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Old 03-11-2013, 01:09 PM   #376
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So basically you are saying JA is way better then Doom because he doesn't have a guy like Miller helping him.
Nope... Doom did it constantly before Von came. You know? When Doom was all we had. In Red Forman's voice: Don't try and be a smart ass!

What we have is lethal! Did Atlanta have anything on D that you would consider lethal?
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:13 PM   #377
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How often did you see the left tackle on any team we played getting tight end help on his side to neutralize Doom?
I didn't count. There are, however, many other ways to devote resources to blocking a pass rusher. For instance, against the Steelers, the LT drops quickly directly in front of Doom, and the LG drops at the same time, guarding against an inside move by Doom. This necessitates the C to slide over to block Unrein, opening a nice hole for Von to shoot through. This is the sack after which Von Tebows.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:17 PM   #378
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:26 PM   #379
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I didn't count. There are, however, many other ways to devote resources to blocking a pass rusher. For instance, against the Steelers, the LT drops quickly directly in front of Doom, and the LG drops at the same time, guarding against an inside move by Doom. This necessitates the C to slide over to block Unrein, opening a nice hole for Von to shoot through. This is the sack after which Von Tebows.
Of course you didn't count. The idea that Dumervil on the field improves the success rate of Von's pass rush may have "some" merit, but not to the extent you and others are trying to provide.

And FYI on that particular play the LG was shuffling back as Woodyard came through on his blitz. LT obviously had Dumervil and as you said, the C picked up Mitch. Harris and Adams also came from Von's side with blitzes, which allowed him to come through the gap with ease. So in reality, there was no double team or extra chip from an OL on Dumervil that allowed it to happen. The RG and RT had three players (Von, Harris, Adams) to deal with -- resulting in the sack.

The result would have been the same, even had Malik Jackson or Robert Ayers been playing in place of Dumervil.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:32 PM   #380
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Of course you didn't count. The idea that Dumervil on the field improves the success rate of Von's pass rush may have "some" merit, but not to the extent you and others are trying to provide.

And FYI on that particular play the LG was shuffling back as Woodyard came through on his blitz. LT obviously had Dumervil and as you said, the C picked up Mitch. Harris and Adams also came from Von's side with blitzes, which allowed him to come through the gap with ease. So in reality, there was no double team or extra chip from an OL on Dumervil that allowed it to happen. The RG and RT had three players (Von, Harris, Adams) to deal with -- resulting in the sack.

The result would have been the same, even had Malik Jackson or Robert Ayers been playing in place of Dumervil.
So you're saying that the LG jumps back in tandem with the LT because of Woodyard, even though Woodyard hadn't moved at that point? Also, when Woodyard cuts to the inside, the LG is more concerned with keeping one hand on Doom than following, again because of Woodyard?

I'm sure you're right, though. No way teams plan anything for one of the most productive passrushers in the league.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:39 PM   #381
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Nope... Doom did it constantly before Von came. You know? When Doom was all we had. In Red Forman's voice: Don't try and be a smart ass!

What we have is lethal! Did Atlanta have anything on D that you would consider lethal?
Again you are making my case for me.
11 sacks 6 FFs with lethal players on D isn't 9 million dollars better then 10 sacks and 6 FFs with no help.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:42 PM   #382
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So you're saying that the LG jumps back in tandem with the LT because of Woodyard, even though Woodyard hadn't moved at that point? Also, when Woodyard cuts to the inside, the LG is more concerned with keeping one hand on Doom than following, again because of Woodyard?

I'm sure you're right, though. No way teams plan anything for one of the most productive passrushers in the league.
The LG never even touched Dumervil, his body motion was fixed on the forthcoming (delayed) blitz on Woodyard the whole time. The Steelers running back came in and tried to get a hit on Dumervil, but Rapesburger was already down by the time that happened.

What I am saying is that an overwhelming blitz by the CB, SS and SAM over two OL is the mismatch in that scenario. Dumervil getting swallowed up by the LT -- and solely the LT on that play, was not the reason for Von to come through and get his sack. Which is what you tried to represent . . . and failed in doing so.

