OT- Oscar Pistorius is it a fair race ? - Page 2 - The Orange Mane

broncocalijohn · 08-04-2012, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by missingnumber7

Really

I guess all the testing that the international T&F Community did to see if he gained an advantage was for not becuase Cutthemdown says he gained an advantage. Its a 400M race...dude still needs to have the aerobic ability to run that distance at that speed. Hats off to him and a large step for athletes with disabilities and people with disabilities in general.

How could they scientifically know? We all run with feet, tendons, muscles, knee caps, etc. He runs with light carbon fibers or whatever thye use. It is apples and oranges. How anyone thinks this is the same is nuts. He runs in the paralympics and kicks ass, he competes with other people with the same prosethetics. Compare apples to apples.

tsiguy96 · 08-04-2012, 08:58 PM

science gave him an ability that he was not born with, and he is being allowed to compete. its a great story and the guy is a beast runner, i dont think anyone is trying to take anything away from him in terms of ability, but at the end of the day its not the same.

Drek · 08-05-2012, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncocalijohn

How could they scientifically know? We all run with feet, tendons, muscles, knee caps, etc. He runs with light carbon fibers or whatever thye use. It is apples and oranges. How anyone thinks this is the same is nuts. He runs in the paralympics and kicks ass, he competes with other people with the same prosethetics. Compare apples to apples.

So what you're really saying here is:

Physics - How do it work?

Quoydogs · 08-05-2012, 08:27 AM

See I'm just fine with it until the point he is fast enough to win and how fair is that ? You will never truly know if it was because we attached artificial parts to a human. The Key word here is Artificial. When all the runners are 100% human there is no doubt. But once something like this artificial leg comes out, that creates doubt. Point being they have high speed camera's that shoot film at 30,000 frames per second so they can wipe out any doubt who crosses the finish line first. They drug test you before and after the event. ect..... They do all this so that we can know who the real winner is and a lot of that comes from getting rid of any doubt and you can't do that when the word artificial comes into play.

That being said the guy is amazing. I love that fact that he looked his disability in the face and said **** YOU !!!

Pontius Pirate · 08-05-2012, 09:21 AM

Literally everyone (no one) is wondering whether cutting off their legs will give them an advantage over other healthy Olympic runners

Broncos4tw · 08-05-2012, 10:38 AM

He was not born with no legs, but they were amputated when he was young (11 months I think). And I'll believe a group that studied in depth over a bunch of sports fans who think they see him "not running as hard" or think they detect "more spring." I imagine he loses some inertia just trying to balance on those suckers.

houghtam · 08-05-2012, 11:03 AM

As some of you know, I went to Germany 8 years ago to serve as a translator for my brother's back surgery. They did a dual-level replacement of a couple of his discs in his lower back. The surgeon was telling us that the design of the discs allowed for 20% more lateral mobility and something like 40% more "twist" ability, whatever that's called. Basically you're able to twist the discs an additional 20 degrees in either direction.

Anyway, I asked him what's to stop a millionaire athlete from just having all his discs replaced to give him more mobility and make him a better athlete?

Hey, did you guys know that the German word for "idiot" is "idiot"?

broncocalijohn · 08-05-2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drek

So what you're really saying here is:

Physics - How do it work?

So you are saying without a shadow of doubt that the prosthetics have absolutely no advantage over human anatomy? I say when we have a case study of athletes that end up being amputated with both legs for this experiment, we will know the answer. It isn't happening anytime soon. Seems when we want to make something better, it comes with mechanics. I watched 6 million dollar man. They weren't stealing any human parts for his bionic arm.

MagicHef · 08-05-2012, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncocalijohn

So you are saying without a shadow of doubt that the prosthetics have absolutely no advantage over human anatomy? I say when we have a case study of athletes that end up being amputated with both legs for this experiment, we will know the answer. It isn't happening anytime soon. Seems when we want to make something better, it comes with mechanics. I watched 6 million dollar man. They weren't stealing any human parts for his bionic arm.

An advantage over whose human anatomy? No matter how much I train, I will never be able to swim as well as Phelps, because I do not have his arm length or foot size. Everyone is built differently, and since there's no baseline for human performance, it's pretty difficult to say that this guy is better with his prosthetic legs than he would be without.

Why is this guy so much better than other runners with these prosthetics? Could it be that he's just a really good athlete?

broncocalijohn · 08-05-2012, 02:17 PM

^^ I thin Oscar is a bonafide athlete and the other guys are not so much an athlete in the light of an Olympian. There is also much less competition. Oscar knows how to use his "running" legs to his strengths and advantages.

