Derek Wolfe was a non factor against Oakland

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by fontaine

Sure, all that is applicable. But I still stand by my call that he was a non factor because I don't judge him by his run game, but on what he was drafted for which is to provide a level of pass rush.

In this game 44 snaps, maybe two hurries when Oakland are playing catchup for most of the second half? Nah, he can do better than that.

I expect him to be better too, but do you honestly expect a 22-year old rookie, who has played 1st and 2nd down at DE to be able to break a double-team on 3rd down, at DT, to sack the QB? The only player I know of who could do that is J.J. Watt. Watt is an athletic freak (and was the 11th overall pick). Wolfe is not. Watt had 14 tackles and 1 sack at this point in his rookie year, he did not record his 2nd sack until game 7.

The Patriots OL stoned the Bills DL (which is supposed to be one of the best in the NFL). We all want the Broncos to win, to do that, Wolfe, and the entire Defense will need to have a great game.

[Agamemnon]

Can we please wait at least one full season before nitpicking every rookie to death? Is that too much to ask?

[DivineLegion]

JDR disagrees with the premise behind this thread. Listen to his Thursday interview on the team site. As a matter of fact every defensive statistic the Broncos have posted this season tell the same story. He's not active in the pass defense, but the broncos have made huge strides defensively as a unit. The overall success of the Broncos through 4 games shows that our offseason defensive acquisitions have been considerable improvements. This whole notion of Derek not making an immediate impact seems like a hasty generalization, coupled with a severe lack of schematic understanding.

[Bmore Manning]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

Lately they've been REALLY successful running out of spread formations and eating Nickel defenses like the one you just proposed alive.

Lately as in against Buffalo Bills during the second half? We are a different team than Buffalo personnel wise. We have one of the better NCBs in football with two very good CBs on the outside. In Nickel we don't expose our weekness of having issues with our LBs in space. You yourself know personnel is different from team to team. The Steelers, Giants, and Jets have blue printed how to beat NE. Press man coverage and getting home with four rushers.

What do you propose schematically?

[Bmore Manning]

Originally Posted by DivineLegion

JDR disagrees with the premise behind this thread. Listen to his Thursday interview on the team site. As a matter of fact every defensive statistic the Broncos have posted this season tell the same story. He's not active in the pass defense, but the broncos have made huge strides defensively as a unit. The overall success of the Broncos through 4 games shows that our offseason defensive acquisitions have been considerable improvements. This whole notion of Derek not making an immediate impact seems like a hasty generalization, coupled with a severe lack of schematic understanding.

I pointed out the very same critique of Wolfe in a thread recently, he lacks the explosive first step to be on the edge. I understand the schematics of the D quiet well and know on the strong side of the line during Under Looks with Miller coming off the edge that the DE must be able to contain, set the edge, and generate a push. Wolfe would be better used at UT with his skill set and Malik at DE. Malik is another DT/DE tweener, but Malik has great athleticism and explosiveness where the same schematic fundamentals can be accomplished, but putting players in better positions to make plays.

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by pricejj

I expect him to be better too, but do you honestly expect a 22-year old rookie, who has played 1st and 2nd down at DE to be able to break a double-team on 3rd down, at DT, to sack the QB? The only player I know of who could do that is J.J. Watt. Watt is an athletic freak (and was the 11th overall pick). Wolfe is not. Watt had 14 tackles and 1 sack at this point in his rookie year, he did not record his 2nd sack until game 7.

I already addressed this in an earlier post:

I don't expect Wolfe to be a finisher in racking up sacks/hurries but I do expect him to do the basics in leverage/technique and first step.

I can't really comment on Watt, haven't watched/tracked enough of him but from what I've seen both him and Connor Barwin at DE are explosive off the snap which give them a great advantage. They were doing that last year, so yeah, I guess I do expect a rookie to be quicker than someone like Unrein/Bannan.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Bmore Manning

Lately as in against Buffalo Bills during the second half? We are a different team than Buffalo personnel wise. We have one of the better NCBs in football with two very good CBs on the outside. In Nickel we don't expose our weekness of having issues with our LBs in space. You yourself know personnel is different from team to team. The Steelers, Giants, and Jets have blue printed how to beat NE. Press man coverage and getting home with four rushers.

...and another buck-sixty against the Titans week one. In fact, the only teams they haven't had success running against were Arizona (still a respectable 90 yards, especially when playing from behind) and 77 more in an offensive shootout vs Baltimore.

Taking a team that can be (and IS) in the top 10 rushing while primarily running from shotgun and spread points of entry lightly will bite us in the ass if we dare.

