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Old 05-30-2013, 08:16 AM   #1676
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Originally Posted by maher_tyler View Post
Zetterberg is every bit as good imo.
Zetterberg is the one I probably like the most but he just disappears at times. I honestly hold my breath every time Datsyuk has the puck.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:41 AM   #1677
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I am not saying that they arent good. I am looking at their contracts and how they handcuff the team. The cap is dropping quite a bit next year. They are paying Kronwall like a #1/2 D man and he isnt (4.75M/yr). He can hit like a mother but that is it. And Howard isnt bad but the 5.3M long term deal they gave him when he really isnt that proven hurts. That is top 5 goalie money and he isnt top 5.

The only truly elite talent on that roster is Datsyuk.
Only 5 backs had more points than Kronwall, so the idea that he is just a hitter clearly demonstrates how much you know.

5.3 is not top 5, there are currently 9 goaltenders in the league with a caphit higher than 5.3, so it is barely top 10 and he is a top 10 goaltender - this year he ranked 5th for GAA among starters, 9th for save% and 1st in SOs so he is clearly a top 10 goalie.

They have 12 million in cap space next season, they need to resign 4 RFAs and that will leave them with 12 forwards under contract, 7 backs and 2 goalies and about 6 million in cap space to add a 13th forward.... I don't think that will be a problem.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:43 AM   #1678
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Zetterberg is every bit as good imo.
Zetterberg plays a different game. He is not as obviously talented as Datsyuk, Datsyuk can do some things that very few if anyone else can do which makes it easy to see that he is good. Zetterberg plays a much more basic game, but does it very well - the problem for him is that he is asked to play the matchup game so he is pretty much always on the ice against the number 1 line for the other team which is not a situation very conductive for carrying the puck and cycling in the offensive zone.
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Old 05-30-2013, 09:18 AM   #1679
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There's so much wrong with this post, IMO. Kronwall has shown he's a #1/2 D-man this year and got plenty of buzz as a Norris candidate on a team that lost HUGE amounts of man-games to injury. A cap hit of 4.75M for him is perfect. He shows no signs of slowing down and has become the defensive captain, bringing along guys like Ericsson and Kindl, who both improved immensely due in part to Kronwall.
He doesnt make a great first pass out of the zone, needs to work on his positioning and looks to blow people up too often instead of making the sound defensive play. I could care less if he was getting Norris consideration in the media or not. That was just because he started to finally put some points up. He had the worst +/- (-5 in regular season) of all their D and this was on a team that was #7 in 5-on-5 play. How did you like that line change that led to the first goal?

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As for Howard, I don't get your take. Holland can't create a market that isn't there, but can only operate within the market that exists. The Howard deal is perfectly reasonable and adds stability to the team since he's young and has shown he can sustain quality play, including playoffs. Plus, if a young stud (Mrazek?) comes along and is better 2 years from now, it won't be too hard to move Howard with only about 15M left on that deal, if he remains a top 10 goalie. I would've preferred him at 5M but 5.3 isn't out of the question.
You dont know your contract situation very well. He was extended for the next 6 years. The number isnt actually all that terrible which I agree is the market, its the term that is more on Holland. In your scenario, you think they will be able to move him with 4yrs at 5.3M/yr if he continues to show that he isnt a goalie that can single handedly win you games? Keep hoping!

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The key decisions will be with some of the dead wood in Detroit. Guys like Bertuzzi, Drew Miller, Eaves, Filppula, Cola, Cleary, Samuelsson, and Ian White. Really, they may just cut bait on ALL of these guys (maybe keep miller and see if they can sign fil at a reasonable salary or let him walk). The key signing has to be Brunner, IMO. Gotta get him back in Detroit, considering it's only his rookie season and he should get better. My shocker prediction is that Franzen gets bought out and/or Helm retires.
Again, it appears you arent up to speed on these contracts. Filppula, Cleary, Miller, White are already UFA and can walk if they want though I would suspect Cleary and Fippula will be (attempted to be) brought back. But you cant honestly want to buyout Betuzzi, Samuelsson, Colaiacovo, Quincey, Eaves all at the same time. This would be 3.7M and 4.4M in dead money in the next two years all the while the cap is dropping by 6M next year? Some of that has to be kept. I expect it to be Quincey and Colaiacovo.
**edit: I forgot about 2 amnesty buyouts. Would have to think its Bertuzzi and Samuelsson and maybe your outside call on Franzen is making more sense.