Pontius Pirate · 08-05-2012, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncocalijohn

So you are saying without a shadow of doubt that the prosthetics have absolutely no advantage over human anatomy? I say when we have a case study of athletes that end up being amputated with both legs for this experiment, we will know the answer. It isn't happening anytime soon. Seems when we want to make something better, it comes with mechanics. I watched 6 million dollar man. They weren't stealing any human parts for his bionic arm.

On behalf of handicapped people around the globe: please shut the **** up.

FISH · 08-05-2012, 02:45 PM

He doesn't have to deal with lower leg injuries, pain and fatigue.

That said...I'm sure he has his own pains and fatigue to deal with that differs from others

Wes Mantooth · 08-05-2012, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FISH

He doesn't have to deal with lower leg injuries, pain and fatigue.

That said...I'm sure he has his own pains and fatigue to deal with that differs from others

advantage how? He has no legs bro. I don't understand how this could be conceived as an advantage. He has no legs.

By the way, he has no legs.

Kaylore · 08-05-2012, 03:26 PM

Do you any of you know anyone who has had to use prosthetic legs? I do. Basically unless someone grew up from a very young age using them, as this man his, there is no way they could race in them, let alone race in the Olympics. Since he has no calf muscle, his strength in his lower leg is capped at whatever the spring load is for those things. He has no muscle control of his foot. The fact that he is even able race as fast as he can is in itself amazing. I can't believe people actually think "it's easy" and that he is getting an unfair advantage.

Wes Mantooth · 08-05-2012, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylore

Do you any of you know anyone who has had to use prosthetic legs? I do. Basically unless someone grew up from a very young age using them, as this man his, there is no way they could race in them, let alone race in the Olympics. Since he has no calf muscle, his strength in his lower leg is capped at whatever the spring load is for those things. He has no muscle control of his foot. The fact that he is even able race as fast as he can is in itself amazing. I can't believe people actually think "it's easy" and that he is getting an unfair advantage.

Right on.

chadta · 08-05-2012, 08:24 PM

I thought the whole point of special Olympics was to give the special athletes a shot. If this guy can do it without the lower competition than more power to him.

FISH · 08-05-2012, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth

advantage how? He has no legs bro. I don't understand how this could be conceived as an advantage. He has no legs.

By the way, he has no legs.

I wasn't actually saying it was an advantage....I can only imagine how uncomfortable those may be and the wear and tear they may cause from where they are attached and all the way up the body.

While they may only give as much spring as a normal foot the wearer still does not have to deal with the pain and fatigue in those lower limbs...which makes it different.....better? I sincerely doubt it but who knows. While he may be absent the specific pain of perhaps his calf cramping or his arch hurting that may plague him physically and mentally...I'm sure he has a crop of pains and issues that the others don't have to deal with.

BroncoBeavis · 08-05-2012, 08:55 PM

The Science was long ago settled.

Unfair.

Quoydogs · 08-05-2012, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBF1

Worst thread in a month.

Just watched a 30 minute special on prime time television about this. I agree with you people must not be interested in it at all.

Turd_Ferguson · 08-05-2012, 10:01 PM

Really impossible to say if the artificial legs give him an advantage or not... He was born without legs, so its impossible to compare times he may have had with actual legs as compared to with artificial legs... I watched him tonight, and he got dead last in his semi final, so its really a non issue. I think its an amazing story, and he seems to be a pretty inspirational guy. I'm glad he did it. I saw the MIT guy that designed pistorius' legs and he had some "bionic" legs that were amazing. Crazy to think that we are living in a time in which we are on the threshhold of doing things that we saw in Star Wars growing up and thought they were impossible and now are actually happening. Incredible...

ol#7 · 08-06-2012, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turd_Ferguson

Really impossible to say if the artificial legs give him an advantage or not... He was born without legs, so its impossible to compare times he may have had with actual legs as compared to with artificial legs... I watched him tonight, and he got dead last in his semi final, so its really a non issue. I think its an amazing story, and he seems to be a pretty inspirational guy. I'm glad he did it. I saw the MIT guy that designed pistorius' legs and he had some "bionic" legs that were amazing. Crazy to think that we are living in a time in which we are on the threshhold of doing things that we saw in Star Wars growing up and thought they were impossible and now are actually happening. Incredible...

