The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Orange Mane Discussion > Orange Mane Central Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-03-2012, 10:26 PM   #1
jerseyguy4
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default 12 men on the field

It's one of the least exciting things to happen in a game. A simple 5 yards and no auto-first down. Rarely a game changer. But who else enjoys the shat out of these when Peyton catches other teams?!?

Having watched Manning his whole career, I will say...this is normal. In 2010 I had emailed the indystar and asked Mike Chappell if they kept stats on this penalty. He said they didn't. He looked and I looked, and we didn't find it anywhere. But at some point, someone needs to go back and dig up those numbers. Peyton holds a bucket full of records already, and no doubt holds this one also.

Guessing, I think he has at least 8 this season? Maybe 10? Anyone?
Again guessing, I think he has averaged about 1 per game over his last 3 seasons.
I love each of them. Its like a staple I wait for every game, disappointed if I don't get one. Fired up when I see two in one night.

DC's must know this is coming. Are they embarrassed when they get caught?
  Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 12-03-2012, 10:31 PM   #2
spdirty
Ring of Famer
 
spdirty's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Bailey
Posts: 14,796

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Quentin Jammer
Default

I use to hate it. Use to say it was chickenshlt football. Now I love it.
spdirty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 10:32 PM   #3
Kaylore
4 time AFCW Champs
 
Kaylore's Avatar
 
12 straight road division wins

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ceti Alpha V
Posts: 47,269

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Pat Bowlen
Default

If they aren't going to sub, why should they let the defense?
Kaylore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 11:06 PM   #4
jerseyguy4
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

It's also part of a bigger picture. He always has the offense lining up quickly. More important than 5 yard penalties is being ready and looking for weakness (be that 12 men on the field, a defender ready to blitz, or whatever). To be great you need an edge, and every advantage is a good one.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 11:42 PM   #5
Ratboy
It's all over...
 
Ratboy's Avatar
 
ಠ_ಠ

Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: England
Posts: 15,637
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaylore View Post
If they aren't going to sub, why should they let the defense?
Anyone else catch Manning flipping **** when Moreno subbed out? ****ing hilarious.

His reaction was priceless.
Ratboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 11:03 AM   #6
s0phr0syne
Symbiotic
 
s0phr0syne's Avatar
 
Absorb and Redirect

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,626

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

This is a total n00b question but it's something I haven't understood despite watching football for so long now:

Obviously, I understand the penalty for defense having 11+ players on the field AT THE SNAP. What I don't get it is when well in advance of the snap, there is a penalty for defense having too many on the field? In what circumstances is this illegal such that there is a penalty BEFORE THE SNAP? Broncos seem to have had this called against us a few times this season, and I don't think I get when the penalty is called at the snap versus whistling the play dead well in advance.
s0phr0syne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 11:12 AM   #7
enjolras
Ring of Famer
 
enjolras's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by s0phr0syne View Post
This is a total n00b question but it's something I haven't understood despite watching football for so long now:

Obviously, I understand the penalty for defense having 11+ players on the field AT THE SNAP. What I don't get it is when well in advance of the snap, there is a penalty for defense having too many on the field? In what circumstances is this illegal such that there is a penalty BEFORE THE SNAP? Broncos seem to have had this called against us a few times this season, and I don't think I get when the penalty is called at the snap versus whistling the play dead well in advance.
The new rule is that if the defense lines up with 12 men on the field it's a penalty at that point if no player is obviously attempting to get off the field once the offense is set. This is a dead-ball penalty.

If a player is attempting to get off the field the referee will allow the play to run and the rule will be enforced as before.
enjolras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 11:15 AM   #8
s0phr0syne
Symbiotic
 
s0phr0syne's Avatar
 
Absorb and Redirect

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,626

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enjolras View Post
The new rule is that if the defense lines up with 12 men on the field it's a penalty at that point if no player is obviously attempting to get off the field once the offense is set. This is a dead-ball penalty.

If a player is attempting to get off the field the referee will allow the play to run and the rule will be enforced as before.

Thanks!
s0phr0syne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 11:23 AM   #9
baja
Headmaster
 
baja's Avatar
 
The Fixer

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 61,396

Adopt-a-Bronco:
C J Anderson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enjolras View Post
The new rule is that if the defense lines up with 12 men on the field it's a penalty at that point if no player is obviously attempting to get off the field once the offense is set. This is a dead-ball penalty.

