The Real Death Panels

[Rohirrim]

So let’s be brutally honest here. The Romney-Ryan position on health care is that many millions of Americans must be denied health insurance, and millions more deprived of the security Medicare now provides, in order to save money. At the same time, of course, Mr. Romney and Mr. Ryan are proposing trillions of dollars in tax cuts for the wealthy. So a literal description of their plan is that they want to expose many Americans to financial insecurity, and let some of them die, so that a handful of already wealthy people can have a higher after-tax income.

It’s not a pretty picture — and you can see why Mr. Romney chooses not to see it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/op...logy.html?_r=0

[barryr]

Krugman Thinks raising taxes creates jobs. Yep, he's a genius. Has he ever written about Obama's "panels" that will decide who and what gets covered? Doubtful, at least with any honesty.

[Rohirrim]

My take has always been that we need single payer, nationalized health care in this country. Eventually, we will have it. Why? Because the beast of a system we are trying to prop up now is unsustainable. The simplest cost profile shows that. You can't wedge a for-profit insurance industry between doctors and patients and hope to have a sustainable system, unless you live in Wonderland. The costs of this beast will never stop rising, even until they reach a point where the majority can't afford it.

As far as the OP goes, Krugman is simply pointing out that the Romney/Ryan plan will leave 45 million Americans uninsured and directly lead to higher mortality rates.

It's arithmetic.

[Blart]

Originally Posted by barryr

Krugman Thinks raising taxes creates jobs.

Yeah, what does a nobel prize winning economist know about economics? Nothin, that's what! *turns on Glenn Beck*

BTW: Norway has a 44% tax rate and only 3% unemployment. Please explain.

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

[I]So let’s be brutally honest here. The Romney-Ryan position on health care is that many millions of Americans must be denied health insurance, and millions more deprived of the security Medicare now provides, in order to save money.

Completely false. Government Medicare spending is the primary reason that healthcare costs continue to skyrocket. The Romney/Ryan plan begins to address and cap Medicare taxpayer liability. Giving more support to the poor, and less support to the wealthy.

Taking government and insurance companies out of the patient/doctor relationship is the cheapest, and most efficient way to deliver healthcare. That is the solution for the primary care market. Catastrophic healthcare at the hospital level can be solved by limiting taxpayer liability (Romney/Ryan), and regulating costs.

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

My take has always been that we need single payer, nationalized health care in this country. Eventually, we will have it.

Completely false. Why? Because European single payer is not working. It is bankrupting Europe, because costs rise faster than inflation. No one can be taxed enough to pay for it. Meanwhile, patients wait months for simple procedures.

[barryr]

Originally Posted by Blart

Yeah, what does a nobel prize winning economist know about economics? Nothin, that's what! *turns on Glenn Beck*

BTW: Norway has a 44% tax rate and only 3% unemployment. Please explain.

Nobel Peace Prize? Please. Anybody anti-capitalism and anti-Jew already has a nomination. Norway is the about the size of New Mexico, so comparing that to the U.S. is plain dumb.

[manchambo]

Originally Posted by barryr

Nobel Peace Prize? Please. Anybody anti-capitalism and anti-Jew already has a nomination. Norway is the about the size of New Mexico, so comparing that to the U.S. is plain dumb.

Not the peace prize for Christ sake, the economics prize. He won the Nobel prize in economics. He has actual,you know, knowledge and expertise in economics. But why the **** would we listen to him when barryr is here to explain the economy for us?

This would be funny if about half of Americans didn't think the same way. Our country is often run by people who picked up their discredited economic theories on the back of cereal boxes.

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by manchambo

Not the peace prize for Christ sake, the economics prize. He won the Nobel prize in economics. He has actual,you know, knowledge and expertise in economics. But why the **** would we listen to him when barryr is here to explain the economy for us?

You beat me to it. barryr doesn't appear to know much of anything, but we're supposed to take him seriously on economics over Krugman. The guy who thinks Krugman won the Nobel Peace Prize. Good stuff.

[pricejj]

Krugman is a fool.

