General Baseball Thread 2012 - Page 22 - The Orange Mane

TheChamp24 · 07-09-2012, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houghtam

Because "baddest man in baseball" sounds like it would be an award given based on first half performances of one season, and not an entire career thus far.

Oh, so if we want to talk about career then I think this guy is still ahead of Cabrera:

houghtam · 07-09-2012, 07:36 AM

There aren't 13 players who are better hitters than Cabrera. There aren't 5. He's a top 5 hitter in the game over the course of his career, and that's pretty easy. The hard part of that discussion would be deciding where he ranks in the top 5.

Beantown Bronco · 07-09-2012, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houghtam

Thanks for posting the whole video and not just the stealing home part. Excellent example of why baseball is just as enjoyable on a pitch by pitch basis as it is in the highlight reels.

Once I get to a real computer you get some rep, sir.

3 whole pitches in 3 freaking minutes. A minute for the catcher to call signals and a batter to "check himself", walk around and do God only knows what after a pitch when he didn't even swing. Rick Reilly wrote a recent article for SI that did a full breakdown of a recent game he watched from start to finish and showed how many pace of play rules are being broken now by pitchers and batters, making games essentially unwatchable. I agreed with every word and I'm a huge fan of the sport. Here's the link:

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8...e-play-problem

SouthStndJunkie · 07-09-2012, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheChamp24

Oh, so if we want to talk about career then I think this guy is still ahead of Cabrera:

Albert Pujols has had an awesome career and is a player, who in his prime, was one of the best hitters of all time....there's no disputing that.

TheChamp24 · 07-09-2012, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco

3 whole pitches in 3 freaking minutes. A minute for the catcher to call signals and a batter to "check himself", walk around and do God only knows what after a pitch when he didn't even swing. Rick Reilly wrote a recent article for SI that did a full breakdown of a recent game he watched from start to finish and showed how many pace of play rules are being broken now by pitchers and batters, making games essentially unwatchable. I agreed with every word and I'm a huge fan of the sport. Here's the link:

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8...e-play-problem

You can go a NFL game with 3 plays in 3 minutes. People don't seem to understand that either.

houghtam · 07-09-2012, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco

3 whole pitches in 3 freaking minutes. A minute for the catcher to call signals and a batter to "check himself", walk around and do God only knows what after a pitch when he didn't even swing. Rick Reilly wrote a recent article for SI that did a full breakdown of a recent game he watched from start to finish and showed how many pace of play rules are being broken now by pitchers and batters, making games essentially unwatchable. I agreed with every word and I'm a huge fan of the sport. Here's the link:

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8...e-play-problem

Unwatchable to some. I've read the article before, and I can identify with it...I just think it's a dumb point of view based on the desire for instant gratification. Baseball is not a "me want now" sport. The beauty of it, however, is that people can enjoy it on the level of "ooh look at the pretty home runs", something much deeper, or anything in between. My parents and my family can go to a game together and my Dad and I can watch the game intently and my wife and mother-in-law can barely pay attention, and my son can watch the game, cheer when everyone else cheers, and just enjoy the sights, sounds and smells.

When I watch a game, the only time I think "Jesus just throw the damned ball" is when they throw over to first a million times. I understand that some people feel it's too slow, but the pace is just right for me.

Beantown Bronco · 07-09-2012, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheChamp24

You can go a NFL game with 3 plays in 3 minutes. People don't seem to understand that either.

But look at the difference in how many plays are run in an average baseball game vs a football game.

In an average NFL game, there are only about 120 plays or so run on average between the two teams. Total.

In an MLB game, there are on average over 300 plays (pitches) total between the two teams.

Beantown Bronco · 07-09-2012, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houghtam

Unwatchable to some. I've read the article before, and I can identify with it...I just think it's a dumb point of view based on the desire for instant gratification. Baseball is not a "me want now" sport. The beauty of it, however, is that people can enjoy it on the level of "ooh look at the pretty home runs", something much deeper, or anything in between. My parents and my family can go to a game together and my Dad and I can watch the game intently and my wife and mother-in-law can barely pay attention, and my son can watch the game, cheer when everyone else cheers, and just enjoy the sights, sounds and smells.

When I watch a game, the only time I think "Jesus just throw the damned ball" is when they throw over to first a million times. I understand that some people feel it's too slow, but the pace is just right for me.

It's not instant gratification. It's frustration with the "modern game" where the same 9 innings that not too long ago took a little over 2 hrs to play now takes 3 and a half. For no good reason whatsoever other than guys ignoring the rules, and umps letting them. It's not strategy. It's delay of game.

