Sal Pal - Denver in mix for Revis trade

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by Mountain Bronco

I would do it in a heart beat if we are able to sign Freeney. A rotation of Ayers and Freeney plus Revis = better than Doom.

You would give up Doom and a 1st right? That is what it will take.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Dedhed

Elvis Dumervil

Doom had 8.5 sacks his rookie year, which is less than he had this season.

[bpc]

The trade would make a lot of sense. Doom moves to a 3-4 which would be his best position as he gets older highlighting his best attributes. The Jets also need a pass rusher. They get rid of Revis who's been a headache for them, adds a pass rusher and generates a high draft pick to help rebuild with. For Denver it nets us another great CB who could help us longterm as we transition from Champ's prime years while adding a playmaker in an ever increasing passing league. It also sheds Doom's contract which we can use to sign Revis long term, and quietly adds some size up front against the run, something we desperately need to revamp.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

He had 9 sacks his rookie season. That is less than Doom had this season.

And how many sacks did Elvis Dumervil have as a rookie?

Oh wait, you already answered that.

[socalorado]

Originally Posted by TonyR

I agree with all of this. But I'm not down with it if we also give up our 1st round pick...

No no! Me either! a 3rd. And Doom.
How many sacks did Doom have when DEN played in the 3-4?
Wasnt it like 16-17 in 1 season!?!?!
I say leverage with NYJ Dooms accomplishments in being able to
be productive in a 3-4 or a 4-3 and they get a 3rd round pick to rebuild their team. NYJ have had bust after bust at DE, and are in desperate need of a solid DE.
If they complain, hang up.

[Punisher]

Originally Posted by Eldorado

Ayers and a 3rd.

Ayers and a 2nd would do the job

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

You're the one that said "contribute right away."

Doom was a top ten pass rusher last season in total pressures. Revis, if healthy, would be better than him. But giving up Doom plus picks I'm not entirely comfortable with.

Also, he played standing up this season, and he played with his hand in the dirt when we were a 3-4. Separating out his seasons like that is stupid.

Why is it stupid? Highlighting that his best season was as a 3-4 OLB when we offered him to a team in a trade (assuming) runs a 3-4 sure makes sense. As a DE in this league, he has averaged 9 sacks a season. Pretty solid, but there are a lot of other people who have done that too.

Four players were given that were selected in rounds 3 and 4 who have had great impact in this league. They are Pro-Bowl players. So don't act like it is impossible for him to be replaced.

[Drunken.Broncoholic]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

He had 9 sacks his rookie season. That is less than Doom had this season.

Ok.

What about Al "bubba" Baker? He went off his rookie year. Not sure what Deacon Jones did his rookie year

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Requiem

And how many sacks did Elvis Dumervil have as a rookie?

Oh wait, you already answered that.

Are you having reading comprehension issues? Two premiere pass rushers contributed less in their rookie seasons than Doom did this season, reinforcing my point that you can't get late picks to contribute "right away" as you claimed.

[razorwire77]

Originally Posted by bpc

The trade would make a lot of sense. Doom moves to a 3-4 which would be his best position as he gets older highlighting his best attributes. The Jets also need a pass rusher. They get rid of Revis who's been a headache for them, adds a pass rusher and generates a high draft pick to help rebuild with. For Denver it nets us another great CB who could help us longterm as we transition from Champ's prime years while adding a playmaker in an ever increasing passing league. It also sheds Doom's contract which we can use to sign Revis long term, and quietly adds some size up front against the run, something we desperately need to revamp.

Ding ding ding.

Also, Doom absolutely blows up lower-tier tackles TE's and RB's in pass protection. But I'm hard pressed to think of a time where he beat a top 8 tackle in a one-on-one situation. I'm sure it's happened, but the better tackles in the league seem to use good footwork to envelop him with their mass. There's also his issues in 4-3 run support. He got better this season, but he's still not great.

