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Old 05-05-2005, 02:01 PM   #1
Bronco_Beerslug
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Default Ford, General Motors Debt Cut To Junk Status

American auto makers better open their eyes get out some new products (hybrids, ethanol, battery powered, etc...) in a hurry.
This along with Greenspan's statements today are not very encouraging.

-----------------------------------------------------


By Dan Wilchins

NEW YORK (Reuters) - In a one-two punch for financial markets, Standard & Poor's cut General Motors Corp.'s and Ford Motor Co.'s debt ratings to junk status on Thursday, citing brutal global competition and flagging sales of the automakers' most profitable vehicles.
ADVERTISEMENT

The downgrades, which total about $290 billion and are the largest cuts to junk in a single day, jolted financial markets. Stocks and the dollar weakened. Safe-haven Treasury debt prices rose. The broad junk bond market, which by some measures will expand about 15 percent in short order, dropped.

Burdened by junk ratings, the automakers have fewer avenues for raising funds. Their shares extended their losses and their bonds fell by about 5 cents on the dollar as investors braced for investment grade portfolio managers to sell auto debt.

The companies are facing difficult times and cuts to junk were expected later this year, but investors were surprised that S&P took action so soon.

GM and Ford are struggling with high health-care, pension and materials costs, which, combined with brutal competition from overseas companies have winnowed their market share.

The companies have ample cash for at least the next several years. The two other major ratings agencies still rate Ford and GM at investment-grade status, but further cuts for the companies are possible, analysts said.

"Potentially we've seen one or two shoes drop now, but it might be a four- or five-legged thing with more shoes to drop," said Jon Brorson, managing director of growth equities at Neuberger Berman in Chicago.

Investors had become more hopeful for dramatic changes at GM on Wednesday after billionaire Kirk Kerkorian, known for being an activist investor, said he was more than doubling his stake in the company to about 9 percent.

GM and Ford reported lower April U.S. vehicle sales on Tuesday, even as
Toyota Motor Corp.'s U.S. sales rose 21 percent from last year for its best month ever.

Crucially, GM and Ford's sports utility vehicle and truck sales fell. These vehicles have provided most of their auto-related profits since the late 1990s, but are less attractive as gas prices rise.

Standard & Poor's cut GM and General Motors Acceptance Corp.'s long-term credit ratings by two notches to "BB," the second-highest junk rating. The outlook on the new rating is negative, signaling that another downgrade in the next 24 months is possible.

The agency also cut Ford and Ford Motor Credit Co.'s long-term credit ratings by one notch to "BB-plus," the highest junk rating, from "BBB-minus." The outlook on the new rating is also negative.

A GM spokesman said in a statement that the company was disappointed with the downgrades, but that it has ample cash and liquidity to fund its business for the foreseeable future.

Ford Chief Financial Officer Don Leclair said in a statement the company disagreed with S&P's action. "We're disappointed that it discounts our considerable liquidity and our access to diverse funding sources, as well as the recent successes of our new products."

GM BONDS SPEED LOWER

S&P's downgrades of GM and Ford may force many investment-grade investors to sell holdings to the much smaller group of portfolio managers eligible to hold junk debt.

Junk, or speculative grade status, signals that a company is more likely to default on its debt.

Between them, the two auto giants have some $453 billion of debt outstanding, including some $290 billion of unsecured corporate bonds that will become junk after the cuts.

General Motors Corp.'s bonds due 2033 with an 8.75 percent coupon fell to about 74 cents on the dollar from about 79 cents before the news, traders said. Yields on other GM debt relative to Treasuries rose by about 50 to 60 basis points.

A basis point is 0.01 percentage point.

The rising gap between GM and Treasury yields is a sign investors see more risk in holding the automaker's debt.

Yield spreads on Ford Motor Credit's 7 percent notes due 2013 widened by about 60 basis points to 460 basis more than Treasuries, a trader said. Ford Credit is Ford's finance arm. (Additional reporting by Dean Aubin in New York and Mike Ellis in Detroit)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...tos_gm_junk_dc
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:09 PM   #2
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Talk about some of the worst run companies in the world....Toyota will be #1 in the world in less than 5 years.
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:14 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco
Talk about some of the worst run companies in the world....Toyota will be #1 in the world in less than 5 years.
Unfortunately I have to agree, mostly everyone will be driving foreign if things do not change for the better in the near future.
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:14 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco
Talk about some of the worst run companies in the world....Toyota will be #1 in the world in less than 5 years.
Car companies have NOTHING on airlines.

The entire industry is poorly run.