This does lead to an interesting point, is there an advantage that can be gained by improving the technology that goes into his legs at some future point that would provide an unfair advantage?

He is far from being the athlete from his own country with the biggest unfair advantage though (I dont think he has an advantage at the moment btw). That dude Semyana Castor is running in the womens 800m and has testicles that never dropped. That is a pretty big advantage. The dude makes her own testosterone.

broncocalijohn · 08-06-2012, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pontius Pirate

On behalf of handicapped people around the globe: please shut the **** up.

No, I will not. Just because I believe a possible advantage can be had by these special legs doesn't make me insensitive to their situation. THese legs are not built for everyday use. They are used for running. I will repeat, until we have a case study of both usuage from the same participants, we will not fully understand the advantage (if there is one). This will probably never happen as the cases will be such a small sample.
Oscar has been able to master the use of them and is an athlete himself. We just cant have a definite answer (yet) based on case study.

Just because some can publically speak out on a possible advantage, doesnt make us insensitive. Many just don't want to say anything because of the hand those athletes have been handed to them.

houghtam · 08-06-2012, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncocalijohn

No, I will not. Just because I believe a possible advantage can be had by these special legs doesn't make me insensitive to their situation. THese legs are not built for everyday use. They are used for running. I will repeat, until we have a case study of both usuage from the same participants, we will not fully understand the advantage (if there is one). This will probably never happen as the cases will be such a small sample.
Oscar has been able to master the use of them and is an athlete himself. We just cant have a definite answer (yet) based on case study.

Just because some can publically speak out on a possible advantage, doesnt make us insensitive. Many just don't want to say anything because of the hand those athletes have been handed to them.

Feel free to whine all you want, but it looks like the people who actually make decisions, and you know, matter, disagree with you.

They investigated it, and they have no problem with it.

"How can they scientifically know?" Really? I'm guessing that the people who are able to "scientifically know" whether someone is doping can also use science (science!) to figure out if someone with prosthetic legs gains a competitive advantage...or at least they have a better idea than you, a guy behind a keyboard.

Houshyamama · 08-06-2012, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason in LA

I'd say that at this point, because he's the only one, it's hard to say that there is an advantage. Seeing that there are many double amputation who run with artificial limbs, and he's the only one who has made it this far, it's hard to see this as an advantage. Now, if there are like 10 of these guys at the next Olympics, then it would seem like this is an advantage. And what happens if a runner without an amputation uses this?

So at this point we really don't know.

Many? Define many. If you total them all up across the US it might seem like "many", but as a percentage of the population they are VERY few. Carry on.

RaiderH8r · 08-06-2012, 09:47 AM

This is really happening? The dude. Has. No. Legs. Having no legs as a runner seems like a distinct disadvantage. The dude is literally missing roughly 50% of the muscle groups necessary for everybody else to run and his "spring loaded magic legs" are somehow an advantage? GTFO. There is no robotic mechanism involved, there are no hydraulics involved. They are there for balance FFS. You want a case study into the advantages of running without legs? He is literally one in millions with prostheses who have made the cut into the Olympics. There. No. Advantage.

This is not even close to a debate. This is absurdity masquerading as a debate.

08-05-2012, 08:27 AM	#29
Quoydogs Who's gonna be next? I'm too stupid to put an avatar up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Portland OR Posts: 2,506 Adopt-a-Bronco: Eddie Royal	See I'm just fine with it until the point he is fast enough to win and how fair is that ? You will never truly know if it was because we attached artificial parts to a human. The Key word here is Artificial. When all the runners are 100% human there is no doubt. But once something like this artificial leg comes out, that creates doubt. Point being they have high speed camera's that shoot film at 30,000 frames per second so they can wipe out any doubt who crosses the finish line first. They drug test you before and after the event. ect..... They do all this so that we can know who the real winner is and a lot of that comes from getting rid of any doubt and you can't do that when the word artificial comes into play. That being said the guy is amazing. I love that fact that he looked his disability in the face and said **** YOU !!! Last edited by Quoydogs; 08-05-2012 at 08:31 AM..

08-05-2012, 02:45 PM	#37
FISH Seasoned Veteran New to the Forum Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 362 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	He doesn't have to deal with lower leg injuries, pain and fatigue. That said...I'm sure he has his own pains and fatigue to deal with that differs from others Last edited by FISH; 08-05-2012 at 02:48 PM..

