Don't Say You Weren't Warned

[Rohirrim]

File under, "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

Glenn Hubbard is Romney's chief economic advisor. He wrote the foreward to Romney's campaign tract, Believe in America. So, who is he? Where is he from? Does he have a track record?

First, Hubbard has an abysmal track record in economic policy, including the very issues that Romney has made the pillar of his Presidential campaign. Second, like Romney, Hubbard refuses to disclose critical information about his income, conflicts of interest, and paid advocacy activities. Third, both in public statements and in my personal experience, Hubbard has been evasive, misleading, and even dishonest when discussing both policy issues and his own conflicts of interest. And last but not least, those conflicts of interest are huge: Hubbard has long advocated policies that Wall Street loves, often without disclosing that he is, in fact, highly paid by Wall Street.

Let's start with tax cuts, since Romney claims that he can cut tax rates sharply without increasing the deficit, and without benefiting the rich. Mr. Romney claims that tax cuts will be fully paid for by closing loopholes and deductions, and will not add to the deficit; Hubbard has publicly supported Romney's claims. Interestingly, Mr. Hubbard has quite a record on this very issue. Shortly after becoming chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors in 2001, he spearheaded the Bush administration's tax cuts, and he said lots about them.

How did that work out? First, we now know that over half of the benefits of the Bush-Hubbard tax cuts went to the top 1% of the population. In part to benefit the wealthy, the tax cuts were also structured to reward investment in financial assets, rather than either consumer spending or real capital investment. As a result, the tax cuts caused huge budget deficits, yet did little to stimulate growth or job creation: There were basically no new jobs created during the Bush administration, despite adding trillions to the national debt.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charle...b_2029609.html

[Rohirrim]

A bipartisan research team at the Tax Policy Center (TPC) in Washington ran the numbers and concluded that "any revenue-neutral individual income tax change that incorporates the features Gov. Romney has proposed would provide large tax cuts to high-income households, and increase the tax burdens on middle- and/or lower-income taxpayers." Some voters will think that's great -- just not the voters Romney still needs.
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/...-economy-plan/

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

^

Good thing for Romney that the sheep who plan to vote for him don't believe in arithmetic.

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

A bipartisan research team at the Tax Policy Center (TPC) in Washington ran the numbers and concluded that "any revenue-neutral individual income tax change that incorporates the features Gov. Romney has proposed would provide large tax cuts to high-income households, and increase the tax burdens on middle- and/or lower-income taxpayers." Some voters will think that's great -- just not the voters Romney still needs.
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/...-economy-plan/

Yes, but the problem is most voters are low information and/or stupid. And then even the bright Romney supporters ignore these truths and cling tighter to their support for him/hatred of Obama. The facts just don't seem to matter, and the Romney campaign has done a very good job of exploiting this.

[DAN_BRONCO_FAN]

Originally Posted by TonyR

Yes, but the problem is most voters are low information and/or stupid. And then even the bright Romney supporters ignore these truths and cling tighter to their support for him/hatred of Obama. The facts just don't seem to matter, and the Romney campaign has done a very good job of exploiting this.

just like when they voted for obama lmfao ya know how price of gas went up deficiet got even more higher obama care bankrupting or trying to coal industry energy rates getting higher because of him , unemployment is getting higher because of obama , but dont blame obama blame bush for everything bushes fault for the past 4 years vote obama again not romney or 3rd party

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by TonyR

Yes, but the problem is most voters are low information and/or stupid. And then even the bright Romney supporters ignore these truths and cling tighter to their support for him/hatred of Obama. The facts just don't seem to matter, and the Romney campaign has done a very good job of exploiting this.

President Obama has added more to the U.S. taxpayer debt than any President in the history of the U.S.

Yet all you have are insults and contempt for people like me who point this out. Why?

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by pricejj

President Obama has added more to the U.S. taxpayer debt than any President in the history of the U.S.

Bull****.

Give us the list of the "multiple wars" Obama has started (as you claimed the other day):

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by W*GS

Bull****.

Give us the list of the "multiple wars" Obama has started (as you claimed the other day):

Are you attempting to deny that the Obama administration has conducted unauthorized military actions in Libya, Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia? Along with sanctions in Eritrea?

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by pricejj

Are you attempting to deny that the Obama administration has conducted unauthorized military actions in Libya, Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia? Along with sanctions in Eritrea?

Now you're backpedaling. "Unauthorized military actions" and "multiple wars" are two different things.

Your rhetoric needs a lot of improvement. Then again, you didn't mind Bush engaging in way more "unauthorized military actions" when he was Prez, so why are you b****ing now?

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by DAN_BRONCO_FAN

just like when they voted for obama lmfao ya know how price of gas went up deficiet got even more higher obama care bankrupting or trying to coal industry energy rates getting higher because of him , unemployment is getting higher because of obama , but dont blame obama blame bush for everything bushes fault for the past 4 years vote obama again not romney or 3rd party

Any sane, rational person would vote for Obama over McCain/Palin again, even with 20/20 hindsight. It's a no brainer. Just as Obama over Romney is.

