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Old 06-06-2013, 10:39 PM   #1401
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Jordan pushed off of Russell, which was a blatant foul, in the 6th or maybe it was the 7th game to win the championship against the Jazz in the last run against "Stockton and Malone". The refs gave the "man" differential rules compared to others because he drew the money for the league. Jordan screwed Malone out of a chance to get a ring because the refs had their noses attached to his butt.... I hope they don't do that with James against the Spurs, but you can bet your azz they'll try..


I agree on the push off and trust me I used to about throw stuff at my tv over the calls he got but his Bulls teams was way better than those Jazz teams.

If Malone doesn't choke the play before they win . The steal by Jordan on Malone.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:53 PM   #1402
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I agree on the push off and trust me I used to about throw stuff at my tv over the calls he got but his Bulls teams was way better than those Jazz teams.

If Malone doesn't choke the play before they win . The steal by Jordan on Malone.
You are probably right about the team being better, but I think it was the 6th game and the Jazz should have gotten one more chance. And the probably right.. refers to the fact that Jordan got all kinds of calls favored toward him.....so maybe the team wasn't as good as all that. If they would have flagged the tongue hanging pretty boy when he deserved it, they may not have won all those games.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:57 PM   #1403
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You are probably right about the team being better, but I think it was the 6th game and the Jazz should have gotten one more chance. And the probably right.. refers to the fact that Jordan got all kinds of calls favored toward him.....so maybe the team wasn't as good as all that. If they would have flagged the tongue hanging pretty boy when he deserved it, they may not have won all those games.
Yea it was game 6 ... And yea he got so many calls , the Pacers fan in me is still bitter about it .

Dude was just so clutch tho at crunch time where Lebron just doesn't seem to be that like MJ and the others Willy named in the other post.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:00 PM   #1404
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Lebron when the games on the line = PASS PASS PASS PASS PASS.... hope for open layup.... PASS PASS PASS PASS.

His ass will forever be beta.
Do you not watch basketball?
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:01 PM   #1405
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People can talk about his talent all they want, but I sure as hell don't admire Lebron's mentality towards competition the way I looked up to MJ, or Larry, or Kobe, or Magic. Kobe and Michael especially crave the moment and the pressure, Lebron simply shrinks from it.

He wants to do the "right" thing.

Ha. The right thing.
Ok, now I know you don't watch much basketball.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:03 PM   #1406
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Totally agree , as a fan of one of the teams Jordan kept from getting a ring (Pacers) and usually rooting against M.J. because back then all my friends loved him and I had to be different . You always knew it was coming , M.J. was going to take over and just will it . When the team you wanted to win was winning vs those Bulls teams you just sit there in fear cause you knew how this was going to play out and it scared the crap out of you.


And even tho I rooted against him then Jordan is the best I ever seen and those Bulls teams would kill this Heat team.
They would. But the Bulls were hardly just Jordan. Scottie Pippen was probably the most underappreciated player of all time. The Bulls also had amazing complementary players and probably the best coach of all time. But lets not forget those Knicks and Pacers teams, which were historically, not amazing often gave those Bulls teams a run for their money.

And now we've finally pushed the goal posts on the LeBron to Jordan or bust? Alright then.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:05 PM   #1407
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Ok, now I know you don't watch much basketball.
/Ponder ...


So what are you saying Lebron is as good as those guys ? ... Admittedly he may be the most god given gifted player I ever seen , but he is just not M.J....

And as someone living in Cincinnati and kinda liked/like Lebron and at one time hoped he would be "the next Jordan" he's not Jordan.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:07 PM   #1408
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/Ponder ...


So what are you saying Lebron is as good as those guys ? ... Admittedly he may be the most god given gifted player I ever seen , but he is just not M.J....

And as someone living in Cincinnati and kinda liked/like Lebron and at one time hoped he would be "the next Jordan" he's not Jordan.
Ugh, so, again, he HAS to be Jordan or bust? He's in the top five. And he's had plenty of moments where he didn't "shrink." Hell, ALL LAST SERIES he didn't. Need more iconic games? 48 special. Game 6 in Boston last year.

And I know people love to remember that Jordan was great every single minute of his life, but of course that's silly. Jordan was an assassin, he's the best. But LeBron is only 28 (by the way, Jordan didnt win his first championship till then) and he's already a top five player ever in my opinion.

He doesn't have to be "Jordan." He's LeBron. And lets save this dumb "Who's better?" argument till his career's over.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:09 PM   #1409
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They would. But the Bulls were hardly just Jordan. Scottie Pippen was probably the most underappreciated player of all time. The Bulls also had amazing complementary players and probably the best coach of all time. But lets not forget those Knicks and Pacers teams, which were historically, not amazing often gave those Bulls teams a run for their money.

And now we've finally pushed the goal posts on the LeBron to Jordan or bust? Alright then.


Well played ... Good post /agree with about all of it ...