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Old 03-11-2013, 01:50 PM   #383
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outside of the "budget" i don't understand why it's necessary for Doom to take a pay cut. convert the damn money to a signing bonus like other teams have done and save the cap space.
Can't do that. All the Cowbows did with Ware is push his cap hit onto 2014 and 2015 (which the Broncos can't afford either). Demarcus Ware restructured to an $8M cap hit in 2013 (which is nice), but the signing bonus is pro-rated over 2014 and 2015, giving the Cowboys $17M cap hits in those two years. If the Cowboys cut him in 2014, Ware counts $8.8M in dead money against the 2014 cap.

I imagine the contract offer the Broncos gave to Dumervil looked like this (4 year $34M contract):

Code:
Year	Base Salary	Pro-Rat Sign Bonus	Cap Hit
2013	$6M		$2.5M			$8.5M
2014	$6M		$2.5M			$8.5M
2015	$6M		$2.5M			$8.5M
2016	$6M		$2.5M			$8.5M
Total						$34M
Why agree to only $16M in guarantees from the Broncos (2013 salary + $10M signing bonus), when another team can easily afford to give him $22M in guarantees while paying the same base salary?

Other team hypothetical contract (4 year $40M contract):

Code:
Year	Base Salary	Pro-Rat Sign Bonus	Cap Hit
2013	$6M		$4M			$10M
2014	$6M		$4M			$10M
2015	$6M		$4M			$10M
2016	$6M		$4M			$10M
Total						$40M
In this other hypothetical contract, Dumervil would be getting a $16M signing bonus in 2013 (instead of $10M), and would still be making the same yearly base salary that the Broncos offered. Easily affordable to a team that needs an elite pass-rusher.

Last edited by pricejj; 03-11-2013 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:11 PM   #384
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Can't do that. All the Cowbows did with Ware is push his cap hit onto 2014 and 2015 (which the Broncos can't afford either). Demarcus Ware restructured to an $8M cap hit in 2013 (which is nice), but the signing bonus is pro-rated over 2014 and 2015, giving the Cowboys $17M cap hits in those two years. If the Cowboys cut him in 2014, Ware counts $8.8M in dead money against the 2014 cap.

I imagine the contract offer the Broncos gave to Dumervil looked like this (4 year $34M contract):

Code:
Year	Base Salary	Pro-Rat Sign Bonus	Cap Hit
2013	$6M		$2.5M			$8.5M
2014	$6M		$2.5M			$8.5M
2015	$6M		$2.5M			$8.5M
2016	$6M		$2.5M			$8.5M
Total						$34M
Why agree to only $16M in guarantees from the Broncos (2013 salary + $10M signing bonus), when another team can easily afford to give him $22M in guarantees while paying the same base salary?

Other team hypothetical contract (4 year $40M contract):

Code:
Year	Base Salary	Pro-Rat Sign Bonus	Cap Hit
2013	$6M		$4M			$10M
2014	$6M		$4M			$10M
2015	$6M		$4M			$10M
2016	$6M		$4M			$10M
Total						$40M
In this other hypothetical contract, Dumervil would be getting a $16M signing bonus in 2013 (instead of $10M), and would still be making the same yearly base salary that the Broncos offered. Easily affordable to a team that needs an elite pass-rusher.
i was more referring to what the Steelers did with Big Ben. but now looking at the deal he did the same as Ware though i think the ballooned cap hit is lower in subsequent seasons.
still, why cut him over this. we're not really in cap hell and you can shuffle around more money once you get Clady signed.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:17 PM   #385
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The LG never even touched Dumervil, his body motion was fixed on the forthcoming (delayed) blitz on Woodyard the whole time. The Steelers running back came in and tried to get a hit on Dumervil, but Rapesburger was already down by the time that happened.

What I am saying is that an overwhelming blitz by the CB, SS and SAM over two OL is the mismatch in that scenario. Dumervil getting swallowed up by the LT -- and solely the LT on that play, was not the reason for Von to come through and get his sack. Which is what you tried to represent . . . and failed in doing so.