I wish I had as much help from the government as they have when I screw up my life.
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:17 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by ND Bronco Fan
Unfortunately I have to agree, mostly everyone will be driving foreign if things do not change for the better in the near future.
It's not all that bad. Most "foreign" cars (at least Toyotas) are assembled in U.S. factories now, while most "domestic" cars are being assembled in factories in Mexico or elsewhere outside the States. It's almost better for the U.S. economy if the "foreign" automakers thrive.
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:21 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by delany
Car companies have NOTHING on airlines.

The entire industry is poorly run.

I wish I had as much help from the government as they have when I screw up my life.

The Government?...You mean...you and me...and every other tax payer.
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:21 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco
It's not all that bad. Most "foreign" cars (at least Toyotas) are assembled in U.S. factories now, while most "domestic" cars are being assembled in factories in Mexico or elsewhere outside the States. It's almost better for the U.S. economy if the "foreign" automakers thrive.
Well, it really is that bad. We're talking about 100s of thousands of good paying jobs at stake. And foreign made vehicles are basically that, employing thousands overseas making all the components (even though some are assembled here).
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:25 PM   #8
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I sold my Ford. It was my fav stock. Owned it for .... ten years at least. Sad day.

GM Ford and, I think, Chrys too, have about 1500 per vehicle more going in benefits than do the Japanese ... mainly because of older workers on defined pension benefit plans. Ford took three big hits too. The Taurus mis design. It was the leading sedan seller in the US before that. The explorer debacle. Ironically the new explorer is supposed to be safe, but the thing's huge. And the current management has to accept the blame for the fact that the one vehicle they haven't redesigned is the Ranger, and Toyota and even Dodge have very nice downsized PU's out there. And their little car ... the fiesta or whatever it is didn't get good crash tests.
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:28 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco
The Government?...You mean...you and me...and every other tax payer.
exactly.

Being held hostage by an NFL owner by having to build him a stadium and pay obsene prices for BEER...is nothing compared to having to bail out companies and an entire industry that makes ENRON look well managed.
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:34 PM   #10
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the irony is that the Ford currently the ceo was a gore supporter cause he wanted more mpg incentive/regs.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:27 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug View Post
American auto makers better open their eyes get out some new products (hybrids, ethanol, battery powered, etc...) in a hurry.
This along with Greenspan's statements today are not very encouraging.

-----------------------------------------------------


By Dan Wilchins

NEW YORK (Reuters) - In a one-two punch for financial markets, Standard & Poor's cut General Motors Corp.'s and Ford Motor Co.'s debt ratings to junk status on Thursday, citing brutal global competition and flagging sales of the automakers' most profitable vehicles.
ADVERTISEMENT

The downgrades, which total about $290 billion and are the largest cuts to junk in a single day, jolted financial markets. Stocks and the dollar weakened. Safe-haven Treasury debt prices rose. The broad junk bond market, which by some measures will expand about 15 percent in short order, dropped.

Burdened by junk ratings, the automakers have fewer avenues for raising funds. Their shares extended their losses and their bonds fell by about 5 cents on the dollar as investors braced for investment grade portfolio managers to sell auto debt.

The companies are facing difficult times and cuts to junk were expected later this year, but investors were surprised that S&P took action so soon.

GM and Ford are struggling with high health-care, pension and materials costs, which, combined with brutal competition from overseas companies have winnowed their market share.

The companies have ample cash for at least the next several years. The two other major ratings agencies still rate Ford and GM at investment-grade status, but further cuts for the companies are possible, analysts said.

"Potentially we've seen one or two shoes drop now, but it might be a four- or five-legged thing with more shoes to drop," said Jon Brorson, managing director of growth equities at Neuberger Berman in Chicago.

Investors had become more hopeful for dramatic changes at GM on Wednesday after billionaire Kirk Kerkorian, known for being an activist investor, said he was more than doubling his stake in the company to about 9 percent.

GM and Ford reported lower April U.S. vehicle sales on Tuesday, even as
Toyota Motor Corp.'s U.S. sales rose 21 percent from last year for its best month ever.

Crucially, GM and Ford's sports utility vehicle and truck sales fell. These vehicles have provided most of their auto-related profits since the late 1990s, but are less attractive as gas prices rise.

Standard & Poor's cut GM and General Motors Acceptance Corp.'s long-term credit ratings by two notches to "BB," the second-highest junk rating. The outlook on the new rating is negative, signaling that another downgrade in the next 24 months is possible.

The agency also cut Ford and Ford Motor Credit Co.'s long-term credit ratings by one notch to "BB-plus," the highest junk rating, from "BBB-minus." The outlook on the new rating is also negative.