Pippen might not be the greatest underrated of all time but he's on the list.
Scottie just was a mental case at times. And yea people forget those Bulls teams was more than just MJ . Hell they had maybe the greatest rebounded of that era.


Good stuff all , moving on.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:09 PM   #1410
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Yea it was game 6 ... And yea he got so many calls , the Pacers fan in me is still bitter about it .

Dude was just so clutch tho at crunch time where Lebron just doesn't seem to be that like MJ and the others Willy named in the other post.
Hey....You'll never hear anything as exciting as.....'Stockton to Malone'...... ever again. It was classic.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:11 PM   #1411
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he's already a top five player ever in my opinion.
/ don't agree ...

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He doesn't have to be "Jordan." He's LeBron. And lets save this dumb "Who's better?" argument till his career's over.

/totally agree ...
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:13 PM   #1412
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Well played ... Good post /agree with about all of it ...

Pippen might not be the greatest underrated of all time but he's on the list.
Scottie just was a mental case at times. And yea people forget those Bulls teams was more than just MJ . Hell they had maybe the greatest rebounded of that era.


Good stuff all , moving on.
I always remember that season Jordan retired (the first time) as an appreciation for Pippen. He took the Bulls to the eastern conf. semis and only lost on that non call on Hubert Davis. He was an amazing basketball player that was keenly aware of his role. Plus, they had guys like Grant, Rodman, Kukoc, and a host of shooters to play off Jordan. Perfectly constructed team around a transcendent player.

I'm excited to see where LeBron's career goes and how he morphs into the latter part of his career. Jordan developed that killer jumper to round out his game, and I kind of see LeBron becoming a Magic/Malone clone as he creeps into his thirties.

Both the Spurs and Heat are the best teams in the league at making adjustments, and this is really the first team these teams have matched up against each other. I'm looking forward to a good series.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:14 PM   #1413
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/ don't agree ...




/totally agree ...
Whether you agree or not, its arguable, no?
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:17 PM   #1414
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Good post SonOfLe-loLang.

Most people forget that yea his nick name was "air" Jordan , but in crunch time for titles that back them down spin step back fade was what Jordan put teams away with in his prime.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:17 PM   #1415
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Whether you agree or not, its arguable, no?
totally.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:18 PM   #1416
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Good post SonOfLe-loLang.

Most people forget that yea his nick name was "air" Jordan , but in crunch time for titles that back them down spin step back fade was what Jordan put teams away with in his prime.
haha i ****in' hated that fade (im from ny, so i grew up a knicks fan.) Saw that thing way too many times.

I'll always have Starks dunking over him!
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:19 PM   #1417
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It's like arguing who's the greatest QB of all time , there's a list of guys you can claim to be "it" and not sound stupid stating that opinion ...

Lebron is totally worthy.

Edit: of being on your all time starting 5.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:23 PM   #1418
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LeBron will also be associated with the phoniest sincere departure statement ever....'I'm going to take my talents too.....oh this is so hard.....'.......bull crap.!
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:23 PM   #1419
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It's like arguing who's the greatest QB of all time , there's a list of guys you can claim to be "it" and not sound stupid stating that opinion ...

Lebron is totally worthy.

Edit: of being on your all time starting 5.
Basketball's kinda funny in the sense that its the only sport that pools every single player into the "greatest ever" conversation (well maybe hockey does too). In football, you can talk about greatest QB, WR, RB...baseball, greatest pitcher/hitter. But in basketball you rarely see greatest big/greatest little. Comparing Jordan to Russell/Chamberlain (who i've never seen play, but assume were dominant by looking at numbers) is a little silly considering their games couldnt be more different.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:25 PM   #1420
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LeBron will also be associated with the phoniest sincere departure statement ever....'I'm going to take my talents too.....oh this is so hard.....'.......bull crap.!
In an entire career (since high school) that has been under the microscope, that's the ONE thing he did wrong. He's really the first athlete to dominate the internet/social media generation and has handled it insanely well.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:31 PM   #1421
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Basketball's kinda funny in the sense that its the only sport that pools every single player into the "greatest ever" conversation (well maybe hockey does too). In football, you can talk about greatest QB, WR, RB...baseball, greatest pitcher/hitter. But in basketball you rarely see greatest big/greatest little. Comparing Jordan to Russell/Chamberlain (who i've never seen play, but assume were dominant by looking at numbers) is a little silly considering their games couldnt be more different.
yea and so hard to do with basketball with what you said and with how different the game is with addition of the 3 and the rules in general.

Who knows how many points Jerry West has if there's 3's and stuff like that.


And trying to judge guards to centers is just pointless. It's better to just say I think so and so is the best of all time and then name the best at the other spots. Like how you mentioned a all time starting 5...

I'll take Magic , Jordan , Bird , Duncan and Russell and you can have the field hehehe....
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:33 PM   #1422
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And with 4's playing center like Duncan and Garnett and others it makes this even harder ...
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:48 PM   #1423
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yea and so hard to do with basketball with what you said and with how different the game is with addition of the 3 and the rules in general.

