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Old 04-23-2012, 08:32 PM   #1
houghtam
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Default SAFE California: Death Penalty in CA to be revisited on November ballot

http://www.safecalifornia.org/home

I know there's already a politics thread, so merge it if you have to.

This is an issue that's very important to me, so I just had to post it up here.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:37 PM   #2
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I'm pro-death penalty, but anti-enforcement. Meaning I agree (in principle) that there are crimes that are so heinous that death should be the penalty for them.

However, I believe that the most heinous crime a people can commit is to put someone to death who was innocent. Our justice system is demonstrably flawed in that regard. Until we can find a perfect way to ascertain guilt, the death penalty should be off the table. At the very least the burden of proof should be so incredibly high that it is virtually unusable.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:45 PM   #3
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I'm pro-death penalty, but anti-enforcement. Meaning I agree (in principle) that there are crimes that are so heinous that death should be the penalty for them.

However, I believe that the most heinous crime a people can commit is to put someone to death who was innocent. Our justice system is demonstrably flawed in that regard. Until we can find a perfect way to ascertain guilt, the death penalty should be off the table. At the very least the burden of proof should be so incredibly high that it is virtually unusable.
I'm anti-death penalty for those reasons and more. There's nothing that the death penalty (in its current and any realistic form) can solve that life without parole cannot, and it's WAY more expensive to carry out. That narrows the death penalty down to being nothing more than vengeance, IMO.

I also don't think human beings, a society, a government, or a judicial system have the right to take a human life.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:53 PM   #4
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I'm anti-death penalty for those reasons and more. There's nothing that the death penalty (in its current and any realistic form) can solve that life without parole cannot, and it's WAY more expensive to carry out. That narrows the death penalty down to being nothing more than vengeance, IMO.

I also don't think human beings, a society, a government, or a judicial system have the right to take a human life.
I do. There are evil people in this world that deserve far worse than prison, and frankly, far worse than death.

Tax payers shouldnt be footing the bill for even meager sustenance for molesters, rapists, serial killers, terrorists, etc when bullets are a matters of pennies.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:54 PM   #5
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I do. There are evil people in this world that deserve far worse than prison, and frankly, far worse than death.

Tax payers shouldnt be footing the bill for even meager sustenance for molesters, rapists, serial killers, terrorists, etc when bullets are a matters of pennies.
Do you mind putting innocent people to death? Serious question.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:56 PM   #6
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Do you mind putting innocent people to death? Serious question.
Of course. I think that fear is EXTREMELY over-blown though. And frankly, with the advancements made in scientific support for law enforcement, we go WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY beyond "reasonable doubt" these days.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:58 PM   #7
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Do you mind putting innocent people to death? Serious question.
Do you mind putting innocent people in prison for life without parole? With no special interest groups funded to try and endlessly appeal? Those guys get put away and no, there's not anyone trying to endlessly prove their innocence.

Erroneous conviction is a great wrong in and of itself. But the inherent risk of error in any system shouldn't negate justice in any case.

Some crimes warrant death as punishment.

If we can tolerate that there will be innocent children inevitably killed as "collateral damage" in war, we ought to be able to function with the death penalty on practical grounds.

To the person who says "It is immoral to take a life, and we should not do it no matter the practicalities," I say "good argument, and good for you." That conundrum we will just have to decide by the political process, as power is vested in the people.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:06 PM   #8
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To the person who says "It is immoral to take a life, and we should not do it no matter the practicalities," I say "good argument, and good for you." That conundrum we will just have to decide by the political process, as power is vested in the people.
Not trying to start a war here, but what, exactly, are the "practicalities" of the death penalty in any reasonable form it could take in our justice system? Let's face it, there will never be a "oh you just got convicted and sentenced to death, please follow me to this room over here" Death Penalty in the US. Ever. That means it is exponentially more expensive to put someone to death than to house them, away from society and unable to harm anyone else, until they die.

Unless you mean "practicality" as in vengeance. Rev says some people deserve to die. "Deserve" to me sounds like vengeance, and IMO that's not a sound basis for a justice system in any respect.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:08 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by enjolras View Post
I'm pro-death penalty, but anti-enforcement. Meaning I agree (in principle) that there are crimes that are so heinous that death should be the penalty for them.

However, I believe that the most heinous crime a people can commit is to put someone to death who was innocent. Our justice system is demonstrably flawed in that regard. Until we can find a perfect way to ascertain guilt, the death penalty should be off the table. At the very least the burden of proof should be so incredibly high that it is virtually unusable.
That is kinda how I feel about weed.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:10 PM   #10
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The problem with the death penalty is that too many of those sitting on death row aren't dead.....