And I definitely don't need to be told of the beauty of the game. I definitely get it. I grew up LOVING the game. It was my favorite to watch growing. I even have season tix to the Sox local minor league team. The major league games have just gotten out of control.

houghtam · 07-09-2012, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco

It's not instant gratification. It's frustration with the "modern game" where the same 9 innings that not too long ago took a little over 2 hrs to play now takes 3 and a half. For no good reason whatsoever other than guys ignoring the rules, and umps letting them. It's not strategy. It's delay of game.

Right, but coincidentally that change happened right around the time where they lowered the mound. Yes, players take advantage of the rules, but IMO what has a greater effect on the length of the game is the fact that runs are scored at a higher rate nowadays.

WolfpackGuy · 07-09-2012, 08:05 AM

If umpires would just call the damn strike zone, games would go by a lot faster.

It would get batters swinging and move the action along.

Beantown Bronco · 07-09-2012, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houghtam

Right, but coincidentally that change happened right around the time where they lowered the mound. Yes, players take advantage of the rules, but IMO what has a greater effect on the length of the game is the fact that runs are scored at a higher rate nowadays.

At a pitch per minute pace, a perfect game would still take 3+ hrs.

houghtam · 07-09-2012, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco

At a pitch per minute pace, a perfect game would still take 3+ hrs.

Come on, you know that doesn't happen.

Quote:

CHA 2, TOR 0 (13 innings): 3:55
CHA 2, TOR 0: 2:25
PIT 3, SFG 1: 2:25
STL 3, MIA 2: 2:29
LAA 3, BAL 0: 2:20
BAL 3, LAA 2: 2:47
MIA 3, STL 2: 3:11

Those are the low scoring games from the past three days. Notice how 5 of the 7 are under 3 hours. Notice also how one of the 3+ hour games went 13 innings.

Additionally, let's take a look at the no-hitters this season: Jared Weaver's took 2:28, and his team scored 9 runs. Phillip Humber's took 2:17. Hell, the SEA vs. LAN no-hitter only took 2:47, and the Mariners changed pitchers 5 times!

I stand by my statement. High-scoring games have a much bigger effect on game length than anything else.

Beantown Bronco · 07-09-2012, 09:06 AM

Lot's of National Leage games there. Interesting. Maybe I'm tainted by the Sox/Yanks games which seemingly take longer than any others, but I'll stand by it.

Games certainly aren't taking LESS time now than in the past. There are many reasons, scoring certainly could be one of them (although that 3:11 game above shows it's certainly not the only factor). And considering things like batting gloves weren't even around 40 years ago, I find it hard to believe batters would be wasting that extra 10 seconds every at bat adjusting them before they were even invented.

houghtam · 07-09-2012, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco

Lot's of National Leage games there. Interesting. Maybe I'm tainted by the Sox/Yanks games which seemingly take longer than any others, but I'll stand by it.

I hadn't thought of that. Nationally televised games (or those with a strong national following) are bound to take longer because they're trying to maximize on advertising. However, that's the same for a Sunday 1pm game vs. a MNF game in the NFL.

SouthStndJunkie · 07-09-2012, 12:00 PM

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- Detroit's Justin Verlander will start for the American League in Tuesday night's All-Star Game against San Francisco's Matt Cain.

broncocalijohn · 07-09-2012, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthStndJunkie

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- Detroit's Justin Verlander will start for the American League in Tuesday night's All-Star Game against San Francisco's Matt Cain.

Love to know the reasoning. Verlander is a stud but Weaver has a better ERA if you dont want to go by record. Weaver got a no no too.

broncocalijohn · 07-09-2012, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthStndJunkie

Albert Pujols has had an awesome career and is a player, who in his prime, was one of the best hitters of all time....there's no disputing that.

So you are saying he isnt in his prime still? Whoa Nelly!

houghtam · 07-09-2012, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncocalijohn

Love to know the reasoning. Verlander is a stud but Weaver has a better ERA if you dont want to go by record. Weaver got a no no too.

If I had to guess, I'd say it was because Verlander's last start was Wednesday, and Weaver's was Saturday.

houghtam · 07-09-2012, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncocalijohn

So you are saying he isnt in his prime still? Whoa Nelly!

His numbers have been in decline for the past three seasons. It's hard to argue that he's still in his prime until he bucks that trend.

broncocalijohn · 07-09-2012, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houghtam

If I had to guess, I'd say it was because Verlander's last start was Wednesday, and Weaver's was Saturday.

