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Old 12-06-2012, 09:05 PM   #1
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Default Two turnover blown calls?

So - I'm wondering if two key turnovers were blown calls.

The first is the pick on Manning where Adams, who intercepted it, lands at the 1/2 yard line and slides into the endzone. The ball was placed at the Raiders 20. I believe the ball should have been placed at the 1/2 yard line. You only get the touchback if the turnover possession occurs in the endzone. But the possession occurs at the 1/2 hard line.

The second was the Palmer fumble on the Von Miller sack. Looking at it again in the replays after the game it looks a bit like a "tuck rule" situation to me. He's moved his hand forward and is bringing it back when hit and the ball hits a helmet and comes loose.

Of course I liked the 2nd blown call and was pissed about the 1st one. Thoughts on the proper application of the rules?
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:06 PM   #2
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We won.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:07 PM   #3
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#2 was a fumble...

#1 could be interpreted as a 1.2 yard line spot, but I could see that going either way because he was sliding as he came down.

I'm sure there are rule gurus on here that will correct me...
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:08 PM   #4
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His momentum took him into the end zone, hence the touchback.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:14 PM   #5
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His momentum took him into the end zone, hence the touchback.
He was touched at the 1 yard line. One angle showed this conclusively. Touched by a defender before momentum taking him into the end zone. This was a terrible miss opportunity by the Broncos to challenge this spot. 19 yards is HUGE when the difference is the 20 yard line or the 1 yard line.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:32 PM   #6
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Ok, found it..... being touched by the opposing team (us in this case) is not relevant. This is from the NFL Rule Book.

Section 28 Safety
blah blah (we know it's not a safety, but after describing what is a safety it has this note on Momentum

Note: It is not a safety if a defensive player in the field of play intercepts a pass; catches or recovers a fumble, backward pass, scrimmage kick, free kick, or fair catch kick and his original momentum carries him into his end zone where the ball is declared dead in his teams possession. Instead the ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the ball was intercepted, caught or recovered. (11-5-1 Exc. 2)
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:34 PM   #7
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Speaking of blown calls, here's one that absolutely blew my mind. We were on defense, and we got a ton of pressure on Palmer. Champ ends up getting flagged for holding, but one of the interior defensive linemen definitely hit Palmer on the helmet, and no flag.

Obviously we caught a break, but I was shocked since stuff like that with the QB is such a point of emphasis.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:39 PM   #8
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I think that was the first penalty of the game and was the Champ hold. I did expect them to ring us up when I saw Palmer's helmet off...
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:50 PM   #9
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Ok, found it..... being touched by the opposing team (us in this case) is not relevant. This is from the NFL Rule Book.

Section 28 Safety
blah blah (we know it's not a safety, but after describing what is a safety it has this note on Momentum

Note: It is not a safety if a defensive player in the field of play intercepts a pass; catches or recovers a fumble, backward pass, scrimmage kick, free kick, or fair catch kick and his original momentum carries him into his end zone where the ball is declared dead in his teams possession. Instead the ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the ball was intercepted, caught or recovered. (11-5-1 Exc. 2)
So it was a blown call by the refs. A huge blown call that thankfully had no effect on the final result.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:18 PM   #10
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So it was a blown call by the refs. A huge blown call that thankfully had no effect on the final result.
No, its the momentum rule. Touchback is correct
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:25 PM   #11
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If they didn't account for momentum then every time that happened it would be a safety for the intercepting team, which makes no sense.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:32 PM   #12
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All turnovers are automatically reviewed, so there's no point in throwing a flag.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:45 PM   #13
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No, its the momentum rule. Touchback is correct
I think you missed this part of the momentum rule.

"Instead the ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the ball was intercepted, caught or recovered."

And to be honest the momentum rule is irrelevant since he was touched down in the field of play. At that point the play is dead. It doesnt matter if he continues to go into the endzone.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:50 PM   #14
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Speaking of blown calls, did we ever get an explanation why the endzone PI call against the Bucs was placed at the 6 yard line instead of the 1?
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:50 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RhymesayersDU View Post
Speaking of blown calls, here's one that absolutely blew my mind. We were on defense, and we got a ton of pressure on Palmer. Champ ends up getting flagged for holding, but one of the interior defensive linemen definitely hit Palmer on the helmet, and no flag.

