Mitt's Mormon Speech

[DomCasual]

I'm not sure how big an issue Mitt Romney's religion really is. I realize that evangelicals claim it to be an issue, but would they really support him if he wasn't LDS? Or is that just the most convenient reason of many to avoid him?

I'm interested in how big an issue his religious choice is, outside of Utah. Here, his speech was big news. But do you think anyone really paid attention to it, in the rest of the country? And I am not looking for a religious debate. I am only interested in your opinion as to how much of a non-starter you think his religion really is to his electibility.

Me? I probably won't support Mitt Romney. I don't have as much problem with his flip-flopping on a few issues. I just don't know that he really does much for me, for various reasons I won't get into.

I actually thought this was a pretty solid speech, though. Supposedly, he wrote it entirely himself. I don't see that it would do much to change the feelings of those who wouldn't support him over religion. But it's a good speech, nonetheless.

"Faith in America " Address (As Prepared For Delivery):

"Thank you, Mr. President, for your kind introduction.

"It is an honor to be here today. This is an inspiring place because of you and the First Lady and because of the film exhibited across the way in the Presidential library. For those who have not seen it, it shows the President as a young pilot, shot down during the Second World War, being rescued from his life-raft by the crew of an American submarine. It is a moving reminder that when America has faced challenge and peril, Americans rise to the occasion, willing to risk their very lives to defend freedom and preserve our nation. We are in your debt. Thank you, Mr. President.

"Mr. President, your generation rose to the occasion, first to defeat Fascism and then to vanquish the Soviet Union . You left us, your children, a free and strong America . It is why we call yours the greatest generation. It is now my generation's turn. How we respond to today's challenges will define our generation. And it will determine what kind of America we will leave our children, and theirs.

"America faces a new generation of challenges. Radical violent Islam seeks to destroy us. An emerging China endeavors to surpass our economic leadership. And we are troubled at home by government overspending, overuse of foreign oil, and the breakdown of the family.

"Over the last year, we have embarked on a national debate on how best to preserve American leadership. Today, I wish to address a topic which I believe is fundamental to America 's greatness: our religious liberty. I will also offer perspectives on how my own faith would inform my Presidency, if I were elected.

"There are some who may feel that religion is not a matter to be seriously considered in the context of the weighty threats that face us. If so, they are at odds with the nation's founders, for they, when our nation faced its greatest peril, sought the blessings of the Creator. And further, they discovered the essential connection between the survival of a free land and the protection of religious freedom. In John Adams' words: 'We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people.'

"Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone.

"Given our grand tradition of religious tolerance and liberty, some wonder whether there are any questions regarding an aspiring candidate's religion that are appropriate. I believe there are. And I will answer them today.

"Almost 50 years ago another candidate from Massachusetts explained that he was an American running for president, not a Catholic running for president. Like him, I am an American running for president. I do not define my candidacy by my religion. A person should not be elected because of his faith nor should he be rejected because of his faith.

"Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin.

"As governor, I tried to do the right as best I knew it, serving the law and answering to the Constitution. I did not confuse the particular teachings of my church with the obligations of the office and of the Constitution - and of course, I would not do so as President. I will put no doctrine of any church above the plain duties of the office and the sovereign authority of the law.

"As a young man, Lincoln described what he called America 's 'political religion' - the commitment to defend the rule of law and the Constitution. When I place my hand on the Bible and take the oath of office, that oath becomes my highest promise to God. If I am fortunate to become your president, I will serve no one religion, no one group, no one cause, and no one interest. A President must serve only the common cause of the people of the United States .

"There are some for whom these commitments are not enough. They would prefer it if I would simply distance myself from my religion, say that it is more a tradition than my personal conviction, or disavow one or another of its precepts. That I will not do. I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it. My faith is the faith of my fathers - I will be true to them and to my beliefs.

"Some believe that such a confession of my faith will sink my candidacy. If they are right, so be it. But I think they underestimate the American people. Americans do not respect believers of convenience. Americans tire of those who would jettison their beliefs, even to gain the world.

"There is one fundamental question about which I often am asked. What do I believe about Jesus Christ? I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of mankind. My church's beliefs about Christ may not all be the same as those of other faiths. Each religion has its own unique doctrines and history. These are not bases for criticism but rather a test of our tolerance. Religious tolerance would be a shallow principle indeed if it were reserved only for faiths with which we agree.

"There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes President he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths.