Who knows how many points Jerry West has if there's 3's and stuff like that.


And trying to judge guards to centers is just pointless. It's better to just say I think so and so is the best of all time and then name the best at the other spots. Like how you mentioned a all time starting 5...

I'll take Magic , Jordan , Bird , Duncan and Russell and you can have the field hehehe....
I think my top five are: Jordan, Magic, LeBron, Russell, Chamberlain. I've never watched the latter two play, but Russell's championships speak for themselves and Chamberlain literally had rules changed because of his dominance. Not to mention, one year he felt like leading the league in assists so he did it.

Duncan is awesome, but im not sure his place. Him and Shaq are on pretty even plane for me.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:49 PM   #1424
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yea and so hard to do with basketball with what you said and with how different the game is with addition of the 3 and the rules in general.

Who knows how many points Jerry West has if there's 3's and stuff like that.


And trying to judge guards to centers is just pointless. It's better to just say I think so and so is the best of all time and then name the best at the other spots. Like how you mentioned a all time starting 5...

I'll take Magic , Jordan , Bird , Duncan and Russell and you can have the field hehehe....
oh i misunderstood...starting five. eh, ill stick with what i gave. Power Forward/Center...eh, theyre all bigs.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:51 PM   #1425
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Ugh, so, again, he HAS to be Jordan or bust? He's in the top five. And he's had plenty of moments where he didn't "shrink." Hell, ALL LAST SERIES he didn't. Need more iconic games? 48 special. Game 6 in Boston last year.

And I know people love to remember that Jordan was great every single minute of his life, but of course that's silly. Jordan was an assassin, he's the best. But LeBron is only 28 (by the way, Jordan didnt win his first championship till then) and he's already a top five player ever in my opinion.

He doesn't have to be "Jordan." He's LeBron. And lets save this dumb "Who's better?" argument till his career's over.
The guy makes decisions that reduce accountability when provided the opportunity to shrink from the moment. When he has no other choice he'll take the shot, but otherwise he's looking to pass.

He also up until last year had an inconsistent mastery of back-to-basket moves and outside jumpers, which made him a one trick pony that was easier to neutralize in late game situations; forcing a teammate to take a three.

Lebron teams are almost always built with a stretch four because he is a ball dominant forward who runs isos on the top of the key with a problematic inside shot or outside pass dilemma that he forces onto the opposing defense, spacing the 4 out is necessary for this style to work.

The phenomenons above causes his drives to create plays but chews up a lot of shot clock time to create those plays which often turns into an outside jumpshot for a teammate. His effect on the game reflects that of a bigman even though he is a perimeter player. The end result is that you'll notice almost every bigman who has ever played with Lebron has posted less impressive statistics than with him, this is not true of other superstar perimeter players(even though Lebron posts more assists, he actually hurts the bigman he plays with).

But his biggest problem by far is that while he dominates the ball like a 2 guard... in key momentum situations where a real guard with a strong outside and back to basket game (and the determination) can get a bucket to hold off a run; he simply passes. Tonight, that play was when the heat were up by 2 points and Lebron made multiple passes, one of which was a turnover that lead to a Tony Parker layup on the other end. He also passed up an open 3 that could've put the heat up by 4 earlier in the game. Finally, he had a inside shot at the hoop against a back-tracking duncan and passed it up for their power forward to take a 3point shot.

The combination of his ball domination style and his lack of assertiveness on scoring the basketball (a problem that Magic Johnson did not have).. when momentum shifts require a bucket from his team; causes there to be a serious offensive rhythm breakdown in many key pressure situations. If you actually sat down play by play and looked at the key momentum changing plays of each game you'll notice that Lebron plays hot-potato with the basketball in moments where he needs to have the stones to shoot the damn basketball.

The heat are a better team with Wade taking point in the 4th quarter for this reason.

As for top 5... you're the one who is disrespecting great players if you think Lebron is top 5.

MJ, Larry, Magic & Kobe are all dominating back court players with 5 rings or more.

Jabbar & Russell both have more exemplary careers as winners.

Wilt was more dominant both physically and statistically than Lebron could ever be. Shaq just as well, and with 3 more rings.

Duncan has the more distinguished career right now and has 5 rings going on six if he beats Lebron this series.

Lebron after winning 1 tittle belongs AT BEST - in the conversation with Hakeem and the big O as guys who won one or two titles and had many dominant regular season runs; and I'm not sure how many people who really appreciate Oscar and Hakeem could rank Lebron ahead of either of them.

Lebron James won his only championship by joining Wade and Bosh at the peak of their careers to try and create a superteam, something no other top player had done in the prime of their career. As a result unless Lebron separates himself from Hakeen and Oscar through championships, I'm not sure he ever makes it into the top 10.

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