Obviously we caught a break, but I was shocked since stuff like that with the QB is such a point of emphasis.
Thats what i thought the flag was for on that play too
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:25 AM   #16
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I think you missed this part of the momentum rule.

"Instead the ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the ball was intercepted, caught or recovered."

And to be honest the momentum rule is irrelevant since he was touched down in the field of play. At that point the play is dead. It doesnt matter if he continues to go into the endzone.
That is exactly what I was saying, but it seems some of us have reading comprehension issues in this forum.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:36 AM   #17
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That is exactly what I was saying, but it seems some of us have reading comprehension issues in this forum.
I also thought the receiver (Willis or Caldwell) touched him before he crossed the goalline.

I was surprised to see the ball spotted at the 20 after the commercial break.
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:50 AM   #18
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Speaking of blown calls, did we ever get an explanation why the endzone PI call against the Bucs was placed at the 6 yard line instead of the 1?
For pass interference the ball is placed at the spot of initial contact (not where the ball ended up). They ruled (correctly I think) that contact occurred around the 6.

As a side note: When they talk about Champ being a "savvy vetaran corner", taking advantage of this is one of the things they're talking about. When Champ is beat withut safety help he'll interfere really early in the play. Usually it's a defensive hold (5 yards) or a much shorter interference play.
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:57 AM   #19
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RE tuck rule: That wasn't a tuck rule situation since Palmer brought the ball back down after the pump fake and then re-established his throwing position.
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:58 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archie View Post
So - I'm wondering if two key turnovers were blown calls.

The first is the pick on Manning where Adams, who intercepted it, lands at the 1/2 yard line and slides into the endzone. The ball was placed at the Raiders 20. I believe the ball should have been placed at the 1/2 yard line. You only get the touchback if the turnover possession occurs in the endzone. But the possession occurs at the 1/2 hard line.

The second was the Palmer fumble on the Von Miller sack. Looking at it again in the replays after the game it looks a bit like a "tuck rule" situation to me. He's moved his hand forward and is bringing it back when hit and the ball hits a helmet and comes loose.

Of course I liked the 2nd blown call and was pissed about the 1st one. Thoughts on the proper application of the rules?
The tuck rule only comes into play when the ball is not forced lose. If he had begun his forward throwing motion and then tucked it back and dropped it, it would be considered a forward pass - however since the ball came lose as a result of contact it is considered a fumble. The same is true if a QB goes to throw the ball, tucks it and the ball is swatted free - then it should be ruled a fumble.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:06 AM   #21
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The tuck rule only comes into play when the ball is not forced lose. If he had begun his forward throwing motion and then tucked it back and dropped it, it would be considered a forward pass - however since the ball came lose as a result of contact it is considered a fumble. The same is true if a QB goes to throw the ball, tucks it and the ball is swatted free - then it should be ruled a fumble.
Ummm, what? The original Brady tuck rule ruling stated the exact opposite. The ball came loose as a DIRECT result of the contact from the defender. He didn't just drop it on his own.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:59 AM   #22
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Virgil Green got tackled in the end zone on 1st and Goal at the 1. Elvis and Von were being held repeatedly No calls Crap field, crap refs, crap fans.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:42 AM   #23
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I just imagined Palmer screaming like a girl while he was being pinballed around on that play and coughed it up.

It puts me in my happy place....
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:44 AM   #24
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Virgil Green got tackled in the end zone on 1st and Goal at the 1. Elvis and Von were being held repeatedly No calls Crap field, crap refs, crap fans.
Virgil was just nervous and blew that one. He did get tackled, but it was after his feet went all funny and failed to get separation. He is a bigger, better player than that, but his inexperience showed on that play.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:44 AM   #25
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Quote:
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If they didn't account for momentum then every time that happened it would be a safety for the intercepting team, which makes no sense.
He was touched before he slid into the endzone so it would not have been a safety, he would have been down at the 1. This rule exists to avoid safeties as you said, but that wasn't the case here.
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