Originally Posted by Bmore Manning

What do you propose schematically?

Easy question. Answer: Not overreacting to an out of division game early in the season when we're still learning a new defensive scheme from a new DC.

Play our base packages. Don't get cute. We can get cutesy if we play them in the playoffs. For now we need to continue building off what we've done and what is working for us.

Beyond that, play heavy zones so we can keep eyes in the backfield and react to the play.

[Bmore Manning]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

...and another buck-sixty against the Titans week one. In fact, the only teams they haven't had success running against were Arizona (still a respectable 90 yards, especially when playing from behind) and 77 more in an offensive shootout vs Baltimore.

Taking a team that can be (and IS) in the top 10 rushing while primarily running from shotgun and spread points of entry lightly will bite us in the ass if we dare.



Easy question. Answer: Not overreacting to an out of division game early in the season when we're still learning a new defensive scheme from a new DC.

Play our base packages. Don't get cute. We can get cutesy if we play them in the playoffs. For now we need to continue building off what we've done and what is working for us.

Beyond that, play heavy zones so we can keep eyes in the backfield and react to the play.

You know what that's my fault. I didn't know you ment literally run, I thought you ment that as in score. Yes, if we put our Nickel personnel on the field we could be exposing ourselves to the threat of the run. I ment from a stopping their pass attack perspective I like press man coverage with Doom and Miller at DE, which like you have proposed in your X's and O's is not getting too cute. I prefer man though to zone.. Maybe LBs and Safeties in a zone to attack Gronkowski, but I think that's what you mean.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

...and another buck-sixty against the Titans week one. In fact, the only teams they haven't had success running against were Arizona (still a respectable 90 yards, especially when playing from behind) and 77 more in an offensive shootout vs Baltimore.

Taking a team that can be (and IS) in the top 10 rushing while primarily running from shotgun and spread points of entry lightly will bite us in the ass if we dare.

The Titans are 27th against the run right now. The Bills are right there beside them at 28th. Baltimore and Arizona? 13th and 14th respectively. So they tear up terrible run defenses and can't crack 100 against mediocre to above average run defenses. I'm not really seeing anything to be scared of.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

The Titans are 27th against the run right now. The Bills are right there beside them at 28th. Baltimore and Arizona? 13th and 14th respectively. So they tear up terrible run defenses and can't crack 100 against mediocre to above average run defenses. I'm not really seeing anything to be scared of.

Definitely a sufficient sample size

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by fontaine

I can't really comment on Watt, haven't watched/tracked enough of him but from what I've seen both him and Connor Barwin at DE are explosive off the snap which give them a great advantage. They were doing that last year, so yeah, I guess I do expect a rookie to be quicker than someone like Unrein/Bannan.

I judge how quick a guy can be coming off the snap, or in space, by their three-cone. Let's compare shall we.

Three-cone:
Von Miller - 6.7s
Connor Barwin - 6.87s
Elvis Dumervil - N/A (but you can bet it's fast)
J.J. Watt - 6.88s (amazing for a 300 lb. DT)

Mitch Unrein - 7.2s
Derek Wolfe - 7.26s
Justin Bannan - 7.31s
Kevin Vickerson - 7.79s

What does this tell us? Unrein, Wolfe, and Bannan all have similar ability to fire off the snap. They all have low 7's (which is very good for DT's). Vickerson trails a bit.

What sets Wolfe apart is his strength, tenacity, and production. This is something that we have seen a small glimpse of so far this season. It's difficult to find a good pass-rushing UT. Hopefully Wolfe can become that guy.

[DivineLegion]

Originally Posted by Bmore Manning

I pointed out the very same critique of Wolfe in a thread recently, he lacks the explosive first step to be on the edge. I understand the schematics of the D quiet well and know on the strong side of the line during Under Looks with Miller coming off the edge that the DE must be able to contain, set the edge, and generate a push. Wolfe would be better used at UT with his skill set and Malik at DE. Malik is another DT/DE tweener, but Malik has great athleticism and explosiveness where the same schematic fundamentals can be accomplished, but putting players in better positions to make plays.

The reason the Broncos are putting Wolfe at DE on first and second down is to establish the line of scrimmage when teams run the football. JDR likes his linemen to occupy blockers so his linebackers can flow to the ball, and Wolfe has been doing just that. The Broncos rush five on almost every down with all 4 D-linemen, and Von Miller attacking from outside. One of the biggest improvements this season has come from 1. Von Miller keeping contain, and maintaining his gap 2. Elvis being 100% 3. Coaching (improved technique and gap integrity across the board) 4. Interior lineman occupying blockers and not getting pushed off the ball allowing our linebackers to attack. I think Wolfe has done exactly what the coaches have been asking him to do, and this week I bet you will see him used more in a pass rushing capacity. We are going to need that inside push against the Patriots this week, and to do that I foresee JDR using Derek more as an UT in this game.