Thanks for coming to class today.
So that's not the LG's arm extending from his left shoulder and grabbing Doom? I never would have guessed.

Good point about the RB. That's 4 players devoted to blocking on that side (LT, LG, C, RB), two of which (LT, RB) seem to only focus on Doom, and one of which (LG) at the very least is giving Doom half his attention. Obviously all the attention paid to Doom has no effect on creating the mismatch you refer to.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:19 PM   #386
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The Broncos don't get better by cutting Dumervil. But they have no choice. That's why we're screwed, unless Dumervil agrees to a major paycut. Which he won't do.
I agree, he's a good player and you lose pass rushing when he's not here. But do the Broncos get better with him here or gone, well that all depends on other factors. Really, the only way I would be on board with getting rid of Doom is if we were able to bring in Revis, who IMO, is going to help your secondary so much that you front 7 are sure to get more coverage sacks and blitz sacks.


But I also want to point out, that if we had better pressure up the middle from a DT, that would make Doom and Miller even more effective. I can't count how many times Doom speedrushes to the outside while the QB simply just steps up in the pocket because there is no pressure up the middle. Not even arms in the air to bat passes. That needs to improve. But I'll also say Doom needs to work on some things. Obviously stopping the run but in his pass rush, he's really becoming more and more a pure speed rusher. His bullrush is just not getting it done, and you would figure it would be difficult for him being undersized. He hardly every uses a spin move and I don't see many swim moves either. He really just speed rushes and dips the inside shoulder. He's great at that but defenses know that's pretty much what he's going to do. He's one of the best at it, I'll give him that. I also don't see the Broncos running many line stunts. I wonder how Doom would do at that. I think he'd probably be pretty good at it because of his quickness.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:37 PM   #387
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So that's not the LG's arm extending from his left shoulder and grabbing Doom? I never would have guessed.

Good point about the RB. That's 4 players devoted to blocking on that side (LT, LG, C, RB), two of which (LT, RB) seem to only focus on Doom, and one of which (LG) at the very least is giving Doom half his attention. Obviously all the attention paid to Doom has no effect on creating the mismatch you refer to.
Would you like to attempt to tell us all what kind of defensive play call that was, Magic Wonder?
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:42 PM   #388
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we're not really in cap hell and you can shuffle around more money once you get Clady signed.
Clady angle is interesting, but he won't cost less than the franchise tag. Shuffling money to future years in the form of a signing bonus, just screws us down the line.

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I agree, he's a good player and you lose pass rushing when he's not here. But do the Broncos get better with him here or gone, well that all depends on other factors. Really, the only way I would be on board with getting rid of Doom is if we were able to bring in Revis, who IMO, is going to help your secondary so much that you front 7 are sure to get more coverage sacks and blitz sacks.
You have a point with Revis. The Broncos could afford to pay him about $8M per year (if they cut Dumervil). Pretty sure, he's looking for about $10M. Broncos can't afford that...but maybe they could afford it if they traded Dumervil? Would Dumervil's dead money go away in a trade?

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But I also want to point out, that if we had better pressure up the middle from a DT, that would make Doom and Miller even more effective.
Yep. You're right. Interior pass rush is going to have to come from Wolfe, or a high-draft pick.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:45 PM   #389
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Would you like to attempt to tell us all what kind of defensive play call that was, Magic Wonder?
No, I think I'll let you make your own points.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:19 PM   #390
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You have a point with Revis. The Broncos could afford to pay him about $8M per year (if they cut Dumervil). Pretty sure, he's looking for about $10M.
Where have you heard that? I heard he wanted Mario Williams money ($15+ mil) I don't see how you lock up Revis for any amount of time @ $10mil a year.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:35 PM   #391
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Where have you heard that? I heard he wanted Mario Williams money ($15+ mil) I don't see how you lock up Revis for any amount of time @ $10mil a year.
Cool. Then the Broncos have no chance in hell of signing him.