"I believe that every faith I have encountered draws its adherents closer to God. And in every faith I have come to know, there are features I wish were in my own: I love the profound ceremony of the Catholic Mass, the approachability of God in the prayers of the Evangelicals, the tenderness of spirit among the Pentecostals, the confident independence of the Lutherans, the ancient traditions of the Jews, unchanged through the ages, and the commitment to frequent prayer of the Muslims. As I travel across the country and see our towns and cities, I am always moved by the many houses of worship with their steeples, all pointing to heaven, reminding us of the source of life's blessings.

"It is important to recognize that while differences in theology exist between the churches in America , we share a common creed of moral convictions. And where the affairs of our nation are concerned, it's usually a sound rule to focus on the latter - on the great moral principles that urge us all on a common course. Whether it was the cause of abolition, or civil rights, or the right to life itself, no movement of conscience can succeed in America that cannot speak to the convictions of religious people.

"We separate church and state affairs in this country, and for good reason. No religion should dictate to the state nor should the state interfere with the free practice of religion. But in recent years, the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond its original meaning. They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God. Religion is seen as merely a private affair with no place in public life. It is as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America - the religion of secularism. They are wrong.

"The founders proscribed the establishment of a state religion, but they did not countenance the elimination of religion from the public square. We are a nation 'Under God' and in God, we do indeed trust.

"We should acknowledge the Creator as did the Founders - in ceremony and word. He should remain on our currency, in our pledge, in the teaching of our history, and during the holiday season, nativity scenes and menorahs should be welcome in our public places. Our greatness would not long endure without judges who respect the foundation of faith upon which our constitution rests. I will take care to separate the affairs of government from any religion, but I will not separate us from 'the God who gave us liberty.'

"Nor would I separate us from our religious heritage. Perhaps the most important question to ask a person of faith who seeks a political office, is this: does he share these American values: the equality of human kind, the obligation to serve one another, and a steadfast commitment to liberty?

"They are not unique to any one denomination. They belong to the great moral inheritance we hold in common. They are the firm ground on which Americans of different faiths meet and stand as a nation, united.

"We believe that every single human being is a child of God - we are all part of the human family. The conviction of the inherent and inalienable worth of every life is still the most revolutionary political proposition ever advanced. John Adams put it that we are 'thrown into the world all equal and alike.'

"The consequence of our common humanity is our responsibility to one another, to our fellow Americans foremost, but also to every child of God. It is an obligation which is fulfilled by Americans every day, here and across the globe, without regard to creed or race or nationality.

"Americans acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God, not an indulgence of government. No people in the history of the world have sacrificed as much for liberty. The lives of hundreds of thousands of America 's sons and daughters were laid down during the last century to preserve freedom, for us and for freedom loving people throughout the world. America took nothing from that Century's terrible wars - no land from Germany or Japan or Korea ; no treasure; no oath of fealty. America 's resolve in the defense of liberty has been tested time and again. It has not been found wanting, nor must it ever be. America must never falter in holding high the banner of freedom.

"These American values, this great moral heritage, is shared and lived in my religion as it is in yours. I was taught in my home to honor God and love my neighbor. I saw my father march with Martin Luther King. I saw my parents provide compassionate care to others, in personal ways to people nearby, and in just as consequential ways in leading national volunteer movements. I am moved by the Lord's words: 'For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me...'

"My faith is grounded on these truths. You can witness them in Ann and my marriage and in our family. We are a long way from perfect and we have surely stumbled along the way, but our aspirations, our values, are the self-same as those from the other faiths that stand upon this common foundation. And these convictions will indeed inform my presidency.

"Today's generations of Americans have always known religious liberty. Perhaps we forget the long and arduous path our nation's forbearers took to achieve it. They came here from England to seek freedom of religion. But upon finding it for themselves, they at first denied it to others. Because of their diverse beliefs, Ann Hutchinson was exiled from Massachusetts Bay, a banished Roger Williams founded Rhode Island , and two centuries later, Brigham Young set out for the West. Americans were unable to accommodate their commitment to their own faith with an appreciation for the convictions of others to different faiths. In this, they were very much like those of the European nations they had left.

"It was in Philadelphia that our founding fathers defined a revolutionary vision of liberty, grounded on self evident truths about the equality of all, and the inalienable rights with which each is endowed by his Creator.

"We cherish these sacred rights, and secure them in our Constitutional order. Foremost do we protect religious liberty, not as a matter of policy but as a matter of right. There will be no established church, and we are guaranteed the free exercise of our religion.