[Requiem]

Derek Wolfe Derek Wolfe needs to get a D-Line buddy drafted in 2013. We got Miller and Dumervil with the speed. Wolfman needs a sidekick.

[pricejj]

A snapshot of other DT's in the 2012 draft class (through 4 games):

Dontari Poe - #11 - 6 tackles, 0 sacks
Fletcher Cox - #12 - 10 tackles, 1 sack
Michael Brockers - #14 - 0 tackles, 0 sacks (injured ankle in preseason)
Derek Wolfe - #36 - 10 tackles, 1 sack
Kendall Reyes - #49 - 3 tackles, 0 sacks
Jerel Worthy - #51 - 5 tackles, 1 sack
Devon Still - #53 - 3 tackles, 0 sacks
Brandon Thompson - #93 - 1 tackle, 0 sacks

It's a small sample, but Wolfe is the only one starting. He wouldn't be starting if Hunter wouldn't have been injured, and he is also taking a lot more snaps due to Warren's injury.

I would say he's doing okay, and maybe by being thrust into the fire, his learning curve will be quick. We'll see.

[DivineLegion]

Originally Posted by Requiem

Derek Wolfe Derek Wolfe needs to get a D-Line buddy drafted in 2013. We got Miller and Dumervil with the speed. Wolfman needs a sidekick.

Kevin Vickerson has been a pretty good sidekick. Derek just needs to get stronger, and he will. It's not easy playing in the NFL when your fresh out of college. Your competing against guys who have been on finite strength building regimines, and strict diets in order to substantially fill a teams given role.

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Can we please wait at least one full season before nitpicking every rookie to death? Is that too much to ask?

if they are complete no shows in games tath is one thing, to piss and moan that he is not N Suh in the first quarter of his career is silly IMO..

with the OP IIRC calling him our first pick insinuating that he was a number one pick..

NO one expected him to be a ball breaker in his first year, except some of the morons on board here.. Trying to make him inot a folk hero with names and such..

As a general rule names come after the player earns it..

I have never heard any coach say anything to lead anyone that is not a moron to think he was an instant answer, mostly I have heard them describe him as a grinder and guy with a motor that never stops.. Which means he is not the guy that shoots the gap and nails the QB before he gets to his drop.. But that he continues to play till the whistle blows..

If he were that guy that was going to be an instant answer he would have been drafted top five like Miller..

as you said, give the guy a chance pt figure out where the showers are before expecting him to learn a totally new scheme for several (read all) different spots on the DL, and to perform at pro bowl levels..

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by DivineLegion

JDR disagrees with the premise behind this thread. Listen to his Thursday interview on the team site. As a matter of fact every defensive statistic the Broncos have posted this season tell the same story. He's not active in the pass defense, but the broncos have made huge strides defensively as a unit. The overall success of the Broncos through 4 games shows that our offseason defensive acquisitions have been considerable improvements. This whole notion of Derek not making an immediate impact seems like a hasty generalization, coupled with a severe lack of schematic understanding.

I get tired of those FF owners or clowns that think players should be studs like they are in madden..

last year we were #22 in rush defense giving up 126 a game..
this year we are #9 giving up 87.5 while playing IIRC playing the #4, 15 and 25th rusher in the NFL in 3 of those four games..

we had made progress cutting the running yards by 44% what is not to be happy about.. that was one of the biggest issues to address this year.. so far it is looking good even after losing the starting DT..

one step at a time.

this is year 2 of a 3+ year rebuild..

everyone needs to relax just a bit..

[DivineLegion]

Originally Posted by lonestar

I get tired of those FF owners or clowns that think players should be studs like they are in madden..

last year we were #22 in rush defense giving up 126 a game..
this year we are #9 giving up 87.5 while playing IIRC playing the #4, 15 and 25th rusher in the NFL in 3 of those four games..

we had made progress cutting the running yards by 44% what is not to be happy about.. that was one of the biggest issues to address this year.. so far it is looking good even after losing the starting DT..

one step at a time.

this is year 2 of a 3+ year rebuild..

everyone needs to relax just a bit..

Touché sir

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

Definitely a sufficient sample size

Seemed sufficient enough for you to act like they have a potent rushing attack.