A Franzen buyout - though much less painful thanks to that BS structure of 14 years - is still painful in 2017-2020 at ~4M/yr (if I believe the online tools). That indeed is a bold prediction and that lifetime contract that Holland gave him was a beauty.

Helm retires? At 26? Is his injury career threatening? I remember reading he was hoping to come back if they advanced.

Oh and good luck in the East. This lineup will need to be retooled get a lot tougher to survive. But I expect this year will be similar to future years. Fighting to the end of the regular season, barely in or barely out. Most wings fans havent exactly figured how important Lidstrom was. He should get the credit for this run, not Holland.

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Old 05-30-2013, 09:24 AM   #1680
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Only 5 backs had more points than Kronwall, so the idea that he is just a hitter clearly demonstrates how much you know.

5.3 is not top 5, there are currently 9 goaltenders in the league with a caphit higher than 5.3, so it is barely top 10 and he is a top 10 goaltender - this year he ranked 5th for GAA among starters, 9th for save% and 1st in SOs so he is clearly a top 10 goalie.

They have 12 million in cap space next season, they need to resign 4 RFAs and that will leave them with 12 forwards under contract, 7 backs and 2 goalies and about 6 million in cap space to add a 13th forward.... I don't think that will be a problem.
See my later post on the supposed value of Kronwall. I would be plenty happy if you want to consider your top end D situation solved.

That 12M space is with only 19 players under contract. That is without Filppula, Cleary or Brunner resigned and without any buyouts. Next year will be tight.
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Old 05-30-2013, 10:19 AM   #1681
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See my later post on the supposed value of Kronwall. I would be plenty happy if you want to consider your top end D situation solved.

That 12M space is with only 19 players under contract. That is without Filppula, Cleary or Brunner resigned and without any buyouts. Next year will be tight.
+/- is irrelevant as a defensive stat, Paul Martin was +14, Shea Weber, Alex Pietrangelo, Keith Yandle and Drew Doughty were +12 combined. Are you telling me that Paul Martin is a top back and Drew Doughty, Alex Pietrangelo, Keith Yandle and Shea Weber are not as good as Martin?

Come on now, Kronwall is a matchup defenseman who only plays against top lines and as a result his +/- will suffer, the same is true for Weber, Pietrangelo and Doughty who all play almost exclusive against the best opposition and on the power play, both situations that are not conductive for great +/-. Meanwhile Kindl and Quincey who always play against 2nd and 3rd lines with Datsyuk up front are going to have good +/- because of the matchups they face.

Cleary will be allowed to walk so he is irrelevant. The Wings have 2 free buyouts left since they didn't use any last season so technically both Bertuzzi and Samuelson could be bought out without it costing a dime against the cap. Anderson, Nyquist, Smith and Kindl are RFAs and will be brought back, on average I would their contracts at around 1.5 million per which takes away about 6 of 12 million. That brings the roster up to 21 with 6 million in space, that 6 million should easy fit both Brunner and Filppula (who didn't do himself any favours from a contract negotiation perspective with his play this season and playoffs). On top of that Datsyuk comes off the books next season along with Bertuzzi and Samuelson, Quincey, Ericsson and Cola (which combines for nearly 20 million in cap savings).
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Old 05-30-2013, 10:21 AM   #1682
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Paul Martin was very good this year, glyden. He looked like the NJ Paul Martin.....total reversal of last year.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:01 AM   #1683
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+/- is irrelevant as a defensive stat, Paul Martin was +14, Shea Weber, Alex Pietrangelo, Keith Yandle and Drew Doughty were +12 combined. Are you telling me that Paul Martin is a top back and Drew Doughty, Alex Pietrangelo, Keith Yandle and Shea Weber are not as good as Martin?