"I'm not sure that we fully appreciate the profound implications of our tradition of religious liberty. I have visited many of the magnificent cathedrals in Europe . They are so inspired so grand so empty. Raised up over generations, long ago, so many of the cathedrals now stand as the postcard backdrop to societies just too busy or too 'enlightened' to venture inside and kneel in prayer. The establishment of state religions in Europe did no favor to Europe 's churches. And though you will find many people of strong faith there, the churches themselves seem to be withering away.

"Infinitely worse is the other extreme, the creed of conversion by conquest: violent Jihad, murder as martyrdom... killing Christians, Jews, and Muslims with equal indifference. These radical Islamists do their preaching not by reason or example, but in the coercion of minds and the shedding of blood. We face no greater danger today than theocratic tyranny, and the boundless suffering these states and groups could inflict if given the chance.

"The diversity of our cultural expression, and the vibrancy of our religious dialogue, has kept America in the forefront of civilized nations even as others regard religious freedom as something to be destroyed.

"In such a world, we can be deeply thankful that we live in a land where reason and religion are friends and allies in the cause of liberty, joined against the evils and dangers of the day. And you can be certain of this: Any believer in religious freedom, any person who has knelt in prayer to the Almighty, has a friend and ally in me. And so it is for hundreds of millions of our countrymen: we do not insist on a single strain of religion - rather, we welcome our nation's symphony of faith.

"Recall the early days of the First Continental Congress in Philadelphia , during the fall of 1774. With Boston occupied by British troops, there were rumors of imminent hostilities and fears of an impending war. In this time of peril, someone suggested that they pray. But there were objections. 'They were too divided in religious sentiments', what with Episcopalians and Quakers, Anabaptists and Congregationalists, Presbyterians and Catholics.

"Then Sam Adams rose, and said he would hear a prayer from anyone of piety and good character, as long as they were a patriot.

"And so together they prayed, and together they fought, and together, by the grace of God ... they founded this great nation.

"In that spirit, let us give thanks to the divine 'author of liberty.' And together, let us pray that this land may always be blessed, 'with freedom's holy light.'

"God bless the United States of America."

[TheDave]

I'm always suprised by just how much America takes religion into account when choosing a leader... So much for progress

By the way that was a very well written speach

[defenseman]

Romney's religion does not come into play for me wrt his candidacy for the president of the US. That said, the evangelicals, in my book anyway, have made a big mistake, and any other religious group who wishes to single him out due to his mormon religion. Huckabee is evangelical I believe, his response to the question of Romney's religion though the other day has definitely ensured Huckabee will not get my vote. They are a bunch of hypocrites from the word go.......dman

[defenseman]

Originally Posted by TheDave

I'm always suprised by just how much America takes religion into account when choosing a leader... So much for progress

By the way that was a very well written speach

Agreed...dman

[Bob]

Originally Posted by defenseman

Romney's religion does not come into play for me wrt his candidacy for the president of the US. That said, the evangelicals, in my book anyway, have made a big mistake, and any other religious group who wishes to single him out due to his mormon religion. Huckabee is evangelical I believe, his response to the question of Romney's religion though the other day has definitely ensured Huckabee will not get my vote. They are a bunch of hypocrites from the word go.......dman

What did Huckabee say? I didnt hear it...

I am trying to like Huckabee, but he has been hard against my vote. Still trying to get my head around what he would really do on the border.

[yavoon]

a while ago I posted a poll here about what would ppl vote for "if the person was qualified." blacks, women, atheists, mormons, divorced, catholic and a few others.

most finished real high, blacks and women were both 95%+ I believe. the lowest was atheist, and just above atheist was mormon.

[defenseman]

Originally Posted by Bob

What did Huckabee say? I didnt hear it...

I am trying to like Huckabee, but he has been hard against my vote. Still trying to get my head around what he would really do on the border.