[Heyneck]

Originally Posted by Requiem

Why is it stupid? Highlighting that his best season was as a 3-4 OLB when we offered him to a team in a trade (assuming) runs a 3-4 sure makes sense. As a DE in this league, he has averaged 9 sacks a season. Pretty solid, but there are a lot of other people who have done that too.

Four players were given that were selected in rounds 3 and 4 who have had great impact in this league. They are Pro-Bowl players. So don't act like it is impossible for him to be replaced.

That is a shady stat. In his 17 sack season most of his sacks came with the hand on the dirt.

[Mediator12]

The answer is 2006 Mark Anderson Bears Round 5 pick 26 and 12 sacks as a Part time pass rusher. Loved that kid coming out, Bears screwed him up big time. Now, He is in BUF backing up Super mario.

[Heyneck]

There is a reason Elway picked Von. He said something along the lines that after having a franshice QB & LT, the next most important thing is the headhunter.

Sorry but not many defensive linemen have had a start to their career like Doom's first 6 years. I can't believe the lack of respect he gets around here. Finding that DE that can put a consistent pass rush on the QBs year and year out is not something done as simple as you imply. Sure he struggles a bit against the run, which is more baffling when talking about replacing him with Freeney as some poster says (he is basically and Older broken down Doom that's even worst against the run). But apart from the 10+ sacks/season he gets you he gets you a consistent push. Go look up how many QB hurries he was accounted for.

Doom is not a part you can replace and expect similar production from. You guys do understand that if he averages 12 sacks/season over the next 3 years and he would be a 100 sack career artist 9 years into his career? Find me a 4th round pick that has done that recently.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Drunken.Broncoholic

Ok.

What about Al "bubba" Baker? He went off his rookie year. Not sure what Deacon Jones did his rookie year

They didn't record sacks back then. During the 9 seasons Baker played when they did record sacks, he had one season better than Doom's 2012 season.

[razorwire77]

Originally Posted by Heyneck

Doom is not a part you can replace and expect similar production from. You guys do understand that if he averages 12 sacks/season over the next 3 years and he would be a 100 sack career artist 9 years into his career? Find me a 4th round pick that has done that recently.

The idea wouldn't be to replace his individual sack numbers, but find a couple of guys to rotate depending to offset his production. You need to find a couple of guys who can get 5-7 sacks each. In an increasingly specialized NFL, that's not all that difficult to replace.

Finding a guy that you can put in man press-coverage with Brandon Marshall, Bowe, or even a Vernon Davis and have him hold his own is worth his weight in gold. We've been spoiled with Champ in that regard for years. Champ, is still very good, but gone are the days where we can assume he can run down the field stride for stride with a 24-year-old 4.4 WR. We need to transition and improve as the divisional showed us. That, and Doom's contract is gigantic.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Are you having reading comprehension issues? Two premiere pass rushers contributed less in their rookie seasons than Doom did this season, reinforcing my point that you can't get late picks to contribute "right away" as you claimed.

Except you can. And it doesn't have to be one guy. It can be in a rotational role as I also suggested earlier. His production can be replaced, whether you like to believe it to not.

How many rookies do you honestly think perform to the level of a six year pro? Jesus Christ, you come up with some bat**** stuff. You are stretching the bar further and further to justify your man love for Dumervil. Get over it. The Broncos will go on with or without him. I'd be fine either way.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

The answer is 2006 Mark Anderson Bears Round 5 pick 26 and 12 sacks as a Part time pass rusher. Loved that kid coming out, Bears screwed him up big time. Now, He is in BUF backing up Super mario.

But dude, there was nobody EVER in the NFL who had that kind of production that was picked late. Just ask MagicHef. Dumervil was the first ever mid-round selection to perform at a high level in his sixth year!? Bazing.

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by Heyneck

There is a reason Elway picked Von. He said something along the lines that after having a franshice QB & LT, the next most important thing is the headhunter.

Sorry but not many defensive linemen have had a start to their career like Doom's first 6 years. I can't believe the lack of respect he gets around here. Finding that DE that can put a consistent pass rush on the QBs year and year out is not something done as simple as you imply. Sure he struggles a bit against the run, which is more baffling when talking about replacing him with Freeney as some poster says (he is basically and Older broken down Doom that's even worst against the run). But apart from the 10+ sacks/season he gets you he gets you a consistent push. Go look up how many QB hurries he was accounted for.

