QB Mount Rushmore

[errand]

Otto Graham:
Ten title games in ten years winning seven of them and compiling a career 83.4 winning percentage.

He also played one season of pro basketball....and won a championship in his solitary season as well....

[cutthemdown]

Originally Posted by extralife

Brady is tough as ****. Maybe he misses a few more games, maybe he doesn't, you can't really say. The rules protect QBs much better these days, but don't forget that said protection was enacted and necessitated by the sheer athletic ability of defenders in today's game.

If you want to argue that Manning and Brady wouldn't have the same stats they do now if they had played in a different era, you won't find me disagreeing. But given that Manning is going to retire as number one or number two all time in every significant passing category and Brady won't be that far behind despite playing in a conservative offense for the first half of his career, well, a little statistical deflation wouldn't kill them. And winning is winning regardless of the era--in that department, Brady's five super bowl appearances are tied with you-know-who for the most all time. Brady has also succeeded in two entire different offensive systems, playing entirely different games. His winning percentage is the best in NFL history for a QB with anything near his games played (granted, Otto Graham has better numbers in this department, his just didn't come entirely in the NFL).

And if today's QBs would find it harder to play in a league that didn't protect them as much, yesterday's QBs would find it difficult to operate with the precision, responsibility, knowledge, and accuracy of Peyton Manning and his acolytes. Manning's command of the game is simply on a different level, he's the most distinctive QB to ever play the game. Watching Manning play the game is simply different from watching anyone else play the game. If I trust what I've read, the analog here is basically Unitas and no one else.

Mannning I agree on but i really think brady would have struggled being hit like the old qbs used to. Elway would take 6-7 hits after the throw a game that would be flags nowdays.

Also not sure going up against Larwence Taylors, Howie Longs, Greg Townsends, D. Thomas, Neil Smiths, Atwaters, Lotts etc was any easier then going against defense nowdays. IMO they were much more vicious 15 yrs ago.

Whtaever though one point stands for sure. That todays stats skewed compared to qbs like Jim Kelly and Dan Marino, Elway, Montana etc etc. Montana would be like Drew Brees in todays game. You simple wouldn't get to touch him much.

[gunns]

Originally Posted by errand

Otto Graham:
Ten title games in ten years winning seven of them and compiling a career 83.4 winning percentage.

He also played one season of pro basketball....and won a championship in his solitary season as well....

Agreed, great athlete.

[Irish Stout]

I voted Brady over Manning, as much as I hated to. The reason why is that Brady, right now has better stats in three of the most important categories - Wins, Playoff Wins and Superbowl Wins. By the end of the season, I think that Manning will have a belt full of new records, which will increase his stature in the NFL QB benchmark world. However, until he wins a few more playoff games and another Superbowl, its hard for me to rank him over Brady in the modern QB era.

As for the "Brady wouldn't have made it as a QB in earlier years" argument... who is to say? With the ever changing rules of the NFL its just too hard to theoretically compare one QB to another of a different generation. A lot of the rules today do help the QB, but some rules, like the old force out rule, could be considered an advantage to some of the older QBs. You have to take the man in his context of when he played, how he played, what he did, and what he accomplished with what he had.

For the best to accomplish what they did with what they had, its hard not to argue Elway. Otto Graham did a ton with what he had on the Browns. Bart Starr and Montana were surrounded by greatness, but accomplished their own feats with convincing style.

One of my favorite articles of all time is the one where it compares Elway to Montana and ranks Elway as the better QB for having done so much with such bad teams.

Also - Unitas.

[orinjkrush]

Originally Posted by menonite

Johnny Unitas?

yep

sammy baugh
unitas
staubach
montana
manning

[Lestat]

Unitas,Elway,Montana & Manning.
Brady,Marino,Graham and Baugh are definitely up there as well.

[maven]

Brady>Manning

5 SB's versus 2

[Lestat]

Originally Posted by maven

Brady>Manning

5 SB's versus 2

in that case it's Graham,Montana & Bradshaw as the top QB's ever.

[maven]

Originally Posted by Lestat

in that case it's Graham,Montana & Bradshaw as the top QB's ever.

Nope. Brady is definitely greater than Manning.

[Lestat]

Originally Posted by maven

Nope. Brady is definitely greater than Manning.

naw, Manning has 4 NFL MVP's, a super bowl MVP, fastest to 50,000 yards, fastest to 400 TD's, fastest to 4,000 completions.
and no QB has ever been as good as Manning at audibling, controlling the offense and manipulating the defense.