A GM spokesman said in a statement that the company was disappointed with the downgrades, but that it has ample cash and liquidity to fund its business for the foreseeable future.

Ford Chief Financial Officer Don Leclair said in a statement the company disagreed with S&P's action. "We're disappointed that it discounts our considerable liquidity and our access to diverse funding sources, as well as the recent successes of our new products."

GM BONDS SPEED LOWER

S&P's downgrades of GM and Ford may force many investment-grade investors to sell holdings to the much smaller group of portfolio managers eligible to hold junk debt.

Junk, or speculative grade status, signals that a company is more likely to default on its debt.

Between them, the two auto giants have some $453 billion of debt outstanding, including some $290 billion of unsecured corporate bonds that will become junk after the cuts.

General Motors Corp.'s bonds due 2033 with an 8.75 percent coupon fell to about 74 cents on the dollar from about 79 cents before the news, traders said. Yields on other GM debt relative to Treasuries rose by about 50 to 60 basis points.

A basis point is 0.01 percentage point.

The rising gap between GM and Treasury yields is a sign investors see more risk in holding the automaker's debt.

Yield spreads on Ford Motor Credit's 7 percent notes due 2013 widened by about 60 basis points to 460 basis more than Treasuries, a trader said. Ford Credit is Ford's finance arm. (Additional reporting by Dean Aubin in New York and Mike Ellis in Detroit)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...tos_gm_junk_dc
I wonder who is going to bail out GM the next time?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoo...kruptcy-again/
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:07 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by delany View Post
exactly.

Being held hostage by an NFL owner by having to build him a stadium and pay obsene prices for BEER...is nothing compared to having to bail out companies and an entire industry that makes ENRON look well managed.

That's it......piss poor management. I have been through multiple bankruptcies and paycuts galore with two airlines, just don't blame the workers. Lot more to it than that.

Unless you all want to work for 90 cents an hour I don't know what to tell you other than management never shoulders ANY OF THE BLAME (LONESTAR), IT'S always labor fault even if they have taken multiple pay cuts already.


Sales are up for American automakers, I don't really see an issue in the forseable future.....we shall see.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:15 AM   #13
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Some of it is the power of the unions, and some of it just the simple fact that American automakers do not have the product to compete. And this isn't new, either. American carmakers have been behind the ball for almost thirty years now.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:50 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco View Post
Talk about some of the worst run companies in the world....Toyota will be #1 in the world in less than 5 years.
You do realize that the major reason why Toyota is so competitive is because they're a government subsidized entity, right? The Japanese gov't. lets them operate at a net loss to create jobs and be more competitive than they really are.

So ask yourself how GM and Ford are supposed to run a business model that lets them make a profit in a sector where their primary competitor is free to just bleed money.

Toyota is basically a socialist endeavor by the Japanese gov't. to create a global power for Japan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco View Post
It's not all that bad. Most "foreign" cars (at least Toyotas) are assembled in U.S. factories now, while most "domestic" cars are being assembled in factories in Mexico or elsewhere outside the States. It's almost better for the U.S. economy if the "foreign" automakers thrive.
Toyotas are constructed in right to work states where high school drop outs get paid $11 an hour to put together your car.

If you pay attention as to where your domestic car came from you can buy one made here in the U.S.A. by someone getting paid a legitimate wage who has gone through extensive training and know what he's doing.

My car was built in Flint, Michigan by guys who can afford to buy the same car as me. I'm rather happy about that fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bendog View Post
And the current management has to accept the blame for the fact that the one vehicle they haven't redesigned is the Ranger, and Toyota and even Dodge have very nice downsized PU's out there.
They have overhauled the Ranger, it's ****ing sweet. It's also only available in South America and Europe because Ford is concerned about it "cannibalizing" F-150 sales. Its a damn shame. He's a photo:






They even sell it as a turbo diesel that gets fantastic mileage with good hauling power.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:47 AM   #15
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You do realize that the major reason why Toyota is so competitive is because they're a government subsidized entity, right?
I'd say "not making a piece of crap" is higher on the "major reason" list.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:29 AM   #16
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I really like that Ford Ranger. I've always hated GM cars, other than some of the classics they made in the 50s and early 60s. I could dig having a '61 Corvette, for instance. But I've always been a Ford guy. As far as the bailout goes, I think the president was faced with a Hobson's choice. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:58 AM   #17
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Id rather buy a Toyota, but I like my Honda and Hyundai currently
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:19 AM   #18
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You do realize that the major reason why Toyota is so competitive is because they're a government subsidized entity, right? The Japanese gov't. lets them operate at a net loss to create jobs and be more competitive than they really are.

