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Old 06-06-2013, 10:53 PM   #1426
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I think my top five are: Jordan, Magic, LeBron, Russell, Chamberlain. I've never watched the latter two play, but Russell's championships speak for themselves and Chamberlain literally had rules changed because of his dominance. Not to mention, one year he felt like leading the league in assists so he did it.

Duncan is awesome, but im not sure his place. Him and Shaq are on pretty even plane for me.

Me either , I just hear him called the best 4 of all time a lot and can't think of another true 4 better than him unless it's Malone , Garnett or someone before my time.

You going with Russell and Chamberlain on paper is the right move if the 4 and 5 are interchangeable.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:55 PM   #1427
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yea and so hard to do with basketball with what you said and with how different the game is with addition of the 3 and the rules in general.

Who knows how many points Jerry West has if there's 3's and stuff like that.


And trying to judge guards to centers is just pointless. It's better to just say I think so and so is the best of all time and then name the best at the other spots. Like how you mentioned a all time starting 5...

I'll take Magic , Jordan , Bird , Duncan and Russell and you can have the field hehehe....
K, Stockton, Bryant, James, Barkley, Abdul Jabar. I might have you in 2 positions. But could you imagine what kind of game that would be?
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:01 PM   #1428
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The guy makes decisions that reduce accountability when provided the opportunity to shrink from the moment. When he has no other choice he'll take the shot, but otherwise he's looking to pass.

He also up until last year had an inconsistent mastery of back-to-basket moves and outside jumpers, which made him a one trick pony that was easier to neutralize in late game situations; forcing a teammate to take a three.

Lebron teams are almost always built with a stretch four because he is a ball dominant forward who runs isos on the top of the key with a problematic inside shot or outside pass dilemma that he forces onto the opposing defense, spacing the 4 out is necessary for this style to work.

The phenomenons above causes his drives to create plays but chews up a lot of shot clock time to create those plays which often turns into an outside jumpshot for a teammate. His effect on the game reflects that of a bigman even though he is a perimeter player. The end result is that you'll notice every bigman who has ever played with Lebron has posted less impressive statistics than with him, this is not true of other superstar perimeter players(even though Lebron posts more assists, he actually hurts the bigman he plays with).

But his biggest problem by far is that while he dominates the ball like a 2 guard... in key momentum situations where a real guard with a strong outside and back to basket game (and the determination) can get a bucket to hold off a run; he simply passes. Tonight, that play was when the heat were up by 2 points and Lebron made multiple passes, one of which was a turnover that lead to a Tony Parker layup on the other end. He also passed up an open 3 that could've put the heat up by 4 earlier in the game. Finally, he had a inside shot at the hoop against a back-tracking duncan and passed it up for their power forward to take a 3point shot.

The combination of his ball domination style and his lack of assertiveness on scoring the basketball (a problem that Magic Johnson did not have).. when momentum shifts require a bucket from his team; causes there to be a serious offensive rhythm breakdown in many key pressure situations. If you actually sat down play by play and looked at the key momentum changing plays of each game you'll notice that Lebron plays hot-potato with the basketball in moments where he needs to have the stones to shoot the damn basketball.

The heat are a better team with Wade taking point in the 4th quarter for this reason.

As for top 5... you're the one who is disrespecting great players if you think Lebron is top 5.

MJ, Larry, Magic & Kobe are all dominating back court players with 5 rings or more.

Jabbar & Russell both have more exemplary careers as winners.

Wilt was more dominant both physically and statistically than Lebron could ever be. Shaq just as well, and with 3 more rings.

Duncan has the more distinguished career right now and has 5 rings going on six if he beats Lebron this series.

Lebron after winning 1 tittle belongs AT BEST - in the conversation with Hakeem and the big O as guys who won one or two titles and had many dominant regular season runs.


I agree with about all of this ... BUT it's a team game , it's kinda like you can argue if you want'ed Dan is the best Qb of all time even tho he doesn't have a ring ... You can make a point for it , you'd be wrong cause it's Elway , but you can argue it and I won't call you retarded lol ... If you get what I'm saying heheh ....


That being said when someone mentions Lebron being as good as Jordan I play that video I posted earlier and say maybe 5 rings from now...
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:21 PM   #1429
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Duncan has 4 rings not 5...
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:28 PM   #1430
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Duncan has 4 rings not 5...
Good pick up on that

And just to correct myself before i screw up more, Larry actually had 3 rings

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Old 06-06-2013, 11:31 PM   #1431
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K, Stockton, Bryant, James, Barkley, Abdul Jabar. I might have you in 2 positions. But could you imagine what kind of game that would be?
Yea doing a quick 2 person top starting five NBA draft is endless fun especially if you can't pick someone who's been picked.