Come on now, Kronwall is a matchup defenseman who only plays against top lines and as a result his +/- will suffer, the same is true for Weber, Pietrangelo and Doughty who all play almost exclusive against the best opposition and on the power play, both situations that are not conductive for great +/-. Meanwhile Kindl and Quincey who always play against 2nd and 3rd lines with Datsyuk up front are going to have good +/- because of the matchups they face.

Cleary will be allowed to walk so he is irrelevant. The Wings have 2 free buyouts left since they didn't use any last season so technically both Bertuzzi and Samuelson could be bought out without it costing a dime against the cap. Anderson, Nyquist, Smith and Kindl are RFAs and will be brought back, on average I would their contracts at around 1.5 million per which takes away about 6 of 12 million. That brings the roster up to 21 with 6 million in space, that 6 million should easy fit both Brunner and Filppula (who didn't do himself any favours from a contract negotiation perspective with his play this season and playoffs). On top of that Datsyuk comes off the books next season along with Bertuzzi and Samuelson, Quincey, Ericsson and Cola (which combines for nearly 20 million in cap savings).
Fair points and a good take.

My bottom line point is that I wouldnt be satisfied with him as my #1 D and my top D on the PP. I could live with him in the top pair assuming he was paired right. I look at him as a better 2nd pair type of guy. And based on that, his salary isn't commensurate with that.

Of all the guys coming off the books in future years, I would think you would want to lock up Datsyuk. He is still elite and I would think he will be at that level for a least 3-5 more years. The going rate for elite talent is near $10M. Will he take a hometown discount to stay in Detroit? Certainly they cant afford $10M without the cap growing significantly. You would have to think there is someone out there willing to pay top $$.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:21 AM   #1684
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It was a great game, one that had to go to OT just to make it even more epic even if the late goal should have counted and if anything Chicago should have been on the power play for the rest of the regulation time.
You know I thought the same thing here. Wasn't mentioned on the broadcast but that whole situation was pretty one sided so the fact that it was a matching minor instead of just one on Detroit would have negated all of this.

I guessing winning game 7 twice was pretty sweet.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:58 AM   #1685
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You know I thought the same thing here. Wasn't mentioned on the broadcast but that whole situation was pretty one sided so the fact that it was a matching minor instead of just one on Detroit would have negated all of this.

I guessing winning game 7 twice was pretty sweet.
Yes it was, I was on the phone with my friend who as at the game his whole way home. He was amped up.

I liked the Hawks chances at home if they could push it to game 7. That quick goal to start the 3rd was unsettling but they fought all the harder. A very good memorable series.
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Old 05-30-2013, 04:46 PM   #1686
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Fair points and a good take.

My bottom line point is that I wouldnt be satisfied with him as my #1 D and my top D on the PP. I could live with him in the top pair assuming he was paired right. I look at him as a better 2nd pair type of guy. And based on that, his salary isn't commensurate with that.

Of all the guys coming off the books in future years, I would think you would want to lock up Datsyuk. He is still elite and I would think he will be at that level for a least 3-5 more years. The going rate for elite talent is near $10M. Will he take a hometown discount to stay in Detroit? Certainly they cant afford $10M without the cap growing significantly. You would have to think there is someone out there willing to pay top $$.
I agree that Kronwall is not a top number 1 D, but his cap hit is not too bad, he has 25th highest cap hit among D in the league behind guys like Paul Martin, Matt Carle, James Wisniewski, Dennis Wideman and Tyler Myers. Obviously Holland agrees since he went after Suter very heavily last year, but top number 1 D doesn't hang on trees. I do think Kronwall is a solid 1st pair guy, but he does need a good partner.

