarely turn into value signings. At best they're worth exactly what they're paying them or slightly less. At worst they're massive overpays and tons of dead money. The fact that Doom is overpaid by a few million would make him a free agency success story by most pro sports FA signing standards. But I'm sure the Broncos FO have it all figured out and they'll only sign the right guys who earn every dollar of their contract.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:27 AM   #73
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Dumervil 2013 cap hit: $13.62M
Dead money from cutting Dumervil: $4.87M
Dwight Freeney 2013 cap hit: $5M

The difference is a whopping total of $3.75M.

Not worth it at all. Like I said, if they are concerned money, they would save more by cutting their crappy overpaid kicker.
Cap dont mean ****, look at it from a cash perspective if it happens because that is the only thing that matters in Dove Valley.

Dumervil wont be cut because of his cap hit he'll be cut because of the cash money he makes.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:28 AM   #74
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Losing doom affects the entire defense production IMO. From Von to the dime CB. Looking back there's a few ints where QBs rushed the pass because of dumervil. QBs will play better against this defense without dumervil.
Exactly. And it's amazing how few people on Omane understand that concept. Even fewer understand simple math it appears.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:28 AM   #75
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my memory is fine
There were some on here who thought Tebow as qb with Saturday and McClain was better than Manning without those guys or any of the other guys we "lost" on in FA

Im not gonna go through that again

Ill just let you freak out over the FO not following your expertise
Im sure the same guy who was a big time McDaniels and Tebow supporter has it all figured out
So you're making **** up. Ok, good to know.
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