Used to do this on nba live in the 90s when me and my best friend got sick of playing Bulls vs Pacers over and over heheh.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:31 PM   #1432
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I agree with about all of this ... BUT it's a team game , it's kinda like you can argue if you want'ed Dan is the best Qb of all time even tho he doesn't have a ring ... You can make a point for it , you'd be wrong cause it's Elway , but you can argue it and I won't call you retarded lol ... If you get what I'm saying heheh ....


That being said when someone mentions Lebron being as good as Jordan I play that video I posted earlier and say maybe 5 rings from now...
Lebron is one of the most dominating basketball players ever, I'm just really really hesitant to give him the nod against some of those championship winning living legends.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:32 PM   #1433
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Lebron is one of the most dominating basketball players ever, I'm just really really hesitant to give him the nod against some of those championship winning living legends.
Pretty much.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:37 PM   #1434
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Yea doing a quick 2 person top starting five NBA draft is endless fun especially if you can't pick someone who's been picked.


Used to do this on nba live in the 90s when me and my best friend got sick of playing Bulls vs Pacers over and over heheh.
My all time team:

Half court triangle style (Phil Jackson as Coach)

PG - Larry Bird
SG - Kobe Bryant
SF - Michael Jordan
PF - Hakeem Olajuwon
C - Shaq

Idea of that team is smothering size and high basketball IQ. Retains all the hall of famers (minus scottie pippen) to have played in Tex Winter's triangle. Technically when run perfectly a Triangle offense does not require an actual point guard, and I'm using both the older more pass-willing versions of Kobe and Michael.


My all time run & gun show time team (Pat Riley team)

PG - Magic
SG - Michael
SF - Larry
PF - Lebron
C - Wilt (really wanted to put Kareem here, but I'm going with the greatest athletic freak of NBA history who can run up and down the basketball court about as fast as any player ever, and who can easily jump higher than both Air Jordan and Lebron James).

Only goal is to score score score, run, run, run.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:41 AM   #1435
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First off, I'm going to leave this right here...



Let's not act like Jordan took every big shot. He took a lot of them, sure, but not all of them. He too made the right basketball play. Chris Bosh didn't have anyone within 10 feet of him. He needs to make that shot.

Also, let's not forget LeBron had a triple double in the game.

Most Triple-Doubles - NBA Finals History
Magic Johnson 8
LeBron James 3
Walt Frazier 2
Bob Cousy 2
Bill Russell 2
Larry Bird 2
Wilt Chamberlain 2

"...Just sayin'," as the kids like to say.


Oh, and calling him "beta," really? Take that **** back to reddit or 4chan or wherever it came from bro.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:54 AM   #1436
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^ Good post, Rhyme. I'm not ready to call LeBron "the best" or whatever. But he can do more all around than any of the guys who are most often called the best. So he has the potential to get there. I find the criticism of him a bit amusing. Does make one wonder what people are watching. I think it's more that they hate him than anything else. Can't get past "The Decision" as if that really matters in the grand scheme of things.
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:05 AM   #1437
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First off, I'm going to leave this right here...



Let's not act like Jordan took every big shot. He took a lot of them, sure, but not all of them. He too made the right basketball play. Chris Bosh didn't have anyone within 10 feet of him. He needs to make that shot.

Also, let's not forget LeBron had a triple double in the game.

Most Triple-Doubles - NBA Finals History
Magic Johnson 8
LeBron James 3
Walt Frazier 2
Bob Cousy 2
Bill Russell 2
Larry Bird 2
Wilt Chamberlain 2

"...Just sayin'," as the kids like to say.


Oh, and calling him "beta," really? Take that **** back to reddit or 4chan or wherever it came from bro.
Lmao. Chris Bosh isn't Dirk Nowitzki, he's not expected to be Automatic at 25+ feet with or without a hand in his face. Lebron is an inside scorer, that's what he does, it should be a 2 point layup or foul within 8 feet of the basket for Lebron. He gave up that shot, he does this repeatedly in crunch time; it reflects the behavior of a scared man. All the other superstars crave the chance to take that shot. Lebron doesn't, he passes it up because he shies from the moment - that makes him Beta.