[~Crash~]

Otto Graham --- 10 consecutive championship games winning 7.


How the hell do you leave that out..

[Lestat]

Originally Posted by ~Crash~

Otto Graham --- 10 consecutive championship games winning 7.


How the hell do you leave that out..

the same way you don't say Bill Russell is the best NBA player ever because he won 11 titles.

[extralife]

Originally Posted by Lestat

the same way you don't say Bill Russell is the best NBA player ever because he won 11 titles.

everyone puts Bill Russell in the top five

[NUB]

When I think Rushmore I think old-school, groundbreaking types.

Baugh, Graham, Starr, Unitas.

[socalorado]

Unitas needs to be on the list

Unitas
Elway
Baugh
Montana
Manning

Marino never won jack squat.
Favre only won with really good teams.
Young deserves honorable mention, but never did enough to be on the mountian.
Brady. He might deserve to be there. Maybe chisel him on in a few years. Not yet.

Baugh just fricken won. He changed the game, and Unitas brought the game into the modern era. Both were awesome under pressure, and had incredible work ethics.
They were masters of their positions, and revolutionized the game.
Lets face it, Montana had dynasty teams, but when they were faltering, he was jut clutch. He did have to go against dynasties in his own right in Dallas and NyGiants, and pulled out some of the most incredible victories of all time. The guy was just $$.
Elway. The master. No one did it better, and no one elevated himself and his sub-par teams to a higher level year in and year out. No one pulled out more wins in clutch time, i dont care what the records say. Elway did it in the most crucial and critical times when it was all on the line and his story book ending puts him on the mountian top.

“So far in Elway’s career, his offensive linemen and wide receivers have been voted to the Pro Bowl a combined seven times. In Dan Marino’s 15 seasons, Miami Dolphins offensive linemen and wide receivers have been selected to the Pro Bowl 30 times. … Though usually surrounded by a human rummage sale, Elway has won more games as a starter than any other quarterback in NFL history at the time of this writing. (138). It’s the equivalent of carving Mount Rushmore with a spoon or composing Beethoven’s Ninth on a kazoo. But Elway’s career has been about more than just winning. It has been about escaping defeat a half page from the end of the novel, leaping over pits of fire with the microdot hidden in his cigarette lighter. On first down Elway was ‘pretty average,’ his Stanford coach Paul Wiggin once said. But when the elementary school kids are being held hostage and the detonator reads 00:03, who would you rather have clipping the wires than Elway? He may be the only quarterback in history who could stand on his own two-yard line, trailing by five with less than two minutes to play, no timeouts left, windchill –5, and cause the opposing coach to mutter, ‘We’re in trouble.’” --Rick Reilly, Sports Illustrated, qtd. in Austin Murphy’s The Super Bowl: Sports Greatest Championship

[fwf]

Originally Posted by maven

Brady>Manning

5 SB's versus 2

WRONG.
Peyton 4 Mvp awards to Bradys 2.

Id like to see how many Peyton would have one if the Colts cheated like the Pats did all those years.

IMO these guys are pretty equal.. If youre going to put Brady or leave him off then you should do the same for Peyton.

[mwill07]

Originally Posted by ~Crash~

Otto Graham --- 10 consecutive championship games winning 7.


How the hell do you leave that out..

ugh. Graham was the beneficiary of Paul Brown being leaps and bounds ahead of the other AAFC and NFL coaches in terms of college scouting, mostly on the basis of his college coaching days... in addition to Brown being the archetype of what we think coaches should do.

When the AAFC was founded, they needed to compete with the NFL. There was no draft, it was a free-agency signing bonanza, mostly to be able to tear players away from the NFL. The early Browns were stocked with future HoF'ers, including Graham.

imagine today's most innovative coach being able to compile all of the top college recruits, letting them play against mediocre competition (and winning 4 straight championships in the "minor league") before entering the NFL. That's what happened.

i'm not saying Graham isn't good or he doesn't deserve credit; let's just put his accomplishments into perspective.

[mwill07]

Elway Unitas Baugh Staubach

If we have room for a 5th, Montana.

[Mountain Bronco]

Elway, Montana, Unitas, Brady

Manning would be 5 and can pass Brady with another SB win, but stats alone don't get it done IMO which is why he is short as is Marino. Great leaders get it done even with less and Marino didn't.

I hate Brady, but the dude doesn't get enough respect with 5 AFC Championships and 3 rings.

[bronco militia]

these are the QB's I've seen that make it look so easy

Elway, Montana, Young, Manning, Favre, Brady and Marino.

[Kaylore]

Unitas!