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08-04-2012, 08:58 PM	#27
tsiguy96 Ring of Famer New to the Forum Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12,559 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	science gave him an ability that he was not born with, and he is being allowed to compete. its a great story and the guy is a beast runner, i dont think anyone is trying to take anything away from him in terms of ability, but at the end of the day its not the same.

08-05-2012, 09:21 AM	#30
Pontius Pirate Tampons are for pussies Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: 'Nam Posts: 1,796	Literally everyone (no one) is wondering whether cutting off their legs will give them an advantage over other healthy Olympic runners

08-05-2012, 10:38 AM	#31
Broncos4tw Ring of Famer Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,458	He was not born with no legs, but they were amputated when he was young (11 months I think). And I'll believe a group that studied in depth over a bunch of sports fans who think they see him "not running as hard" or think they detect "more spring." I imagine he loses some inertia just trying to balance on those suckers.

08-05-2012, 11:03 AM	#32
houghtam WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION MethWolfeAlliance Member #11001001 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Lansing, MI Posts: 5,033 Adopt-a-Bronco: Demon Eagles	As some of you know, I went to Germany 8 years ago to serve as a translator for my brother's back surgery. They did a dual-level replacement of a couple of his discs in his lower back. The surgeon was telling us that the design of the discs allowed for 20% more lateral mobility and something like 40% more "twist" ability, whatever that's called. Basically you're able to twist the discs an additional 20 degrees in either direction. Anyway, I asked him what's to stop a millionaire athlete from just having all his discs replaced to give him more mobility and make him a better athlete? Hey, did you guys know that the German word for "idiot" is "idiot"?

08-05-2012, 02:17 PM	#35
broncocalijohn Famer of Rings My Dog Richard Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Lake Forest, Orange County, Calif. Posts: 18,476 Adopt-a-Bronco: Simon Fletcher	^^ I thin Oscar is a bonafide athlete and the other guys are not so much an athlete in the light of an Olympian. There is also much less competition. Oscar knows how to use his "running" legs to his strengths and advantages.

08-05-2012, 03:26 PM	#39
Kaylore 6-37, Raider fans. Yummy birds and snow! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ceti Alpha V Posts: 41,074 Adopt-a-Bronco: Wesley Duke	Do you any of you know anyone who has had to use prosthetic legs? I do. Basically unless someone grew up from a very young age using them, as this man his, there is no way they could race in them, let alone race in the Olympics. Since he has no calf muscle, his strength in his lower leg is capped at whatever the spring load is for those things. He has no muscle control of his foot. The fact that he is even able race as fast as he can is in itself amazing. I can't believe people actually think "it's easy" and that he is getting an unfair advantage.

08-05-2012, 08:24 PM	#41
chadta Atomic Meatball Keeper Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Hamilton, Ontario Posts: 2,837 Adopt-a-Bronco: The Mc Rib	I thought the whole point of special Olympics was to give the special athletes a shot. If this guy can do it without the lower competition than more power to him.

08-05-2012, 08:55 PM	#43
BroncoBeavis Just Draughted Lupus Methylphenthylaminus? Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,938	The Science was long ago settled. Unfair.

08-05-2012, 10:01 PM	#45
Turd_Ferguson Ring of Famer Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: South Dakota Posts: 1,157 Adopt-a-Bronco: Eric Decker	Really impossible to say if the artificial legs give him an advantage or not... He was born without legs, so its impossible to compare times he may have had with actual legs as compared to with artificial legs... I watched him tonight, and he got dead last in his semi final, so its really a non issue. I think its an amazing story, and he seems to be a pretty inspirational guy. I'm glad he did it. I saw the MIT guy that designed pistorius' legs and he had some "bionic" legs that were amazing. Crazy to think that we are living in a time in which we are on the threshhold of doing things that we saw in Star Wars growing up and thought they were impossible and now are actually happening. Incredible...

08-06-2012, 09:47 AM	#50
RaiderH8r In The Bag Don't worry. Nobody's listening. Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Meth Alley Posts: 9,926 Adopt-a-Bronco: MethWolfe	This is really happening? The dude. Has. No. Legs. Having no legs as a runner seems like a distinct disadvantage. The dude is literally missing roughly 50% of the muscle groups necessary for everybody else to run and his "spring loaded magic legs" are somehow an advantage? GTFO. There is no robotic mechanism involved, there are no hydraulics involved. They are there for balance FFS. You want a case study into the advantages of running without legs? He is literally one in millions with prostheses who have made the cut into the Olympics. There. No. Advantage. This is not even close to a debate. This is absurdity masquerading as a debate.