Well, good job with the kiddie argument but "just saying" that he has 3 triple doubles as he's playing his fourth finals series, all on teams that are built around off-ball shot makers who let him dominate the rock all game isn't saying much.

Oh and your video? 2 points.

1.) In bounds play that Phil Drew up to get an open shot.
2.) Michaels sitting 20+ feet from the basket and would have to take a contested jumper if not pass it to Pippen. That's different from driving down the lane for your favorite shot only to turn around and pass it to a power forward shooting 3's.

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Old 06-07-2013, 07:27 AM   #1438
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Jordan pushed off of Russell, which was a blatant foul, in the 6th or maybe it was the 7th game to win the championship against the Jazz in the last run against "Stockton and Malone". The refs gave the "man" differential rules compared to others because he drew the money for the league. Jordan screwed Malone out of a chance to get a ring because the refs had their noses attached to his butt.... I hope they don't do that with James against the Spurs, but you can bet your azz they'll try..
lol what? it was game 6 in Utah and the Bulls were always going to win that series. Stockton and Malone weren't good enough alone to beat that Bulls team. no one was.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:31 AM   #1439
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My all time team:

Half court triangle style (Phil Jackson as Coach)

PG - Larry Bird
SG - Kobe Bryant
SF - Michael Jordan
PF - Hakeem Olajuwon
C - Shaq

Idea of that team is smothering size and high basketball IQ. Retains all the hall of famers (minus scottie pippen) to have played in Tex Winter's triangle. Technically when run perfectly a Triangle offense does not require an actual point guard, and I'm using both the older more pass-willing versions of Kobe and Michael.


My all time run & gun show time team (Pat Riley team)

PG - Magic
SG - Michael
SF - Larry
PF - Lebron
C - Wilt (really wanted to put Kareem here, but I'm going with the greatest athletic freak of NBA history who can run up and down the basketball court about as fast as any player ever, and who can easily jump higher than both Air Jordan and Lebron James).

Only goal is to score score score, run, run, run.
I think with the remaining players I would go

PG- Oscar Robertson
SG- Julius Erving
SF- Scottie Pippen
PF- Karl Malone
C- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:39 AM   #1440
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I wonder why maven isn't joining in on the conversation. Oh that's right. She will after the heat wins a game.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:42 AM   #1441
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I wonder why maven isn't joining in on the conversation. Oh that's right. She will after the heat wins a game.
Just wait tell Lebron leaves the Heat for a team that can compete.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:53 AM   #1442
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My all time team:

Half court triangle style (Phil Jackson as Coach)

PG - Larry Bird
SG - Kobe Bryant
SF - Michael Jordan
PF - Hakeem Olajuwon
C - Shaq

Idea of that team is smothering size and high basketball IQ. Retains all the hall of famers (minus scottie pippen) to have played in Tex Winter's triangle. Technically when run perfectly a Triangle offense does not require an actual point guard, and I'm using both the older more pass-willing versions of Kobe and Michael.


My all time run & gun show time team (Pat Riley team)

PG - Magic
SG - Michael
SF - Larry
PF - Lebron
C - Wilt (really wanted to put Kareem here, but I'm going with the greatest athletic freak of NBA history who can run up and down the basketball court about as fast as any player ever, and who can easily jump higher than both Air Jordan and Lebron James).

Only goal is to score score score, run, run, run.
No Tim Duncan? He has to be one of the greatest of all time that nobody talks about. This could be his third different team to win a title with if they win this year.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:01 AM   #1443
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The above is the most pessemistic misguided characterization of LeBron James I've ever read. Well done.
Pessimistic*
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:04 AM   #1444
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No Tim Duncan? He has to be one of the greatest of all time that nobody talks about. This could be his third different team to win a title with if they win this year.
It was really hard for me not to take him over Malone. I don't think you could go wrong with either guy though.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:06 AM   #1445
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Pessimistic*
Oh jesus christ, thanks for calling me out on spelling while i'm multitasking. I actually erased the comment above because I wanted to write something more detailed, but there's this rush to place LeBron in the pantheon right now when he's only 28. Jordan had a whole 1 championship (if that?) at this age. LeBron also wasted away in Cleveland, dragging dog**** teams, for years.

He's a different kind of player than Jordan, but this idea that he wastes possessions is asinine. I'd argue he has the best court vision in the league (certainly for a forward) and the team is designed to stretch defenses and hit threes around him. I'm not sure how anyone can really argue with the results. Three straight finals?
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:07 AM   #1446
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No Tim Duncan? He has to be one of the greatest of all time that nobody talks about. This could be his third different team to win a title with if they win this year.
It's more about who would play better in a supporting role for the talent and systems that I'm choosing and thinking of.