Future generations will look on Obama and Krugman with disdain as they break their backs to pay off the debt that these henchmen have created, and continue to promote... as our own generation watches the value of the dollar erode to nothing due to Keynesian deficit spending policies.

[Blart]

this thread went has turned out to be pretty great

Originally Posted by pricejj

Krugman is a fool.

Future generations will look on Obama and Krugman with disdain as they break their backs to pay off the debt that these henchmen have created, and continue to promote... as our own generation watches the value of the dollar erode to nothing due to Keynesian deficit spending policies.

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by Blart

this thread went has turned out to be pretty great

It's just more false Socialist/Communist garbage from Krugman.

The good part is, most people are beginning to wake-up and realize just how destructive the policies that Krugman promotes, are.

When will you wake-up?

[Blart]

Originally Posted by pricejj

It's just more false Socialist/Communist garbage from Krugman.

The good part is, most people are beginning to wake-up and realize just how destructive the policies that Krugman promotes, are.

When will you wake-up?

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by pricejj

Krugman is a fool.

Future generations will look on Obama and Krugman with disdain as they break their backs to pay off the debt that these henchmen have created...

This guy blaming Obama and Krugman for "the debt", and then calling somebody else a fool. The level of ignorance and epistemic closure is just astounding.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by pricejj

It's just more false Socialist/Communist garbage from Krugman.

The good part is, most people are beginning to wake-up and realize just how destructive the policies that Krugman promotes, are.

When will you wake-up?

Yeah. 'Cause supply side is working so well.

Progressivism made America stronger, and richer, than any economic model we've ever used. Supply side has done nothing but make the already rich, uber-rich and the country weaker. Now we are in debt to China. That is the effect of supply side and deregulation.

[Rohirrim]

Speaking of basic economics, here's a little fundamental we can all contemplate: Medicine isn't widgets.

Let's say, just for yucks, that such a thing as the "invisible hand" existed and you created such a thing as a free market where that mechanism could freely operate. What makes you think that such a system would make health care costs affordable? There's nothing in laissez faire economics that says that any product has to be affordable. Simply that it's price will stabilize as the market determines it. Yachts will never be affordable, even if their prices became competitive in their market.

If those who provide medicine and health care are profiting comfortably from providing products and services to 2/3rds of the population, why should they care about the third that's left out because they can't afford it? Should they lower their prices? The free marketeer says no. The Libertarian says, "**** no!" There you have it.

Medicine isn't widgets.

Is that basic enough for ya?

[Pony Boy]

A top Democrat strategist and donor Steven Rattner who served as President Obama’s lead auto-industry adviser recently conceded that the rationing of heath services under Obamacare is “inevitable.”

Last month, Rattner penned an opinion piece in the New York Times titled “Beyond Obamacare” in which he proclaimed “We need death panels” and argued rationing must be instructed to sustain Obama’s health-care plan. His comments have been virtually ignored by traditional media as the president campaigns for a second term.

Rattner lamented how Obama’s Affordable Care Act “regrettably includes severe restrictions on any reduction in Medicare services or increase in fees to beneficiaries.”

Rattner said the numbers don’t add up unless Obamacare utilizes rationing.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/10/obama-adv...-death-panels/

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Speaking of basic economics, here's a little fundamental we can all contemplate: Medicine isn't widgets.

Let's say, just for yucks, that such a thing as the "invisible hand" existed and you created such a thing as a free market where that mechanism could freely operate. What makes you think that such a system would make health care costs affordable? There's nothing in laissez faire economics that says that any product has to be affordable. Simply that it's price will stabilize as the market determines it. Yachts will never be affordable, even if their prices became competitive in their market.

If those who provide medicine and health care are profiting comfortably from providing products and services to 2/3rds of the population, why should they care about the third that's left out because they can't afford it? Should they lower their prices? The free marketeer says no. The Libertarian says, "**** no!" There you have it.

Medicine isn't widgets.

Is that basic enough for ya?

