Germany Sets Solar Power Record

[Rohirrim]

German solar power plants produced a world record 22 gigawatts of electricity per hour - equal to 20 nuclear power stations at full capacity - through the midday hours on Friday and Saturday, the head of a renewable energy think tank said.

The German government decided to abandon nuclear power after the ***ushima nuclear disaster last year, closing eight plants immediately and shutting down the remaining nine by 2022.

They will be replaced by renewable energy sources such as wind, solar and bio-mass.

Norbert Allnoch, director of the Institute of the Renewable Energy Industry (IWR) in Muenster, said the 22 gigawatts of solar power per hour fed into the national grid on Saturday met nearly 50 percent of the nation's midday electricity needs.

"Never before anywhere has a country produced as much photovoltaic electricity," Allnoch told Reuters. "Germany came close to the 20 gigawatt (GW) mark a few times in recent weeks. But this was the first time we made it over."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...84P0FI20120526

[Mecklomaniac]

Utilities and consumer groups have complained the FIT for solar power adds about 2 cents per kilowatt/hour on top of electricity prices in Germany that are already among the highest in the world with consumers paying about 23 cents per kw/h.

German consumers pay about 4 billion euros ($5 billion) per year on top of their electricity bills for solar power, according to a 2012 report by the Environment Ministry.

Critics also complain growing levels of solar power make the national grid more less stable due to fluctuations in output.

Interesting but still a long way to go and many questions to answer.

Cost ---Panel farms are expensive. From the article solar cost 23 cents per kw/h. Hydro here in the pacific northwest costs 3-6 cents per kw/h

Power storage --- How to you deal with power needs at night, or low light.
Use of rare earth minerals in making solar panels.

[Drek]

Originally Posted by Mecklomaniac

Interesting but still a long way to go and many questions to answer.

Cost ---Panel farms are expensive. From the article solar cost 23 cents per kw/h. Hydro here in the pacific northwest costs 3-6 cents per kw/h

Power storage --- How to you deal with power needs at night, or low light.
Use of rare earth minerals in making solar panels.

1. the very thing you cited specifically blames the solar panels for a 2 cent bump, not the difference between 3-6 cents and 23 cents, FYI. So if solar panels were rolled out similarly in your region with similar yield your costs would go from 3-6 up to 5-8 kw/h.

2. Power banking is actually possible, FYI, thanks to these things called batteries. Also, I don't see anyone advocating solar as the be all end all of energy issues.

If you assume a 10% increase in energy cost for a solar system akin to what Germany is moving towards versus the increased cost of perpetual involvement in the Middle East (militarily, domestic aid, etc.) you'll come out with a damn strong argument for us rolling out solar across this country.

Smart grid, solar farms, wind farms, more nuclear plants. Push that and break the dependence on foreign oil. Then we can do what we should be doing with regards to the Middle East - walk away until they sort their own **** out like the rest of us had to.

[Rohirrim]

Not to mention the massive reduction in carbon emissions. I would sure like to save the world's coral reefs if at all possible.

[lonestar]

was in Germany a few weeks ago and marveled at all the SVCs on roofs over there almost all houses have them.. even the farm houses and barns..

However in snow storms well not very effective nor are they on cloudy days and folks that is a lot of the time over there ..

their government mandated it and is paying loads of money to entice folks to instal them as well as forcing the "grid" to pay them for the energy they produce..

as for storage cells not sure how many folks have been in Germany homes but there is not place to put a bunch of batteries..

and I'd guess that 90% of the homes that have refrigerators have what most folks would call Dormitory size units.. If that is an indication of the amount of space they have in their homes a bunch of batteries is not happening..


I have explored doing this on my house and having about 350 days a year of full sunlight light I could be energy independent during the day for a measly 45K which would take 23 years to pay back over current electric prices.. As it stand s right now EP electric will only pay me for extra energy at about 25% of what I pay for it..

I'm waiting till it is more affordable.. get a rebate more than there is AND they force EP Elec to pay me more for my investment..

[chadta]

Originally Posted by lonestar

I have explored doing this on my house and having about 350 days a year of full sunlight light I could be energy independent during the day for a measly 45K which would take 23 years to pay back over current electric prices.. As it stand s right now EP electric will only pay me for extra energy at about 25% of what I pay for it..

I'm waiting till it is more affordable.. get a rebate more than there is AND they force EP Elec to pay me more for my investment..

I have 3 guys prepping me a quote right now, ill share them when i get them, we had a discussion the other night becasue a neighbour thinks that the government here pays for it totally, we had to prove the the ROI was quite a few years.