Also, Tim's a great PF, but if you allow Centers to play PF... Well, it's impossible to deny that Kareem and Hakeem are better low post players in general, and they are both capable of playing power forward if you have a huge center like Shaq or Wilt on the team.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:10 AM   #1447
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It's more about who would play better in a supporting role for the talent and systems that I'm choosing and thinking of.

Also, Tim's a great PF, but if you allow Centers to play PF... Well, it's impossible to deny that Kareem and Hakeem are better low post players in general, and they are both capable of playing power forward if you have a huge center like Shaq or Wilt on the team.
i think categorizing people into positions to "PF" and "C" is stupid. Bigs and smalls. Duncan is a post player and should be compared to other post players. He's great, for sure, one of the best. But I'd take Shaq, Wilt, Russell, over him. Hardly a knock on him though
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:10 AM   #1448
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Oh jesus christ, thanks for calling me out on spelling while i'm multitasking. I actually erased the comment above because I wanted to write something more detailed, but there's this rush to place LeBron in the pantheon right now when he's only 28. Jordan had a whole 1 championship (if that?) at this age. LeBron also wasted away in Cleveland, dragging dog**** teams, for years.

He's a different kind of player than Jordan, but this idea that he wastes possessions is asinine. I'd argue he has the best court vision in the league (certainly for a forward) and the team is designed to stretch defenses and hit threes around him. I'm not sure how anyone can really argue with the results. Three straight finals?
He has one of the best court visions in the league, yes. His game also requires teams to be built in the way that it is in Miami and Cleveland. What you are seeing in Miami is actually the perfect set of support players Lebron could ever hope for.

Bosh, Chalmers, Miller, Allen, Battier,etc... can all hit threes, with a couple of them being the most consistent catch and shoot guys in the league. Its not that Lebron's fulfilling his role, its that this is the kind of basketball you have to play if you want LeBron to thrive. He's a different kind of player is exactly the point i'm trying to make. I think his style lends itself to incredible numbers for him, tons of assists, but at the same time limits the off ball action that you see from other guys on the team.

I've yet to see LeBron succeed off ball.

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Old 06-07-2013, 09:13 AM   #1449
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He has one of the best court visions in the league, yes. His game also requires teams to be built in the way that it is in Miami and Cleveland. What you are seeing in Miami is actually the perfect set of support players Lebron could ever hope for.

Bosh, Chalmers, Miller, Allen, Battier,etc... can all hit threes, with a couple of them being the most consistent catch and shoot guys in the league. Its not that Lebron's fulfilling his role, its that this is the kind of basketball you have to play if you want LeBron to thrive.

I've yet to see LeBron succeed off ball.
Because its a waste to use him off ball. This happened in Miami's first year (when they did that stupid Wade take it/Bron take it switch off.. They had success (theres just too much talent not to) but hes a much more effective player when he's dictating the action because he can attack you from any level and consistently find the open man. Wanna know a Miami wasted possession? When Chalmers runs the point and LeBron sits in the corner.

If I'm Miami, I want him touching it every single possession and work through him. Like Magic.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:16 AM   #1450
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He has one of the best court visions in the league, yes. His game also requires teams to be built in the way that it is in Miami and Cleveland. What you are seeing in Miami is actually the perfect set of support players Lebron could ever hope for.

Bosh, Chalmers, Miller, Allen, Battier,etc... can all hit threes, with a couple of them being the most consistent catch and shoot guys in the league. Its not that Lebron's fulfilling his role, its that this is the kind of basketball you have to play if you want LeBron to thrive. He's a different kind of player is exactly the point i'm trying to make. I think his style lends itself to incredible numbers for him, tons of assists, but at the same time limits the off ball action that you see from other guys on the team.

I've yet to see LeBron succeed off ball.
I do agree sometimes LeBron thinks too much for his own good, but when he needs to take over games, he's been doing it. But he's an incredibly smart basketball player and looks for the smart play. And as you said, the team is currently perfectly constructed for him. Right now Miami's problem is health. Wade played well yesterday, but hasn't been the same. And Bosh has been out of sorts for a while. He needs those guys to step up like Michael's cohorts always seemed to do in the moment.

I just took issue with the beta male comment about him always deferring...LeBron has basically, single handedly, dragged this current Miami team into the finals.
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