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by pricejj

President Obama has added more to the U.S. taxpayer debt than any President in the history of the U.S.

Yet all you have are insults and contempt for people like me who point this out. Why?

We've been over this many, many times. The debt has swelled largely because of the largest recession since the great depression and the two wars we're fighting. I have contempt for your lack of logic, reason, perspective, and thoughtfulness. You're clearly intelligent but you're not using it. You're letting bias, emotion, and ignorance cloud your judgement.

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by TonyR

We've been over this many, many times. The debt has swelled largely because of the largest recession since the great depression and the two wars we're fighting. I have contempt for your lack of logic, reason, perspective, and thoughtfulness. You're clearly intelligent but you're not using it. You're letting bias, emotion, and ignorance cloud your judgement.

That's not true TonyR. Obama has increased federal spending to 24%-25% of GDP for the last four years, which is unprecedented post WWII. That is the reason for Obama's record deficits.

[DAN_BRONCO_FAN]

Originally Posted by TonyR

Any sane, rational person would vote for Obama over McCain/Palin again, even with 20/20 hindsight. It's a no brainer. Just as Obama over Romney is.

so you are in favor of Bankrupt the Coal Industry ?




guess you dont mind paying higher energy bills but i do so im voting for the guy who will lower it
also dont like obama care either

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by W*GS

Now you're backpedaling. "Unauthorized military actions" and "multiple wars" are two different things.

You can call unauthorized military actions in Libya, Yemen, Pakistan, Somalia and Uganda anything you want. But the fact is, it's "war" in any sense of the word. I'm not going to argue with you about how you prefer to refer to it. I call it war. The President is bombing people, and sending troops in without authority.

Originally Posted by W*GS

Your rhetoric needs a lot of improvement. Then again, you didn't mind Bush engaging in way more "unauthorized military actions" when he was Prez, so why are you b****ing now?

That's not true either. I have been against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq from the very start. I am against the killing of innocent civilians. Unfortunately those wars have been approved, extended, and expanded by Obama and the Democrats.

[Rohirrim]

This thread is about Romney using the same economic advisers Bush used and coming to the same conclusions; ie, tax cuts for the rich, taxes raised on everybody else, and adding it all to the deficit.

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

This thread is about Romney using the same economic adviseors Bush used and coming to the same conclusions; ie, tax cuts for the rich, taxes raised on everybody else, and adding it all to the deficit.

And then when you factor in the same foreign policy advisors, it's pretty much end of discussion on which of the two candidates you should be voting for.

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by TonyR

And then when you factor in the same foreign policy advisors, it's pretty much end of discussion on which of the two candidates you should be voting for.

Exactly. If pricejj were as upset about Bush foreign policy as he claims, he'd be absolutely LIVID at who Romney is going with.

But nope, he is just another in a long line of nincompoops from the right who claim they lean independent but are de facto republicans looking for any reason not to vote independent.

[elsid13]

So Obama administration is activity going after individuals that are attempting to murder Americans and some are b****ing about it. WFT?

[orinjkrush]

mixing foreign affairs with economics,i have no problem with putting UCAVs on banksters (G20). that includes the charlatan Repug & Democ macro and micro economists. "what, we didn't see any problems coming!" hope they don't see the Predators either.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by pricejj

President Obama has added more to the U.S. taxpayer debt than any President in the history of the U.S.

Yet all you have are insults and contempt for people like me who point this out. Why?

You're such a shameless liar.

Obama did not create $5 trillion in new debt, and here is the proof.

Pricejj's favorite talking point is absolutely destroyed with facts and evidence...

GOP Debunked: Obama did not create $5 trillion in new debt

Republican pundits love to say that the national debt has increased by $5 trillion because of President Obama. Factually, that statement is simply untrue. Let's examine the evidence.

Of the alleged $5 trillion, $1.6 trillion is related to costs of the Iraq/Afghanistan Wars. These were costs George W. Bush intentionally hid from the budget, and that President Obama allowed to be calculated when he assumed office.
Note that Obama could have continued to hide the bill as Bush did, passing it along to his successor.

President Bush was able to manipulate funding for the Iraq/Afghanistan wars using special emergency authorization bills. He did this because, as you recall, the Democrats were attempting to defund the war legislatively.

The overall point is simple: Obama, as president, authorized not one cent of that $1.6 trillion to be spent.

It has been previously reported by marketwatch.com that President Obama increased overall government spending by a smaller margin than any modern president, all the way to President Eisenhower.

Rex Nutting at marketwatch clarifies:

What people forget (or never knew) is that the first year of every presidential term starts with a budget approved by the previous administration and Congress. The president only begins to shape the budget in his second year. It takes time to develop a budget and steer it through Congress — especially in these days of congressional gridlock.

Over $1.4 trillion was spent on interest payments caused by the already standing debt.

Knowing that, let's examine the GOP's argument.

They say President Obama has spent too much, but 32% of the total amount they claim has been spent is a direct result of Republican presidential policies, and previous spending.