Doom is not a part you can replace and expect similar production from. You guys do understand that if he averages 12 sacks/season over the next 3 years and he would be a 100 sack career artist 9 years into his career? Find me a 4th round pick that has done that recently.

Way too much respect for Dumervil and the actual impact he has on opposing offenses IMHO. He is a pass rusher, but he is not anything else. And he is the second best Pass rusher on the team now, and the highest paid defender by a mile. He greatly benefits from Miller now, and he will degrade in effectiveness as soon as he no longer has the second best pass rusher in the league on his side.

He is not scheme friendly at all, and while his Pass rush is important to this team, his value in doing so anymore is negative to his cap hit. He is still a one trick pony, and there are a LOT of potential one trick ponies out there who would thrive with Miller occupying special attention in this scheme.

I like Dumervil, but DEN severely overpaid the guy and now they have a chance to do something about it.

Revis is a weird thing though. He just injured his best tool to cover and wants to get paid after missing most of the season. However, The Jets NEVER paid him market value and the GM on the street right now (Tannenbaum) screwed with him for years. He wants out of the Jets implosion, and who are no longer even remotely a contender, and would be pretty damn happy in DEN with his pal Bailey.

He could be a crucial piece to making this defense even more difficult to play against, as he presents unique problems for teams, that Dumervil does not. People also forget he plays the run really damn well, something Dumervil never has done. If you put revis on the top WR, Bailey can and will cover the TE matchup nightmare from the Slot, and Harris and Carter can still cover the #2 WR and #3WR with extra safety help. Bailey does not have to move to safety to cover the matchup TE's, he covered Gonzo and Gates back in the early days here in the red zone. You know back when DEN had the top TE defense in the league despite 2 all-pro TE's twice a year.

The one thing I do not want is to give up a second rounder in the deal. Hell, give up a fourth and third next year, this damn draft is way too deep to hand over a top 90 pick IMHO.

I hope they explore this, but they have to make it work for everybody to get it done.

[Heyneck]

Originally Posted by razorwire77

The idea wouldn't be to replace his individual sack numbers, but find a couple of guys to rotate depending to offset his production. You need to find a couple of guys who can get 5-7 sacks each. In an increasingly specialized NFL, that's not all that difficult to replace.

Finding a guy that you can put in man press-coverage with Brandon Marshall, Bowe, or even a Vernon Davis and have him hold his own is worth his weight in gold. We've been spoiled with Champ in that regard for years. Champ, is still very good, but gone are the days where we can assume he can run down the field stride for stride with a 24-year-old 4.4 WR. We need to transition and improve as the divisional showed us. That, and Doom's contract is gigantic.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-br...lvis-dumervil/

I wouldn't consider that contract gigantic for somebody that probably will hit the 100 sack career mark. Specially considering that he gets cheaper by the year. We could always approach him with a restructure to help out the team, but in no way you move Doom.

If finding 5-7 sack players is so easy, why did we suck so bad at generating sack numbers for most of the past decade? We had an abundant amount of role players and we rarely got that type of production. Sorry man. Don't buy it. Doom is a special Headhunter. You don't replace his type with role players.

[Drunken.Broncoholic]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

They didn't record sacks back then. During the 9 seasons Baker played when they did record sacks, he had one season better than Doom's 2012 season.

Ya but there were reports that Baker had up to 20 sacks his rookie year.

Mediator has thrown in a name too

[DivineLegion]

If Elvis is the cornerstone of the trade from the Broncos end, then the compensation should be about even. I wouldn't expect the Broncos to tag a 1st on onto the trade because of the relative age, and production of both players. The only way this trade would piss me off is if the Broncos coincided a first round pick.