Advancements in forensic science have overturned convictions of prisoners.....and those same advancements have helped vastly reduced the numbers of wrongful convictions.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:10 PM   #11
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Not trying to start a war here, but what, exactly, are the "practicalities" of the death penalty in any reasonable form it could take in our justice system? Let's face it, there will never be a "oh you just got convicted and sentenced to death, please follow me to this room over here" Death Penalty in the US. Ever. That means it is exponentially more expensive to put someone to death than to house them, away from society and unable to harm anyone else, until they die.

Unless you mean "practicality" as in vengeance. Rev says some people deserve to die. "Deserve" to me sounds like vengeance, and IMO that's not a sound basis for a justice system in any respect.
Timothy McVie proved that the justice system can get it right.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:14 PM   #12
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i am all for the death penalty, in fact i think america's legal system is too pussified. if you are sentenced to death i think the state should get on the ball and kill that person right away. none of this appeals for decades crap. just you were sentenced, what would you like for your last meal and flip the switch. do it over a weekend.

also get rid of the guilty by reason of insanity crap. you're guilty, who gives a **** if you were crazy. you are dangerous and need to be taken care of.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:16 PM   #13
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Timothy McVie proved that the justice system can get it right.
I respectfully disagree.

The only thing it solved was satisfying those who wanted to see him die.

It did not prevent him from committing future crimes any more than life in prison would have.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:16 PM   #14
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Not trying to start a war here, but what, exactly, are the "practicalities" of the death penalty in any reasonable form it could take in our justice system? Let's face it, there will never be a "oh you just got convicted and sentenced to death, please follow me to this room over here" Death Penalty in the US. Ever. That means it is exponentially more expensive to put someone to death than to house them, away from society and unable to harm anyone else, until they die.

Unless you mean "practicality" as in vengeance. Rev says some people deserve to die. "Deserve" to me sounds like vengeance, and IMO that's not a sound basis for a justice system in any respect.
"Vengeance" is more than a "basis for a justice system" mi amigo. It's the foundation.

Boom. Just dropped some "Code of Hammurabi" history on ya.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:19 PM   #15
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I respectfully disagree.

The only thing it solved was satisfying those who wanted to see him die.

It did not prevent him from committing future crimes any more than life in prison would have.
http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/laomenu...t.aspx?catid=3

Adjust that to current $ and we're probably talking 55k a year for these animals.

Even a SHORT life in prison sentence of 20 years is 1.1 MILLION dollars of tax payer money.

You talk about respecting life... but respect is earned. When someone won't respect the life of someone else, they don't deserve any better.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:21 PM   #16
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"Vengeance" is more than a "basis for a justice system" mi amigo. It's the foundation.

Boom. Just dropped some "Code of Hammurabi" history on ya.
Remind me what happened to the ancient Babylonians again?
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:23 PM   #17
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I respectfully disagree.

The only thing it solved was satisfying those who wanted to see him die.

It did not prevent him from committing future crimes any more than life in prison would have.
Inmates continue to perform criminal activities from prison all the time. The guy was responsible for the bombing, they gathered proof, tried him, put him to death.

There was no doubt what he was trying to accomplish. I feel safer with him gone.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:23 PM   #18
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I do. There are evil people in this world that deserve far worse than prison, and frankly, far worse than death.

Tax payers shouldnt be footing the bill for even meager sustenance for molesters, rapists, serial killers, terrorists, etc when bullets are a matters of pennies.
Bingo

We've wasted billions on the collective scum of humanity.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:24 PM   #19
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Remind me what happened to the ancient Babylonians again?
Well that's an awful rebuttal...
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:24 PM   #20
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http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/laomenu...t.aspx?catid=3

Adjust that to current $ and we're probably talking 55k a year for these animals.

Even a SHORT life in prison sentence of 20 years is 1.1 MILLION dollars of tax payer money.

You talk about respecting life... but respect is earned. When someone won't respect the life of someone else, they don't deserve any better.
Among their findings to be published next week in the Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review:

- The state's 714 death row prisoners cost $184 million more per year than those sentenced to life
in prison without the possibility of parole.

- A death penalty prosecution costs up to 20 times as much as a life-without-parole case.

- The least expensive death penalty trial costs $1.1 million more than the most expensive lifewithout-
parole case.