Altho if it was reasonable i would do it.

[chadta]

just got one back now, here's the quote

Site Notes
Orientation: Good: The house has a SE sun exposure.
Shading: Reasonable: There may be some afternoon and morning shading.
Other Notes: We’ve assumed a 10% shading factor for the site conditions below. Further onsite shading analysis will be required.
System Options
Overall Site Efficiency 84%
System Size:5kW-6.25kW(max. Power DC of 20to25modules)
System Cost:-(turnkey, tax incl.) $25,500 - $30,875
Annual Yield:5,065 kWh-6,331 kWh
Annual Revenue:-$2,781$3,476$

So it would pay for itself in 10 years, provided i keep getting triple the going rate for power I generate, we pay about .30 per kWh but solar and wind generators get .80 from the government, thanks to its "buy greeen" plan.

Im actually seriously thinking about this, specially after my august electrical bill of almost 800 bucks.

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by chadta

just got one back now, here's the quote

Site Notes
Orientation: Good: The house has a SE sun exposure.
Shading: Reasonable: There may be some afternoon and morning shading.
Other Notes: We’ve assumed a 10% shading factor for the site conditions below. Further onsite shading analysis will be required.
System Options
Overall Site Efficiency 84%
System Size:5kW-6.25kW(max. Power DC of 20to25modules)
System Cost:-(turnkey, tax incl.) $25,500 - $30,875
Annual Yield:5,065 kWh-6,331 kWh
Annual Revenue:-$2,781$3,476$

So it would pay for itself in 10 years, provided i keep getting triple the going rate for power I generate, we pay about .30 per kWh but solar and wind generators get .80 from the government, thanks to its "buy greeen" plan.

Im actually seriously thinking about this, specially after my august electrical bill of almost 800 bucks.

does this include the battery storage for bad days or nights..

[chadta]

Originally Posted by lonestar

does this include the battery storage for bad days or nights..

No, but since I can sell power to the power company at 3 times what I would pay for it, I would still get a chegue at the end of every month and not a bill.

[Mecklomaniac]

Originally Posted by chadta

just got one back now, here's the quote

Site Notes
Orientation: Good: The house has a SE sun exposure.
Shading: Reasonable: There may be some afternoon and morning shading.
Other Notes: We’ve assumed a 10% shading factor for the site conditions below. Further onsite shading analysis will be required.
System Options
Overall Site Efficiency 84%
System Size:5kW-6.25kW(max. Power DC of 20to25modules)
System Cost:-(turnkey, tax incl.) $25,500 - $30,875
Annual Yield:5,065 kWh-6,331 kWh
Annual Revenue:-$2,781$3,476$

So it would pay for itself in 10 years, provided i keep getting triple the going rate for power I generate, we pay about .30 per kWh but solar and wind generators get .80 from the government, thanks to its "buy greeen" plan.

Im actually seriously thinking about this, specially after my august electrical bill of almost 800 bucks.

I had looked into it a few years back, and at the time the concern for me was the life of the panels. Due to low power rates here (hydro) the payback time was decades, but the expected useful life of the panels was 7 - 10 years.

[Drek]

Originally Posted by lonestar

was in Germany a few weeks ago and marveled at all the SVCs on roofs over there almost all houses have them.. even the farm houses and barns..

However in snow storms well not very effective nor are they on cloudy days and folks that is a lot of the time over there ..

their government mandated it and is paying loads of money to entice folks to instal them as well as forcing the "grid" to pay them for the energy they produce..

as for storage cells not sure how many folks have been in Germany homes but there is not place to put a bunch of batteries..

and I'd guess that 90% of the homes that have refrigerators have what most folks would call Dormitory size units.. If that is an indication of the amount of space they have in their homes a bunch of batteries is not happening..


I have explored doing this on my house and having about 350 days a year of full sunlight light I could be energy independent during the day for a measly 45K which would take 23 years to pay back over current electric prices.. As it stand s right now EP electric will only pay me for extra energy at about 25% of what I pay for it..

I'm waiting till it is more affordable.. get a rebate more than there is AND they force EP Elec to pay me more for my investment..

1. full energy independence shouldn't be the short term goal of residential solar and wind, it needs to be focused on supplementary power to reduce strain on the grid and reliance on nonrenewables which logically will only get more expensive the faster we use them.

2. It is very ****ed up that your utility provider can get away with only paying 25 cents on the dollar for your energy. There needs to be a national requirement for 1:1 buybacks.