As for Datsyuk, the only top forward who has signed a big deal after the age of 30 is Shane Doan. I would imagine Datsyuk's level should be around what he is earning now, maybe a bit more. Given his age and the fact that there seems to be a general feeling that he doesn't want to remain in the States for ever, I would say something like 4 years at 25-30 million would be what he is looking at - it is possible a KHL team will go over top though. Datsyuk has always said he will only play in Russia or Detroit.
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Old 05-30-2013, 04:47 PM   #1687
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Paul Martin was very good this year, glyden. He looked like the NJ Paul Martin.....total reversal of last year.
NJ Paul Martin is still not as good as Doughty, Weber, Yandle or Pietrangelo.
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Old 05-30-2013, 04:59 PM   #1688
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Regehr signs a contract extension with the Kings. 2 years, 6 mil.

That's a 3 mil cap hit for the Kings, he was making over 4 mil.
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:11 PM   #1689
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Regehr signs a contract extension with the Kings. 2 years, 6 mil.

That's a 3 mil cap hit for the Kings, he was making over 4 mil.
Surely it is because he has massive ears he keeps making that kind of money.
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:25 PM   #1690
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NJ Paul Martin is still not as good as Doughty, Weber, Yandle or Pietrangelo.
I know although a few of them had off years (Weber).
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:35 PM   #1691
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I know although a few of them had off years (Weber).
Weber is more a casualty of the steadily decreasing talent he is playing with - that preds team is bleeding talent in a big way. Other than Rinne that team is a who is who of players who belong in the AHL.
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:43 PM   #1692
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I know although a few of them had off years (Weber).
he's the best player on his team and signed to a ridiculous contract because he wanted out of Nash. his down year is still pretty damn good.
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:51 PM   #1693
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Surely it is because he has massive ears he keeps making that kind of money.
He's not elite by any means, but his locker room presence, leadership, and toughness are hard to find in the NHL. It's a good contract and covers the Kings rear end in case Scuderi walks. Don't want to end up with a soft D corp.
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:52 PM   #1694
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By the way it looks like the Rangers are considering a bunch of characters for their next Head Coach:

Marc Crawford
Mark Messier
Alain Vigneault
Lindy Ruff
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:14 PM   #1695
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By the way it looks like the Rangers are considering a bunch of characters for their next Head Coach:

Marc Crawford
Mark Messier
Alain Vigneault
Lindy Ruff
AV is the only one that would worry me if i was a EC team's fan.
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:34 PM   #1696
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By the way it looks like the Rangers are considering a bunch of characters for their next Head Coach:

Marc Crawford
Mark Messier
Alain Vigneault
Lindy Ruff
It's not going to be Ruff or Crawford. I doubt Mess as well. I think AV, Eakins, or someone else.
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:35 PM   #1697
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AV is the only one that would worry me if i was a EC team's fan.
Funny, AV is someone I don't want. I'd take Boucher or Eakins over him. I think Tippets staying put.
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:46 PM   #1698
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It's not going to be Ruff or Crawford. I doubt Mess as well. I think AV, Eakins, or someone else.
Melrose?
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:04 PM   #1699
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Funny, AV is someone I don't want. I'd take Boucher or Eakins over him. I think Tippets staying put.
Eakins or AV would be the ideal fits for that team. Boucher is meh.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:30 PM   #1700
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He's not elite by any means, but his locker room presence, leadership, and toughness are hard to find in the NHL. It's a good contract and covers the Kings rear end in case Scuderi walks. Don't want to end up with a soft D corp.
He has Grit like the team motto.. We needed a replacement for Mitchell being out this long. I wonder if the guys ever coming back. He was a key player in winning the cup last year...Glad Greene is back, we needed his strength back on D.
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