In so many words, he said he would not comment on another mans religion. However, it's what he didn't say, that he should have I might add, that got me all riled up. The right answer is, the religious belief of his opponent should have no bearing on the vote someone casts. Religious belief shouldn't be a factor. Instead, he chose the cowards way out, and pleaded the fifth. From where I sit, he took the fifth because he believes it's an issue and refused to comment on it. Will he clam up when it counts under the pressures of the presidency? Will he not say what he believes, even though some may not care for it? His answer bothered me to the point, I can't trust someone who doesn't understand, religious beliefs are to each one different, it should have no bearing on an individual decisions. Really sad commentary from where I sit. Ergo, for this reason and his position on illegal aliens, and what now appears a tax hike issue, he does not get my vote...I could care freaking less how godly he feels he is or isn't. Leave that at the door........dman

[DomCasual]

Originally Posted by yavoon

a while ago I posted a poll here about what would ppl vote for "if the person was qualified." blacks, women, atheists, mormons, divorced, catholic and a few others.

most finished real high, blacks and women were both 95%+ I believe. the lowest was atheist, and just above atheist was mormon.

It's because we don't eat baby.

[TheDave]

Originally Posted by defenseman

In so many words, he said he would not comment on another mans religion. However, it's what he didn't say, that he should have I might add, that got me all riled up. The right answer is, the religious belief of his opponent should have no bearing on the vote someone casts. Religious belief shouldn't be a factor. Instead, he chose the cowards way out, and pleaded the fifth. From where I sit, he took the fifth because he believes it's an issue and refused to comment on it. Will he clam up when it counts under the pressures of the presidency? Will he not say what he believes, even though some may not care for it? His answer bothered me to the point, I can't trust someone who doesn't understand, religious beliefs are to each one different, it should have no bearing on an individual decisions. Really sad commentary from where I sit. Ergo, for this reason and his position on illegal aliens, and what now appears a tax hike issue, he does not get my vote...I could care freaking less how godly he feels he is or isn't. Leave that at the door........dman

I completely agree... But lets take the "relegion doesn not matter" comment a step further.

Assuming you agreed with a candidate on the majority of important issues yet the same candidate was a muslim... would they still get your vote?

[sisterhellfyre]

Originally Posted by TheDave

Assuming you agreed with a candidate on the majority of important issues yet the same candidate was a muslim... would they still get your vote?

Yes, I could vote for a Muslim. Or a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or a Zoroastrian. I'd have some additional questions about how they interpret and follow the edicts of their faiths, because I'm not familiar with those creeds. I don't share as much cultural common ground with them. So I'd like to know... Does the Muslim candidate believe that non-Muslims, or the non-Muslim state, should pay the "jizyah" tribute? To whom?

Errr... never mind that question... we do it already, with all the petrodollars flowing overseas into Saudi bank accounts.

Regards,
m.

[TheDave]

Originally Posted by sisterhellfyre

Yes, I could vote for a Muslim. Or a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or a Zoroastrian. I'd have some additional questions about how they interpret and follow the edicts of their faiths, because I'm not familiar with those creeds. I don't share as much cultural common ground with them. So I'd like to know... Does the Muslim candidate believe that non-Muslims, or the non-Muslim state, should pay the "jizyah" tribute? To whom?

Errr... never mind that question... we do it already, with all the petrodollars flowing overseas into Saudi bank accounts.

Regards,
m.

For the most part i agree with you... But i do have some reservations.

See, in my mind all religion is somewhat crazy. So in order to make sense of this "craziness" I've created a floating scale to rank them. For the most part I consider Muslims to be about as nuts as most Christians (just judging their beliefs). Unfortunately their religion seems to be to easily "modified" towards violence. Maybe it my own naivety but i just can't ever imagine a situation where i came to the conclusion that blowing myself up in a shopping mall is the right solution... It's just really ****ing weird to me that a significant number of them are able to come to this conclusion.

So though i wouldn't automatically eliminate a Muslim from contention... I would have additional questions that a Christian, Catholic, or Mormon wouldn't have to answer to.

Sorry to hijack the thread...

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by TheDave

I completely agree... But lets take the "relegion doesn not matter" comment a step further.

Assuming you agreed with a candidate on the majority of important issues yet the same candidate was a muslim... would they still get your vote?

if they were liberal and believed in the US constitution and free markets and the things I like, sure. if they even hinted they liked sharia law, which I consider awful, bigoted, violent, and cruel. then never in a million years and I would consider them enemies of human freedom.

.

[sisterhellfyre]

Originally Posted by TheDave

For the most part i agree with you... But i do have some reservations. See, in my mind all religion is somewhat crazy.

So though i wouldn't automatically eliminate a Muslim from contention... I would have additional questions that a Christian, Catholic, or Mormon wouldn't have to answer to.

Sorry to hijack the thread...