If a player is attempting to get off the field the referee will allow the play to run and the rule will be enforced as before.
In that 12 man play lat Sunday I thought the 12th man WAS running off the field
baja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 11:37 AM   #10
s0phr0syne
Symbiotic
 
s0phr0syne's Avatar
 
Absorb and Redirect

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,626

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

The extra player(s) were running off the field, that's why PM rushed the snap, essentially knowing it would be a free play.

(of course it took a challenge to confirm this)

So it fell into what enjolras described as being the rule: if the players are aware that they are on the field and thus trying to get off of it, the refs wait and allow the play to occur. If the D has 11+ players and don't seem to be aware of it, instead just lined up in formation that way, then they whistle the play dead.
s0phr0syne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 12:19 PM   #11
jerseyguy4
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by s0phr0syne View Post
The extra player(s) were running off the field, that's why PM rushed the snap, essentially knowing it would be a free play.

(of course it took a challenge to confirm this)

So it fell into what enjolras described as being the rule: if the players are aware that they are on the field and thus trying to get off of it, the refs wait and allow the play to occur. If the D has 11+ players and don't seem to be aware of it, instead just lined up in formation that way, then they whistle the play dead.
It is sort of like the difference between being lined in the neutral zone (not blown dead) and unabated to the QB (blown dead). I would guess the rule change was meant to protect the offense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 02:03 PM   #12
enjolras
Ring of Famer
 
enjolras's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseyguy4 View Post
It is sort of like the difference between being lined in the neutral zone (not blown dead) and unabated to the QB (blown dead). I would guess the rule change was meant to protect the offense.
It was instituted after the superbowl last year. Late in the game the Giants had 12 men on defense and the Patriots ran a play. The play took quite awhile (8 seconds I think) and resulted in an incomplete pass. The argument was that the Giants had the luxury of an extra defender which made the play less likely to succeed, but still took a bunch of time off the clock.

So they changed it to a dead-ball foul so no time runs off unless the defender is running off because that gives the offense an advantage (a free play with 11-on-11).
enjolras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 04:16 PM   #13
Orange_Beard
Over Jay Cutler
 
Orange_Beard's Avatar
 
Todd Snider Rules!

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Leucadia, CA
Posts: 7,790

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Tony Scheffler
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spdirty View Post
I use to hate it. Use to say it was chickenshlt football. Now I love it.
Agree 100%
Orange_Beard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 04:28 PM   #14
baja
Headmaster
 
baja's Avatar
 
The Fixer

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the present moment
Posts: 61,396

Adopt-a-Bronco:
C J Anderson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange_Beard View Post
Agree 100%

Ya Manning is even a lot better looking than he used to be and all of a sudden I like his commercials and his head doesn't seen as big.... well maybe not that.
baja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 04:31 PM   #15
Mogulseeker
Formerly mightysmurf
 
Mogulseeker's Avatar
 
Eat greedy

Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Boulder... Vail when it snoooows
Posts: 16,931

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Lamin Barrow
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enjolras View Post
The new rule is that if the defense lines up with 12 men on the field it's a penalty at that point if no player is obviously attempting to get off the field once the offense is set. This is a dead-ball penalty.

If a player is attempting to get off the field the referee will allow the play to run and the rule will be enforced as before.
There's a 12 men in the huddle penalty, too, no?
Mogulseeker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 04:38 PM   #16
enjolras
Ring of Famer
 
enjolras's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightysmurf View Post
There's a 12 men in the huddle penalty, too, no?
I believe that is an offensive penalty (I'm not aware of any rules that recognize a defensive huddle).
enjolras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 04:46 PM   #17
Mediator12
OM analyst
 
Mediator12's Avatar
 
Roby AND Latimer?Who the Hell Knew?

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: INDY
Posts: 10,135

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Malik Jackson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enjolras View Post
I believe that is an offensive penalty (I'm not aware of any rules that recognize a defensive huddle).
That is correct. 12 men in the huddle does not allow the defense time to substitute properly, even after one runs off....
Mediator12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 05:16 PM   #18
The Joker
Ring of Famer
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
New to the Forum

Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,295

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

I don't like it personally, but I won't complain too much as it's helping us!