- Jury selection in a capital case runs three to four weeks longer and costs $200,000 more than in
life-without-parole cases.

- The state pays up to $300,000 for attorneys to represent each capital inmate on appeal.

- The heightened security practices mandated for death row inmates added $100,663 to the cost of
incarcerating each capital prisoner last year, for a total of $72 million.

http://www.safecalifornia.org/downlo...ostArticle.pdf
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:27 PM   #21
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Among their findings to be published next week in the Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review:

- The state's 714 death row prisoners cost $184 million more per year than those sentenced to life
in prison without the possibility of parole.

- A death penalty prosecution costs up to 20 times as much as a life-without-parole case.

- The least expensive death penalty trial costs $1.1 million more than the most expensive lifewithout-
parole case.

- Jury selection in a capital case runs three to four weeks longer and costs $200,000 more than in
life-without-parole cases.

- The state pays up to $300,000 for attorneys to represent each capital inmate on appeal.

- The heightened security practices mandated for death row inmates added $100,663 to the cost of
incarcerating each capital prisoner last year, for a total of $72 million.

http://www.safecalifornia.org/downlo...ostArticle.pdf
There's a reason crime is so low in the Middle East (granted they use torture too).

If peddling coke or armed robbery meant the death penalty you'd see a severe drop off in this type of ****.

Also, we need to speed up the death penalty. Years of waiting is retarded.

Last edited by UberBroncoMan; 04-23-2012 at 09:29 PM..
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houghtam View Post
Among their findings to be published next week in the Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review:

- The state's 714 death row prisoners cost $184 million more per year than those sentenced to life
in prison without the possibility of parole.

- A death penalty prosecution costs up to 20 times as much as a life-without-parole case.

- The least expensive death penalty trial costs $1.1 million more than the most expensive lifewithout-
parole case.

- Jury selection in a capital case runs three to four weeks longer and costs $200,000 more than in
life-without-parole cases.

- The state pays up to $300,000 for attorneys to represent each capital inmate on appeal.

- The heightened security practices mandated for death row inmates added $100,663 to the cost of
incarcerating each capital prisoner last year, for a total of $72 million.

http://www.safecalifornia.org/downlo...ostArticle.pdf
Stats are like the Bible, anyone can use them to prove their point.

It comes down to the fact that we need a deterrent that people committing heinous acts are aware they will face if caught.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:34 PM   #23
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There's a reason crime is so low in the Middle East (granted they use torture too).

If peddling coke or armed robbery meant the death penalty you'd see a severe drop off in this type of ****.

Also, we need to speed up the death penalty. Years of waiting is retarded.
Because they don't report it and/or things like abusing your woman don't count as crimes.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...o_they_hate_us

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When an article in the Egyptian criminal code says that if a woman has been beaten by her husband "with good intentions" no punitive damages can be obtained, then to hell with political correctness. And what, pray tell, are "good intentions"? They are legally deemed to include any beating that is "not severe" or "directed at the face." What all this means is that when it comes to the status of women in the Middle East, it's not better than you think. It's much, much worse.
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In a 2008 survey by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights, more than 80 percent of Egyptian women said they'd experienced sexual harassment and more than 60 percent of men admitted to harassing women.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:34 PM   #24
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Among their findings to be published next week in the Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review:

- The state's 714 death row prisoners cost $184 million more per year than those sentenced to life
in prison without the possibility of parole.

- A death penalty prosecution costs up to 20 times as much as a life-without-parole case.

- The least expensive death penalty trial costs $1.1 million more than the most expensive lifewithout-
parole case.

- Jury selection in a capital case runs three to four weeks longer and costs $200,000 more than in
life-without-parole cases.

- The state pays up to $300,000 for attorneys to represent each capital inmate on appeal.

- The heightened security practices mandated for death row inmates added $100,663 to the cost of
incarcerating each capital prisoner last year, for a total of $72 million.

http://www.safecalifornia.org/downlo...ostArticle.pdf
^ "Per year" is one key word... not intimating the lower duration.

Regardless, most of that is due to bleeding hearts as well and as absurd as avoiding the death penalty.
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:35 PM   #25
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There's a reason crime is so low in the Middle East (granted they use torture too).

If peddling coke or armed robbery meant the death penalty you'd see a severe drop off in this type of ****.

Also, we need to speed up the death penalty. Years of waiting is retarded.
Definitely, because the first place I look when looking for a model of justice and equality is the Middle East.
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