I didn't hear a hijack there, Dave. If there was a hijack there I actually did it by mentioning the other religions. So it's on me... but to me it sounds more like reasoning it through.

I agree with you in principle, but would narrow it down just a bit: fundamentalists of any religion are equally bugnuts. From where I sit, the zealot Muslims calling for the execution of that British schoolteacher last week are no less (and no more) insane than the fundamentalist Christian calling for the assassination of doctors who provide abortions. it's all the same racket: inciting and exploiting the fear and ignorance for political power and personal gain.

Gee... doesn't that sound familiar, in an eerie sort of way. What's the color-coded terrorism alert today, gang?

My point in that last comment really is not to take yet another gratuitous potshot at the Bush administration. Frankly, that has become so easy it's boring. About like shooting baby ducks in a barrel. The point is that the costumes and particular rhetorical styles of the "leaders" change, but the game is the same whether played in Khartoum, Tehran, Moscow or Washington. We're not all that different, one from another, under the skin.

For reaching the decision to blow yourself up in a shopping mall... I suspect it has more to do with frustration, desperation and poverty, and the exploitation of those (along with the fear and ignorance) by the so-called "leaders," than it does with the religion per se.

Then again, I wonder if our perspectives on it would look a bit different if we lived in ancient Rome? Modern Indonesia? Or any other time/place where being Christian wasn't the accepted and safe "default" cultural position?

Or what if the Jews in Germany had decided to take up arms when the Gestapo came for them? Would they have been terrorists or heroes?

Regards,
m.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by TheDave

For the most part i agree with you... But i do have some reservations.

See, in my mind all religion is somewhat crazy. So in order to make sense of this "craziness" I've created a floating scale to rank them. For the most part I consider Muslims to be about as nuts as most Christians (just judging their beliefs). Unfortunately their religion seems to be to easily "modified" towards violence. Maybe it my own naivety but i just can't ever imagine a situation where i came to the conclusion that blowing myself up in a shopping mall is the right solution... It's just really ****ing weird to me that a significant number of them are able to come to this conclusion.

So though i wouldn't automatically eliminate a Muslim from contention... I would have additional questions that a Christian, Catholic, or Mormon wouldn't have to answer to.

Sorry to hijack the thread...

Great thoughtful post... dont think you are hijacking...

I could vote for a Muslim if they denounced the use of violence (or if it was clear through their words) as a means to promote political change. In fact, it might be helpful if our president had the same faith -- as I dont think politicains understand the faith, and make misteps and miscaculations as a result. I do think that they would have to make it very clear that they put America before there faith.

[Bob]

[QUOTE=sisterhellfyre;1809207]I didn't hear a hijack there, Dave. If there was a hijack there I actually did it by mentioning the other religions. So it's on me... but to me it sounds more like reasoning it through.

I agree with you in principle, but would narrow it down just a bit: fundamentalists of any religion are equally bugnuts. From where I sit, the zealot Muslims calling for the execution of that British schoolteacher last week are no less (and no more) insane than the fundamentalist Christian calling for the assassination of doctors who provide abortions. it's all the same racket: inciting and exploiting the fear and ignorance for political power and personal gain.
QUOTE]

Absolutely true. My concern is about percentages of those that use violence in the Muslim faith to affect political change. The percentage of young American Muslim males sits at 26% according to PEW resaerch polls -- in other countries teh percentage is sometimes higher.

In America, not sure of the percentage of "Christains" willing to blowup abortion clinic, but any percentage is way too high... I venture to say, that it less than 26%.

[Meck77]

I could care less what religion he is. In his last debate he came off as a car salesmen willing to say whatever he had to to make a sale.

Flip flop!

[gunns]

I have to admit I'm getting very tired of the evangelists, Southern Baptists, etc. We've had one in the White House who has voiced his religious notions a few too many times. The last election was controlled by the Bible Belt, they were more worried about gay marriages and abortions. That being said though, I would hate to lump a group together as having the same thoughts and would hope my ears are open for what I want to hear.

[DomCasual]

Originally Posted by Meck77

I could care less what religion he is. In his last debate he came off as a car salesmen willing to say whatever he had to to make a sale.

Flip flop!

I am on the fence about how I feel about Romney. That said, I actually didn't have a problem with the flip-flopping. I only saw about 90 minutes of the YouTube debates, so I might have missed parts of what you're talking about. I did see his response regarding abortion. I thought he was very sincere.