3. Obviously banking isn't viable in Europe, but in the U.S. we've got ample room to set up storage options. Regardless, a respectable buy back program would remove a large part of the need.

[Rohirrim]

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.

Just like balancing the budget is more important than civil rights.

America is not a business.

[razorwire77]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.

Ironically, a reliable profit model could be set up around energy that is much more ecologically friendly. Unfortunately, that would require ingenuity and a widespread commitment by all stakeholders (government officials, citizens, etc.)

That ain't happening. At least that's not happening until American/West European lifestyles are drastically impacted by environmental change, food/energy shortages etc.

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by Drek

1. full energy independence shouldn't be the short term goal of residential solar and wind, it needs to be focused on supplementary power to reduce strain on the grid and reliance on nonrenewables which logically will only get more expensive the faster we use them.

2. It is very ****ed up that your utility provider can get away with only paying 25 cents on the dollar for your energy. There needs to be a national requirement for 1:1 buybacks.

3. Obviously banking isn't viable in Europe, but in the U.S. we've got ample room to set up storage options. Regardless, a respectable buy back program would remove a large part of the need.

but even the grid is affected the same way perhaps not as national as now but the effect of the houses in El Paso unless shipped to other cities will not help the grid whatsoever..

the only thing that will hep it is IF every household does this and major factories also if that happens we will still need the grid to feed those aes a=that do not have 350 full sun days a year..

yes it is jacked up at getting $.25 on the dollar for my solar power and hopefully nationally some how that can change.. Then and only then will be putting a full array on the roof make economic sense to me..

But then I may have to take my solar water (pool) panels off the roof to make rooms for them..


as for the storage options of lead acid batteries and that my friend is how they do it is really not viable even in the states as most houses do not have the room to do this also. .

IMO in my lifetime there will issues for low light days as well as night time not currently available for me..

I have recently remodeled and poured in a ton of money for down the road cost savings.. added r33 to the existing insulation in the roof installed double and in some cases triple paned windows and doors sealed this house up like a space capsule.. installed a new natural gas furnace with a 90-95% efficiency rating and next on the agenda is tank-less water hears or maybe even solar units for inside use..

with a few exceptions of CFL lighting every light in the house is LED bought a new LED TV..

all of the above has reduced my energy footprint by about 40%.. at least dollar wise..

I recycle my water from my AC units (swamp coolers) to use in my back yard planters and my front yard is almost waterless save for a few plants near the covered patio. which further reduces Heat and cooling loses..

I get solar heat in the winter and are shaded for it during the summer..

the only thing I can not justify is spending $35,000 to out solar MVC panels on my roof to save me money during the daytime..

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.

Yes in my case it is and I'd guess that 98% of Americans and for that matter the world think that way..

It has to be worth my while to do.. force my provider to give me money back at the rate I pay and the solar panels go on the roof next week.. the pay back for the investment is better than what I currently get in the market or CD's..

Since I like 98% of America are not independently wealthy that will have to do..

I've done my part so far.. by investing about $30,000 in energy savings this past two years..

[Mecklomaniac]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.

That's really the difference in philosophies. Liberals want to force, price increases to make alternatives more attractive, and subsidize alternatives that are financially nonviable.

Conservatives prefer a more laissez-faire approach and let the market decide. Alternatives that can show good value even if a little more expensive can compete. Early adapters help finance the alternatives until the processes can be leaned out the the costs reduced.

Congress critters from both sides don't follow either approach. They use more of a corrupt crony capitalism. Gives us things like carbon credits, and subsidies for ideas that truly should be left to die. How long are we going to subsidize turning food into fuel with ethanol?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-of-votes.html

[Drek]

Originally Posted by lonestar

but even the grid is affected the same way perhaps not as national as now but the effect of the houses in El Paso unless shipped to other cities will not help the grid whatsoever..

And this is why we need a new national smart energy grid. New transmission technology would dramatically reduce transmission costs, and we could easily build a nationwide grid that can share power from one coast to the next.

An electrical engineering professor did a study on this recently and found that the U.S. loses between $50-$100 Billion in production annually due to our shoddy, old energy infrastructure. He also estimated that a full overhaul to a smart grid would cost around $40 Billion.

Yet it still hasn't happened.

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by Mecklomaniac

That's really the difference in philosophies. Liberals want to force, price increases to make alternatives more attractive, and subsidize alternatives that are financially nonviable.

Conservatives prefer a more laissez-faire approach and let the market decide. Alternatives that can show good value even if a little more expensive can compete. Early adapters help finance the alternatives until the processes can be leaned out the the costs reduced.