President Obama is stuck paying the bill for the previous GOP administrations of Reagan, H.W. Bush, and W. Bush. President Clinton left with a surplus if you recall, and added nothing to our debt. This point has been discussed constantly, and was even visited by President Obama's former Press Secretary Jay Carney during a press gaggle.

It is not disputed that the national debt was $10 trillion before President Obama took office.

The interest that is paid on the debt today was created by the very same people who now are attempting to blame the cost of that interest on the president. Do not allow yourself to be fooled, the GOP is attempting to blame the president for something they caused.

Now our journey of $5 trillion has been twiddled down to $2 trillion.
Another piece of the puzzle is that the CBO projected because of the Bush Era Tax Cuts, our government lost over $1.6 trillion in projected revenue. Of course, these unpaid taxes were supposed to create jobs for the middle class. The tax cuts have been in place for over 10 years, one would think our nation would be swimming in jobs. Yet, friends, that is not the case.

If reasonable tax rates were in place that were similar to those used while President Clinton was in office -- America's fiscal outlook would be more optimistic.

This leaves only $400 billion to be unaccounted for, and surely the fervor about reckless spending can not be over that amount because in that regard there are many instances where the GOP is equally guilty, if not more culpable. For example, our nation is still paying for the wasteful Medicare part D plan. Passed in 2003 and enacted in 2006, it has been estimated to cost a staggering $17 trillion in unfunded liabilities. Others put a more conservative price of $8 trillion including former head of the U.S. Government Accountability Office, David Walker.

$8 - $17 trillion in spending, and yet they say President Obama is the reckless spender? No matter how you look at the numbers, the GOP is guilty of at least one-and-a-half more spending, or three times as much spending. How can they claim to be the party of fiscal responsibility?

The overall premise of the argument has now been debunked, and the truth is quite clear; 88% of the debt which the GOP blames on President Obama was not created as a consequence of his policies.

[Vegas_Bronco]

Obama has 2% GDP production...that is enough to make me vote the other way. His plan is not creating jobs so who gives a damn about taxes for the poor...they dont have work. Maybe we should expand the govt to give them working? I know hundreds if ppl that are underemployed or out of work and they would gladly pay more tax for the opportunity to work. Unlike most, Americans like to work and be taxed for their freedoms.

I hope you all vote for the wellbeing of others around you and not just fir the tax breaks you may or may not get or to save your job...that is petty and shortsighted given the current Depression we are in with unemployment incorrectly reported at 13%.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Vegas_Bronco

Obama has 2% GDP production...that is enough to make me vote the other way. His plan is not creating jobs so who gives a damn about taxes for the poor...they dont have work. Maybe we should expand the govt to give them working? I know hundreds if ppl that are underemployed or out of work and they would gladly pay more tax for the opportunity to work. Unlike most, Americans like to work and be taxed for their freedoms.

I hope you all vote for the wellbeing of others around you and not just fir the tax breaks you may or may not get or to save your job...that is petty and shortsighted given the current Depression we are in with unemployment incorrectly reported at 13%.

L0L!

Talk about a concoction of right-wing talk radio propaganda and goofy anecdotal "evidence."

I guess Romney is the candidate of choice for people who don't believe in facts, arithmetic, etc.

[Rohirrim]

I really must be living in the wrong universe. Maybe it's because the majority of Americans are medicated and I'm not? I just don't understand. The tax cut and spend policies of George Bush, combined with the deregulation of the banksters, which was driven by the Republicans, has created the worst depression in America in 80 years. Now, not only do the Republicans blame it on the guy who came into office after the train wreck they caused, but they want to elect a vulture capitalist who has the same Bush people on his economics team, and wants to reapply the same Bush policies? Help me out here. Isn't that the definition of insanity?

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by Vegas_Bronco

Obama has 2% GDP production...that is enough to make me vote the other way. His plan is not creating jobs so who gives a damn about taxes for the poor...they dont have work. Maybe we should expand the govt to give them working? I know hundreds if ppl that are underemployed or out of work and they would gladly pay more tax for the opportunity to work. Unlike most, Americans like to work and be taxed for their freedoms.

I hope you all vote for the wellbeing of others around you and not just fir the tax breaks you may or may not get or to save your job...that is petty and shortsighted given the current Depression we are in with unemployment incorrectly reported at 13%.

Aaaaand I'm calling BS. You were the same guy who (incorrectly) thought Arizona had every right to attempt to leave Obama off the ballot. You are ALSO yet another of the republican idiocracy searching for any reason to not vote independent. We know why you're not voting Obama, and it has nothing to do with the economy.

[orinjkrush]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

I really must be living in the wrong universe. Maybe it's because the majority of Americans are medicated and I'm not? I just don't understand. The tax cut and spend policies of George Bush, combined with the deregulation of the banksters, which was driven by the Republicans, has created the worst depression in America in 80 years. Now, not only do the Republicans blame it on the guy who came into office after the train wreck they caused, but they want to elect a vulture capitalist who has the same Bush people on his economics team, and wants to reapply the same Bush policies? Help me out here. Isn't that the definition of insanity?

sure seems so to me. good summarization.