Life is way more gray than politics demands. And the fact is, real people's morals and beliefs evolve. The abortion issue is a perfect example. I once sincerely believed I was pro-choice. I never felt great about the morality of abortion, but I felt a woman should absolutely have the right to make the decision on her own.

Then, I had kids. We have two kids, and we had two difficult pregnancies. We walked a tightrope with our first one, and barely avoided miscarriage. As hard as we had to work to maintain that pregnancy, the concept of deliberately terminating one became repugnant to me. I felt a spiritual connection with my son all through the pregnancy. I didn't see it as a fetus. I saw it as my unborn son. I completely realize that sounds hokey, but it's true. I still think there are circumstances where abortion is a necessary evil. But most of the abortions that are currently legally performed don't fall under those circumstances.

I guess my point is that people change. If someone claims that they have the exact same convictions on every major issue that they had, say, twenty years ago - well, then I think they're lying. When Bill Clinton says, "I did use marijuana, but I didn't inhale," I think it's ridiculous. Similarly, when Barack Obama says, "Of course I inhaled. That was the point," I really respect him. (I actually really, really like Barack Obama. I don't know that I want him to be president, but I think he's a sincere, honorable man - but I digress.) We're all different than we once were.

So, when Mitt Romney says, "You know, I thought I was pro-choice. But when abortion legislation came across my desk, I found that I couldn't sign it." - well, that's something I can completely understand.

What I can't stand (and this is the reason why I have to force myself past personal political apathy) is someone who bases their opinion on the expectations of their political party.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by Meck77

I could care less what religion he is. In his last debate he came off as a car salesmen willing to say whatever he had to to make a sale.

Flip flop!

I have that feeling as well... too slick, too tan, too rehearsed.

I have heard his reasons for changing his position on abortion -- and although I understand "the logic" I am not sure that I believe it, or him. He took his origional liberal stand simply because he was in a liberal state, and to get elected he sold out on this issue. When the legislation came to him, he found he couldnt sign it, but once again when pressured to obtain political power initially --he flip flopped -- and guess what, the next person in office needs to be very strong to stay true to issues like the border or we will loose our country -- he has shown once that he would buckle for a state job and its power, when in the whitehouse the pressure would be much greater.

But now I wonder if Huckabee is weak on the border. I don’t care if he doesn’t understand my faith, but I do wonder about a person who would disregard someone from office on that issue alone. That seems small of him --what else would he deny a person on issues of faith/non-faith alone?

Giuliani, seems like a mobster -- strong on defense, and decent in a knife fight, but wouldn’t want to spend 5 minutes with him for Thanksgiving dinner, or anywhere near the teenage daughters.

McCain is the worst on the border, and we will likely find out soon, that he actually died three years ago and his corpse is been animated by very thin threads by a master puppeteer.

I hear there is a Gynecologist who is running for office (no, Bill is not allowed to run again.) So Mr. Paul despite what you think about his politics seems honest – but until this guy lands some real numbers from the planet I live on, I will see him as he is a VERY long shot that he is, and believe that it woudl be a miracle if he pulled above 7% on any legit national poll.

Hillary is Coulter with a shorter dew, (is far less sexy Gaff) and with different politics. I think that Hilary is worse in some ways because what the hell does she REALLY believe? Does anyone know?

What a freak show to choose from. I wish, that I liked a few folks that had a prayer.

[cutthemdown]

Here's a copy of the speech that was scrapped as to Mormon.


Hello and thank you for having me here today. What a great Library this is and god willing I will have one someday as well.....pause for laughs.........

A lot has been made of my faith in recent days. Many questions about how my religion defers from that of other Christian religions have arose recently, and make no mistake I am a Christian and proud of it!!!!........pause for claps........

First let's talk about the most important thing about being a Christian........WE GET TO GO TO HEAVEN!!!!!!! pause for applause....Now of course most of you believe that there is heaven and earth, and hell.....Well that's sort of what we think also but instead we have 3 levels of heaven the telistial , terrestrial, and celestial, so really we are 3 times as good. If one heaven is heaven then 3 heavens is much much better I'm sure you all will agree.

Another big important factor is that most of you think Satan was a fallen angel. Well cmon you have to admit thats a little far fetched, so we like to believe Satan, or the Devil, is actually a sibling of Jesus. It's not a big deal just a little tweak we gave to the story to make it more compelling.

Another thing we just could not accept was that Jesus can save us from every sin. Adultery and murder we have decided can not be forgiven.