However, I would have thought that if you are going to do it you'd be better off launching a deep pass down the field and hoping for a long completion/defensive PI.

If it's a free play you may as well try and go for a big gain knowing that any INT will be coming back. Maybe there wasn't enough time to communicate that to a WR?
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 05:23 PM   #19
That One Guy
Producer of Nonsense
 

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sun and Beachville
Posts: 14,033

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
I don't like it personally, but I won't complain too much as it's helping us!

However, I would have thought that if you are going to do it you'd be better off launching a deep pass down the field and hoping for a long completion/defensive PI.


If it's a free play you may as well try and go for a big gain knowing that any INT will be coming back. Maybe there wasn't enough time to communicate that to a WR?
This x 1 gazillion.

I've been ranting about this plenty but to intentionally run a crappy play just for the sake of getting 5 easy yards is silly when you consider that the ref has to catch it. There's been at least twice that we've had to burn timeouts because he wanted the cheap yards and, in doing so, he was unable to call a successful play in the haste.

Someone made the argument that challenges aren't what they used to be and that's a very valid point but, still, I'd rather they earn the yards (or at least try to) rather than keep letting this attempt to be slick blow up in their faces. The time we have no challenge will be the time it really makes a difference.
That One Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 08:01 PM   #20
enjolras
Ring of Famer
 
enjolras's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
I don't like it personally, but I won't complain too much as it's helping us!

However, I would have thought that if you are going to do it you'd be better off launching a deep pass down the field and hoping for a long completion/defensive PI.

If it's a free play you may as well try and go for a big gain knowing that any INT will be coming back. Maybe there wasn't enough time to communicate that to a WR?
I think the bigger issue is that there is no time to call a protection. The idea is to just snap the ball, get your penalty, and don't risk Peyton getting steamrolled because you didn't have an protection in place.
enjolras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 08:05 PM   #21
jerseyguy4
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by That One Guy View Post
...I'd rather they earn the yards (or at least try to) rather than keep letting this attempt to be slick blow up in their faces. The time we have no challenge will be the time it really makes a difference.
It's not often a challenge or a timeout is involved in getting the 5 yarder. These were exceptions, not the norm.

The point isn't to be slick. They're lining up fast anyway. If they're lined up and the opportunity presents itself, they may as well take advantage
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 08:17 PM   #22
Fedaykin
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,123

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

On the one hand it seems like a b**** move; on the other hand the defense subbing could be used as a tactic to slow down the hurry up offense so might as well make 'em jump.
Fedaykin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 09:26 PM   #23
That One Guy
Producer of Nonsense
 

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sun and Beachville
Posts: 14,033

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseyguy4 View Post
It's not often a challenge or a timeout is involved in getting the 5 yarder. These were exceptions, not the norm.

The point isn't to be slick. They're lining up fast anyway. If they're lined up and the opportunity presents itself, they may as well take advantage
Those instances where a challenge was burnt particularly stand out to me so I can't say the numbers of times it's happened (oh, and I've not had a lot of games on local TV) so you may be right that it was minimal. It just didn't seem like it to me.

That said, my biggest concern is just that the plays aren't run in a way that really allows any major benefit aside from the 5 yard gain. If you watch Rodgers in GB when he gets someone offsides, you can bet money that it's gonna be thrown 40 yards downfield. Every. Single. Time. If the team (Read: Peyton) were to institute a rule where this scenario instantly meant Hail Mary or something, I'd be all for it. They'd just have to announce it fast and execute in a way Peyton doesn't get destroyed.

I just don't like risking killing a drive if the refs don't catch it or if somehow the guy gets off the field because the plays I've seen it attempted with were generally basic run up the gut plays that this team just can't turn into much.
That One Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 09:27 PM   #24
That One Guy
Producer of Nonsense
 

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sun and Beachville
Posts: 14,033

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
On the one hand it seems like a b**** move; on the other hand the defense subbing could be used as a tactic to slow down the hurry up offense so might as well make 'em jump.
That's a good point. Peyton could be using it just to deter them from subbing because they'll be paranoid.
That One Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:32 PM.


Denver Broncos