I think our front office will hold out for a second or third, and Elvis making this a good trade. Champ is 35, and in the twilight of his HOF career. He is the kind of player that comes around once every decade, and the Broncos have the opportunity to replace him with a similar generational player on a seven year lease if you assume Revis stays productive as long as Champ. You also put yourself in a situation where you have three of the best corners in league (Chris Harris is hands down the best nickle corner), along with arguably the best pass rusher in the league; that is legendary potential in today's pass happy NFL.

The challenge is replacing the production of Elvis Dumervile with either a veteran, or rookie DE. Given the Brincos defense last fall, you would need a guy who is quick off the edge in a wide 9 or 7 technique. This is where a guy like Cliff Avril, Osi Umenyiora, or Dwight Freeney come in. You also have the opportunity to upgrade the position by acquiring a guy like Michael Bennett who can stop the run, and generated 8 sacks last season. There are definitely short term options available, and some of them might come relatively cheap if the Broncos move early, because it looks like there is going to be a pretty substantial bidding war over Kruger to the tune of 9 million a season.

Then there is the draft, not just any draft either, a big ugly draft loaded with linemen. If my assumption in believing John can get away with only a second in compensation, the Broncos will have the ability to draft a young DE with pass rushing ability as a long term solution to losing Elvis. Couple this prospect with the plethora of aging pass rushers hitting the market this offseason (ie Osi & Freeney) who could be attained at reasonable contracts, and you lost little in letting Elvis go. That is why this trade makes sense, its a matter of forward thinking. You stack the defense for an abbreviated window, while still building for the future by acquiring players at key positions that are about to be voided on your team. John made it very clear when he selected Brock that he was not building this team in 4-5 year windows. That selection gave me the impression that he is thinking about how this team is going to look long term, and acquiring players for both the short and long term to keep it competitive. That is what this trade would indicate, and that's why I like it. I love Doom, but this trade makes too much sense to pass up.

[Drunken.Broncoholic]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

The answer is 2006 Mark Anderson Bears Round 5 pick 26 and 12 sacks as a Part time pass rusher. Loved that kid coming out, Bears screwed him up big time. Now, He is in BUF backing up Super mario.

Mediator with the top shelf knowledge. Forgot about Anderson. I think he was up for rookie of the year that year. And drafted in the 5th makes it even more a proven point

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Drunken.Broncoholic

Mediator with the top shelf knowledge. Forgot about Anderson. I think he was up for rookie of the year that year. And drafted in the 5th makes it even more a proven point

Mark Anderson was a made up player in Madden. Don't kid yourself. MagicHef is so right. Never happened.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Requiem

Except you can. And it doesn't have to be one guy. It can be in a rotational role as I also suggested earlier. His production can be replaced, whether you like to believe it to not.

How many rookies do you honestly think perform to the level of a six year pro? Jesus Christ, you come up with some bat**** stuff. You are stretching the bar further and further to justify your man love for Dumervil. Get over it. The Broncos will go on with or without him. I'd be fine either way.

You really have an interesting way of "reading." I never said any of those things.

I took issue with your statement that we could get a rookie to contribute right away, making Doom expendable. It's happened once, and maybe another time before they started recording sacks, so I wouldn't count on it happening for us this season.

If Doom is gone, I promise you our pass rush will not be as good as it was last year.

[ZONA]

Originally Posted by Heyneck

Yeah but Von ain't going to have the same impact he had with a very competent pass rusher. A CB can be great and cover "half the field", but just like other teams did with Champ in his prime, you just throw it the other way. Plus with the evolution of the TE in the offensive schemes, you have that many other options to not challenge Revis.

Plus, what you talking about? Champ was a better corner than Revis in his prime. What did that get us? I remember way more Champ saying during those days the importance of having a consistent pass rush.

You can't just throw it the other way. Champ would be over there. Are you that brain dead you forgot Champ would be the other starting CB. With those 2 on the field, sorry but that's going to give Miller an extra 2nd or 2 to get there. And I think Ayers playing full time would be just as good as Doom. Maybe have a few less sacks but plays the run better so it's a wash. That said, not sure I would send Doom and our 1st pick. I would be ok with the 2nd pick.