Most Christians feel salvation is through Jesus Christ who died for your sins by being crucified by Pontus Pilot on a hill, we believe it is through Joseph Smith who died by being shot by a mob while he was in jail for destroying a newspaper who printed a story outlying his plural marriages.

Oh by the way that more then one wife thing was good while it lasted but we don't do that anymore. It turns out that having one wife is bad enough.

One other thing is that we believe all of our spirits lived with god in heaven before coming to earth. I mean this makes sense because that way we know the way back when we die. How would you really be able to find your way back to heaven if you had never been there before? Really that one is just common sense.

There are a few other differences just like Catholics and Baptists have different beliefs. The important thing though is that we are all Christians and therefore better then everyone else!!!!! pause for claps and cheers....

Well I'd like to thank everyone for listening and now I will take some questions, white men only please!!!!

[Rohirrim]

Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom.

One of the most statements I've ever had the displeasure to see issuing from the bloated, greased-up yapper of an American politician. In the long pages of history, religion has been one of the premier forces operating against freedom and liberty. He also tries to further that other bs myth that the majority of the Founders were christian and that this country was founded on christian principles.

That, my friends, is an out and out lie.

Many of the men who signed the Declaration and the Constitution were Freemasons. Chief among these American Freemasons was George Washington himself. Freemasons were the original secular humanists. Why were they a "secret" society? Because the church was out to destroy them. Why? Because the Freemasons put forth the proposition that man could explain his world through many more means than just the interpretations of scripture. He could use reason. He could use science. He could rely on his own intelligence. He didn't need the intervention of clergy.

The Founders did NOT base the ideals of this country on principles of christianity. They based it on the principles of the Enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment) Locke, Hume, Smith, Cincinnatus (upon whom Washington modeled his life), the Romans and the Greeks. The age they lived in, the age they helped create, is called the Age of Reason. It is called that because it marks that threshhold in history where mankind stepped beyond religious superstition and the oppression of the ecclesiastics and began to reason for himself.

We now find ourselves with a bunch of Americans who want to turn back history, who want to return to the dark ages, who lie about who we are and what we stand for in order to destroy our freedom. After all, freedom of religion is also freedom FROM religion. This speech of Romney's is symbolic of the moral cowardice in Washington. Pandering to religion. The Founders are barfing in their graves.

[defenseman]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Here's a copy of the speech that was scrapped as to Mormon.


Hello and thank you for having me here today. What a great Library this is and god willing I will have one someday as well.....pause for laughs.........

A lot has been made of my faith in recent days. Many questions about how my religion defers from that of other Christian religions have arose recently, and make no mistake I am a Christian and proud of it!!!!........pause for claps........

First let's talk about the most important thing about being a Christian........WE GET TO GO TO HEAVEN!!!!!!! pause for applause....Now of course most of you believe that there is heaven and earth, and hell.....Well that's sort of what we think also but instead we have 3 levels of heaven the telistial , terrestrial, and celestial, so really we are 3 times as good. If one heaven is heaven then 3 heavens is much much better I'm sure you all will agree.

Another big important factor is that most of you think Satan was a fallen angel. Well cmon you have to admit thats a little far fetched, so we like to believe Satan, or the Devil, is actually a sibling of Jesus. It's not a big deal just a little tweak we gave to the story to make it more compelling.

Another thing we just could not accept was that Jesus can save us from every sin. Adultery and murder we have decided can not be forgiven.

Most Christians feel salvation is through Jesus Christ who died for your sins by being crucified by Pontus Pilot on a hill, we believe it is through Joseph Smith who died by being shot by a mob while he was in jail for destroying a newspaper who printed a story outlying his plural marriages.

Oh by the way that more then one wife thing was good while it lasted but we don't do that anymore. It turns out that having one wife is bad enough.

One other thing is that we believe all of our spirits lived with god in heaven before coming to earth. I mean this makes sense because that way we know the way back when we die. How would you really be able to find your way back to heaven if you had never been there before? Really that one is just common sense.

There are a few other differences just like Catholics and Baptists have different beliefs. The important thing though is that we are all Christians and therefore better then everyone else!!!!! pause for claps and cheers....

Well I'd like to thank everyone for listening and now I will take some questions, white men only please!!!!