20 to 30 years ago, healthcare and healthcare insurance were affordable. So what happened? Medicare's payment model that creates unlimited taxpayer liability to doctors, hospitals, and insurers created skyrocketing healthcare costs, that's what happened. Healthcare costs have increased exponentially since Medicare was created in 1965.

Unlimited government spending in a private industry skyrockets costs out of control.

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by TonyR

This guy blaming Obama and Krugman for "the debt", and then calling somebody else a fool. The level of ignorance and epistemic closure is just astounding.

Obama has added more debt than any other leader, in any other nation, in the entire history of the world.

If Obama is elected again, his TRILLION dollar deficits will have added more debt than ALL OTHER U.S. PRESIDENTS COMBINED.

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by pricejj

Obama has added more debt than any other leader, in any other nation, in the entire history of the world.

If Obama is elected again, his TRILLION dollar deficits will have added more debt than ALL OTHER U.S. PRESIDENTS COMBINED.

This is such a facile, intellectually bankrupt, myopic, and perpspective lacking point that it barely deserves comment since you should know better. You pretend to be intelligent and then you fail to use logic and reason. Too busy practicing your partisan hackery.

Think about the environment that has forced these deficits. Let me give you some hints: two wars (started before he was president); a collapsing U.S. economy coupled with a highly destabilized U.S. economy; a do nothing, gridlocked, obstructionist congress.

I sense that you're intelligent enough to understand this. Now you just need to overcome your ignorance and bias.

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Yeah. 'Cause supply side is working so well.

Progressivism made America stronger, and richer, than any economic model we've ever used. Supply side has done nothing but make the already rich, uber-rich and the country weaker. Now we are in debt to China. That is the effect of supply side and deregulation.

Either destruction by war, or monetary devaluation through deficit spending, and debt has been the ruin of every single civilization in the history of mankind.

Guess which path the U.S. is on.

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by TonyR

This is such a facile, intellectually bankrupt, myopic, and perpspective lacking point that it barely deserves comment since you should know better. You pretend to be intelligent and then you fail to use logic and reason. Too busy practicing your partisan hackery.

Think about the environment that has forced these deficits. Let me give you some hints: two wars (started before he was president); a collapsing U.S. economy coupled with a highly destabilized U.S. economy; a do nothing, gridlocked, obstructionist congress.

Obama had a Democrat super-majority in Congress FOR 2 YEARS. The U.S. has been operating on their budget ever since. Yes, Democrats are entirely responsible for the last 4 years of debt.

This is something you cannot deny.

[pricejj]

The U.S. government has been spending 24%-25% of GDP for the last four years, which hasn't been done since WWII.

And you claim record spending has nothing to do with Obama's debt? How utterly insane.

[ghwk]

Originally Posted by barryr

Krugman Thinks raising taxes creates jobs. Yep, he's a genius. Has he ever written about Obama's "panels" that will decide who and what gets covered? Doubtful, at least with any honesty.

Another brilliant post from you exposing your inability to understand facts.

Who decides who and what gets covered right now? The beloved insurance companies you are trying to protect. Don't you get that? The "Death Panels" already run the insurance industry.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by pricejj

Obama had a Democrat super-majority in Congress FOR 2 YEARS. The U.S. has been operating on their budget ever since. Yes, Democrats are entirely responsible for the last 4 years of debt.

This is something you cannot deny.

Obama had a super-majority for, at best, seven weeks. Even that is debatable since Kennedy and Byrd were too ill to vote. We've gone over this before. Like most righties, you simply ignore that which does not fit your dogma. Other than the stimulus, Obama has had the least federal spending since the 50s. If you want to argue that the stimuli have been a failure, that's a different topic. Most "real" economists think that had Obama not gone with stimuli, we would now be in a depression worse that the 1930s.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by pricejj

Either destruction by war, or monetary devaluation through deficit spending, and debt has been the ruin of every single civilization in the history of mankind.

Guess which path the U.S. is on.

Oh noes! It's the end of the world!

Germany and Argentina went through the worst devaluations of their currency in modern history. They seem to be doing better now. The majority of the deficits we owe ourselves. I'm sure if Romney is elected, you righties will forget all about it.