I bet they would thank their lucky starts to get Sean Smith at $4M per year.

That's really about all they can afford anyway.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:52 PM   #392
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Clady angle is interesting, but he won't cost less than the franchise tag. Shuffling money to future years in the form of a signing bonus, just screws us down the line.
they're not likely to severely front load it nor spread it out all evenly.
in most cases the big cap hits are placed on the back end and by the time that really hits us Peyton will be either in the final year of his deal or retired.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:55 PM   #393
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Where have you heard that? I heard he wanted Mario Williams money ($15+ mil) I don't see how you lock up Revis for any amount of time @ $10mil a year.
he does want Mario money, which is why i keep saying there is no way in hell we should fork over a first for him. that's a non starter IMO.
i wholeheartedly agree with Bill Parcells. paying 10 mil for a corner is steep, paying 15 mil for a corner is insane.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:02 PM   #394
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Cool. Then the Broncos have no chance in hell of signing him.

I bet they would thank their lucky starts to get Sean Smith at $4M per year.

That's really about all they can afford anyway.
You are the only one who thinks we are cash strapped because you fiddled around on sportrac. The cap is workable in some many ways that they hire guys SPECIFICALLY to deal with it. Its more complicated than you think
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:05 PM   #395
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I agree, he's a good player and you lose pass rushing when he's not here. But do the Broncos get better with him here or gone, well that all depends on other factors. Really, the only way I would be on board with getting rid of Doom is if we were able to bring in Revis, who IMO, is going to help your secondary so much that you front 7 are sure to get more coverage sacks and blitz sacks.


But I also want to point out, that if we had better pressure up the middle from a DT, that would make Doom and Miller even more effective. I can't count how many times Doom speedrushes to the outside while the QB simply just steps up in the pocket because there is no pressure up the middle. Not even arms in the air to bat passes. That needs to improve. But I'll also say Doom needs to work on some things. Obviously stopping the run but in his pass rush, he's really becoming more and more a pure speed rusher. His bullrush is just not getting it done, and you would figure it would be difficult for him being undersized. He hardly every uses a spin move and I don't see many swim moves either. He really just speed rushes and dips the inside shoulder. He's great at that but defenses know that's pretty much what he's going to do. He's one of the best at it, I'll give him that. I also don't see the Broncos running many line stunts. I wonder how Doom would do at that. I think he'd probably be pretty good at it because of his quickness.
Yikes, do you really want Moore and Champ back there defending for an eternity against top level QBs and WRs? How about when the RB gets to the second level (which they will)? Pretty sure Revis will whiff given the chance, Champ can tackle great but will get torched against good WRs.

IMO we need to bolster the DL, a good DL and LBs can make bums look good in the secondary.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:35 PM   #396
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Update. Doesn't look good. As far as releasing him tomorrow I say screw that. Wait and sign a replacement first. If it screws Doom, sorry

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...ms-out-broncos
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:42 PM   #397
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Update. Doesn't look good. As far as releasing him tomorrow I say screw that. Wait and sign a replacement first. If it screws Doom, sorry

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...ms-out-broncos
the quote about him asking for his release before the start of FA tells it all. they won't settle for anything less than a pay cut and he won't give up any money.

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Old 03-11-2013, 04:47 PM   #398
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Yikes, do you really want Moore and Champ back there defending for an eternity against top level QBs and WRs? How about when the RB gets to the second level (which they will)? Pretty sure Revis will whiff given the chance, Champ can tackle great but will get torched against good WRs.

IMO we need to bolster the DL, a good DL and LBs can make bums look good in the secondary.
Champ had A BAD GAME. Suddenly he's this huge liability that will get "torched" against good wr's?
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:59 PM   #399
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The Jets need help in the pass rush department. If no deal is possible with Doom and the Revis interest is real. Maybe a deal can be made that would allow us to keep our 1st round pick.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:25 PM   #400
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Keep Dumervil on the team in a restructure. Put him on IR right after camp. Teach him a lesson. Do not allow him on fair rides because he is 5'11.
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