I sense you are judging him based on his religion? Hmmm...interesting. One could slap a judgement on Huckabee that since he is an ordained evangelical minister you can be "assured" he'll legislate and decide based on religion also, especially since this guy can quote you chapter, verse and word. Why is it that we all should believe huckabee when he says , he doesn't do that, and not Romney? Because one is mormon and the other is an evangelical christian? Do some homework on John Adams and how he addressed key members of the congress when "religious" beliefs nearly put a stop to all members praying together for their country. Romney spoke of it, and Adams was absolutely spot on wrt it...dman

[Rohirrim]

20 GREATEST NAMES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION

John Adams - Spoke favorably of Freemasonry -- never joined
Samuel Adams - (Close and principle associate of Hancock, Revere & other Masons
Ethan Allen - Mason
Edmund Burke - Mason
John Claypoole - Mason
William Daws - Mason
Benjamin Franklin - Mason
Nathan Hale - No evidence of Masonic connections
John Hancock - Mason
Benjamin Harrison - No evidence of Masonic connections
Patrick Henry - No evidence of Masonic connections
Thomas Jefferson - Deist with some evidence of Masonic connections
John Paul Jones - Mason
Francis Scott Key - No evidence of Masonic connections
Robert Livingston - Mason
James Madison - Some evidence of Masonic membership
Thomas Paine - Humanist
Paul Revere - Mason
Colonel Benjamin Tupper - Mason
George Washington - Mason
Daniel Webster - Some evidence of Masonic connections
Summary: 10 Masons, 3 probable Masons, 1 Humanist, 2 Advocates of Freemasonry, 4 no record of connections.

SIGNERS OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE

Known Masons (8): Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Joseph Hewes, William Hooper, Robert Treat Payne, Richard Stockton, George Walton, William Whipple

Evidence of Membership And/or Affiliations (7): Elbridge Berry, Lyman Hall, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Nelson Jr., John Penn, George Read, Roger Sherman

Summary: 15 of 56 Signers were Freemasons or probable Freemasons.

It's true that this represents only 27% of the total signers. But this 27% included the principle movers of the Revolution, most notably Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, the primary authors of the Declaration. The former was a Freemason, the latter a deist and possible Freemason. If one were to analyze the Declaration, he would see the humanistic influences.

In any event, there is no evidence that even 27% of the signers were true Christians. In considering whether or not this is a Christian nation, it isn't the number of Masons that is as important as is the number of founders overall who were non-believers.

SIGNERS OF THE CONSTITUTION

Known Masons (9): Gunning Bedford, Jr., John Blair, David Brearly, Jacob Broom, Daniel Carrol, John Dickinson, Benjamin Franklin, Rufus King, George Washington

Evidence of Membership And/or Affiliations (13): Abraham Baldwin, William Blount, Elbridge Gerry, Nicholas Gilman, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson, John Lansing, Jr., James Madison, George Mason, George Read, Robert Morris, Roger Sherman, George Wythe

Those Who Later Became Masons (6): William Richardson Davie, Jr., Jonathan Dayton, Dr. James McHenry, John Francis Mercer, William Patterson, Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer

Summary: 28 of 40 signers were Freemasons or possible Freemasons based on evidence other than Lodge records.

MASONIC INFLUENCES IN EARLY AMERICAN HISTORY

- Lafayette, French liaison to the Colonies, without whose aid the war could not have been won, was a Freemason.

- The majority of the commanders of the Continental Army were Freemasons and members of "Army Lodges."

- Most of Washington's Generals were Freemasons.

- The Boston Tea Party was planned at the Green Dragon Tavern, also known as the "Freemasons' Arms," and "the Headquarters of the Revolution."

- George Washington was sworn in as the first President of the United States by Robert Livingston, Grand Master of New York's Masonic Lodge. The Bible on which he took his oath was from his own Masonic lodge.

- The Cornerstone of the Capital building was laid by the Grand Lodge of Maryland.

[TailgateNut]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom.

put forth the proposition that man could explain his world through many more means than just the interpretations of scripture. He could use reason. He could use science. He could rely on his own intelligence. He didn't need the intervention of clergy.

We now find ourselves with a bunch of Americans who want to turn back history, who want to return to the dark ages, who lie about who we are and what we stand for in order to destroy our freedom. After all, freedom of religion is also freedom FROM religion. This speech of Romney's is symbolic of the moral cowardice in Washington. Pandering to religion. The Founders are barfing in their graves.

Rep!

What a concept: Separation of church and state!

[Rohirrim]

"Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle." Thomas Jefferson