Congress critters from both sides don't follow either approach. They use more of a corrupt crony capitalism. Gives us things like carbon credits, and subsidies for ideas that truly should be left to die. How long are we going to subsidize turning food into fuel with ethanol?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-of-votes.html

A laissez faire approach would have some merit if it were actually true. But the free market approach doesn't work when the market isn't really free. Once the renewable energy sources get the same government subsidies in their work that the non-renewable energy sources get...THEN if they fail, we can truly say, "well, the market decided..."

Until then, it's lip service and refusal to see the way things truly are. Soon there won't be anything left, and those who put renewable energy before mass profits will be the ones looking down on the rest of the world.

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by Mecklomaniac

That's really the difference in philosophies. Liberals want to force, price increases to make alternatives more attractive, and subsidize alternatives that are financially nonviable.

Conservatives prefer a more laissez-faire approach and let the market decide. Alternatives that can show good value even if a little more expensive can compete. Early adapters help finance the alternatives until the processes can be leaned out the the costs reduced.

Congress critters from both sides don't follow either approach. They use more of a corrupt crony capitalism. Gives us things like carbon credits, and subsidies for ideas that truly should be left to die. How long are we going to subsidize turning food into fuel with ethanol?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-of-votes.html

yep we have problems I'm one of those folks that say let the markets decide while developing the alternatives shutting down coal fired power plants that are moderns is just plain stupid..

not developing more nuclear plants is also plain dumb.. yes I know of the long term storage issues..

giving us options like getting paid for producing kilowatts on our homes would help a bit..

stifling oil, natural gas and coal production is plain stupid..

the only way to make Americans go the other route is to make them affordable..

Germans have been obedient for ever, as the kings through Hitler told the what to do and they just do it..

As we rebuilt their country after the war there was Marshall law for a long time and frankly they have never become free as we know it in the US..

[lonestar]

Originally Posted by houghtam

A laissez faire approach would have some merit if it were actually true. But the free market approach doesn't work when the market isn't really free. Once the renewable energy sources get the same government subsidies in their work that the non-renewable energy sources get...THEN if they fail, we can truly say, "well, the market decided..."

Until then, it's lip service and refusal to see the way things truly are. Soon there won't be anything left, and those who put renewable energy before mass profits will be the ones looking down on the rest of the world.

really not sure what subsidies your talking about for coal, gas and oil?

or should all those dollars put down a rat hole on solar companies not be considered as subsidies..

[lonestar]

I see those huge windmill vanes and generators traveling down I-10 almost daily.. I'm thinking great alternative energy going to be added to the grid..

then last week when I was picking up my dogs from the kennel on the other side of town the Howl a Day inn.

I see two vanes being transported up the road that leads from Mexico...

As I passed them they were clearly labeled Henhco in Mexico,

had to laugh my ass off now knowing that that subsidized company is making the parts for it in Mexico..

[mhgaffney]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.

Well -- the smart people in US industry already understand that energy conservation = higher profits.

Amory Lovins has been laying out the case for what he calls the soft energy path since the 1970s. His case was strong to begin with - and has only gotten stronger. Se the link below.

His win win approach is hard to argue with -- which is why former CIA directors, former US secretaries of state, and current CEOs of large oil companies all endorse his work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHOyfyGwpes

[Fedaykin]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Unfortunately, setting up reliable profit models is more important than saving the planet.

There's a reason even Wal-Mart, bastion of capitalistic greed, is a huge user of alternative energy.



Wal-Mart doesn't give a rats ass about anything but squeezing put the most possible profit.

The "profit problem" with alternative energy is the people in charge profit from dino power.

[tnedator]

Originally Posted by lonestar

was in Germany a few weeks ago and marveled at all the SVCs on roofs over there almost all houses have them.. even the farm houses and barns..

This summer when I was in Germany I was talking to a guy about it and he said that the solar panel program is turning into a nightmare. People who put up the panel are guaranteed a certain rate for any electricity from solar panels on a home or farm building roof.

Unfortunately, this rate is well above the cost of other energy sources. As a result, lots of people installed solar panels, including farmers. In fact, it's so profitable, that many farmers have built barns and other buildings for the SOLE purpose of putting up solar panels. Some of them then use the "barns" to rent space for caravan (RV) storage during the winter or simply leave the barn empty.

To pay for all of this above market solar energy, everyone's electric bill has gone up, and continues to go up as more people/farms put solar panels up. So much so that there is a loud and growing movement demanding that their government renig on the guaranteed solar rates, so that people's electric bills will go back down.