So ask yourself how GM and Ford are supposed to run a business model that lets them make a profit in a sector where their primary competitor is free to just bleed money.

Toyota is basically a socialist endeavor by the Japanese gov't. to create a global power for Japan.

GM and Ford haven't been subsidized? In any event, competing to the death on margins is a loser battle anyways, as Toyota can tell you right now. Toyota is declining in value, they can no longer afford both low prices and high quality materials and ownership costs are going up, with European car companies beating them out at what was their trademark. They will lose business and as you pointed out, they weren't really making themselves rich even before this. GM and Ford shouldn't compete with Toyota to be the lowest profit car company, they should find ways to compete in quality or branding or appeals to patriotism or whatever. If they can't then they shouldn't be in business.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:22 AM   #19
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Anyway, like Krugman points out, people are not going to spend during a recession. They'll keep the car they have and make do.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:26 AM   #20
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Id rather buy a Toyota, but I like my Honda and Hyundai currently
Ludo, you are too young to know this but there was a time when you would never mention that you own a Hyundai. They have come a long ways since those days of the Excel.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:33 AM   #21
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GM and Ford are struggling with high health-care, pension and materials costs, which, combined with brutal competition from overseas companies have winnowed their market share.
Aaannd I stopped reading right there. It's amazing, simply freaking amazing that health care is such a culprit to this sagging economy.

Why is the cost rising? Two reasons--inflation (this is huge but the fed just keeps printing money and the Obama defenders are simply ignorant and wrong but they will defend BO to the death, right Paul-****-for-brains-Krugman?) and the fact that the Health Insurance lobby is dictating the pricing.

Why, because the Health Insurance Lobby is a friggen cartel and they are in bed--IN BED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!

Thanks for nothing congress.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:37 AM   #22
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Anyway, like Krugman points out, people are not going to spend during a recession. They'll keep the car they have and make do.
Krugman has some good points but he completely overlooks inflation. The shrinking value of the dollar also reeks havoc on people buying stuff, yah know?
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:59 AM   #23
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Aaannd I stopped reading right there. It's amazing, simply freaking amazing that health care is such a culprit to this sagging economy.

Why is the cost rising? Two reasons--inflation (this is huge but the fed just keeps printing money and the Obama defenders are simply ignorant and wrong but they will defend BO to the death, right Paul-****-for-brains-Krugman?) and the fact that the Health Insurance lobby is dictating the pricing.

Why, because the Health Insurance Lobby is a friggen cartel and they are in bed--IN BED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!

Thanks for nothing congress.
Krugman bases his theories on available evidence not on ideological philosophy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/22/op...ess.html?_r=1&

Having a massive insurance industry profiting from its middle man position between patient and doctor will raise prices endlessly. Until we realize that medicine is not widgets, and does not fit into the profit matrix, our economy will continue to suffer under this burden. Imagine what would happen to this economy if businesses were suddenly off the hook for health care costs?
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:06 AM   #24
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Krugman bases his theories on available evidence not on ideological philosophy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/22/op...ess.html?_r=1&

Having a massive insurance industry profiting from its middle man position between patient and doctor will raise prices endlessly. Until we realize that medicine is not widgets, and does not fit into the profit matrix, our economy will continue to suffer under this burden. Imagine what would happen to this economy if businesses were suddenly off the hook for health care costs?
Let's be honest Roh, this is stuff you, me and others have debated ad nausium on this message board. Krugman is not saying anything that I have not already stated. The reason for the rising cost of health care is directly due to the Health Insurance lobby. Why BO tried to federalize a system that is corrupted to begin with does not make sense (this is where I say the Health Insurance Lobby controls DC).

Break up the cartel. Let people buy health insurance across state lines. That is, increase the pool of people paying into the system and it will immediately bring down the cost for everyone involved.

Control inflation too as this will help the buying power of the middle class. This aint' rocket science and you don't need Krugman to tell you this stuff.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:56 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
Krugman bases his theories on available evidence not on ideological philosophy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/22/op...ess.html?_r=1&

Having a massive insurance industry profiting from its middle man position between patient and doctor will raise prices endlessly. Until we realize that medicine is not widgets, and does not fit into the profit matrix, our economy will continue to suffer under this burden. Imagine what would happen to this economy if businesses were suddenly off the hook for health care costs?
Everything is a choice between what you want and can afford. The real problem is people are not paying their own bill so they ask for everything and want to pay nothing.

If everybody had to pay 1% up front health care would get better.
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