Unless he wants his starter to go 2 to 3 innings, I get that. It would be normal for Weaver to pitch on Tuesday as that is his "offday" that he would throw the most. He could have been on a 20 pitch count and still started. As long as the AL wins, I am ok with it. Verlander can help the Angels get home field advantage for the World Series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by houghtam

His numbers have been in decline for the past three seasons. It's hard to argue that he's still in his prime until he bucks that trend.

Ok, but his prime is much different than all players in those important stats. Since his first HR this season after being dry for a month, he has been on fire. Not scorching but I think with the marine layer gone over Anaheim and his comfort level is getting there for the AL, he will be a factor again.

houghtam · 07-09-2012, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncocalijohn

Unless he wants his starter to go 2 to 3 innings, I get that. It would be normal for Weaver to pitch on Tuesday as that is his "offday" that he would throw the most. He could have been on a 20 pitch count and still started. As long as the AL wins, I am ok with it. Verlander can help the Angels get home field advantage for the World Series.

Ok, but his prime is much different than all players in those important stats. Since his first HR this season after being dry for a month, he has been on fire. Not scorching but I think with the marine layer gone over Anaheim and his comfort level is getting there for the AL, he will be a factor again.

With guys like Trumbo and Trout in the lineup, I don't see how he can't improve. If he doesn't start putting up numbers like he did 5ish years ago, it would be safe to assume he's past his prime.

SouthStndJunkie · 07-09-2012, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncocalijohn

So you are saying he isnt in his prime still? Whoa Nelly!

I'm saying he hasn't produced the numbers the last 2 years that he normally puts up.

I'm not saying he's past his prime quite yet, but he's not the playing at the level he was 3 or 4 years ago.

That said, an Albert Pujols slightly below his prime is still capable of batting .300 and hitting 30 dongs with 100+ RBIs.

A lot of people question if Pujols is really 32 years old, as many Latin players have been known to fudge their age to make them more appealing prospects.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt about that, as I don't know one way or the other.

SouthStndJunkie · 07-09-2012, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houghtam

If I had to guess, I'd say it was because Verlander's last start was Wednesday, and Weaver's was Saturday.

Verlander didn't start last year's All-Star game for the same reason.

SouthStndJunkie · 07-09-2012, 06:39 PM

Robinson Cano goes 0 for 10 in the first round of the home run derby and the Kansas City crowd let him hear about it.

SouthStndJunkie · 07-09-2012, 06:42 PM

Jose Bautista, Prince Fielder, Carlos Beltran and Mark Trumbo blast their way to the 2nd round of the Home Run Derby.

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07-09-2012, 07:36 AM	#527
houghtam WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION MethWolfeAlliance Member #11001001 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Lansing, MI Posts: 5,107 Adopt-a-Bronco: Demon Eagles	There aren't 13 players who are better hitters than Cabrera. There aren't 5. He's a top 5 hitter in the game over the course of his career, and that's pretty easy. The hard part of that discussion would be deciding where he ranks in the top 5.

07-09-2012, 08:05 AM	#535
WolfpackGuy Call me, "Maybe" Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Delaware Posts: 5,694	If umpires would just call the damn strike zone, games would go by a lot faster. It would get batters swinging and move the action along.

07-09-2012, 09:06 AM	#538
Beantown Bronco Athletic Supporter Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mass Posts: 19,111 Adopt-a-Bronco: Matt Prater	Lot's of National Leage games there. Interesting. Maybe I'm tainted by the Sox/Yanks games which seemingly take longer than any others, but I'll stand by it. Games certainly aren't taking LESS time now than in the past. There are many reasons, scoring certainly could be one of them (although that 3:11 game above shows it's certainly not the only factor). And considering things like batting gloves weren't even around 40 years ago, I find it hard to believe batters would be wasting that extra 10 seconds every at bat adjusting them before they were even invented.

07-09-2012, 12:00 PM	#540
SouthStndJunkie Ring of Famer Shannon Says: Listen to The Junkman Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 15,350	KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- Detroit's Justin Verlander will start for the American League in Tuesday night's All-Star Game against San Francisco's Matt Cain.

07-09-2012, 06:39 PM	#549
SouthStndJunkie Ring of Famer Shannon Says: Listen to The Junkman Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 15,350	Robinson Cano goes 0 for 10 in the first round of the home run derby and the Kansas City crowd let him hear about it.

07-09-2012, 06:42 PM	#550
SouthStndJunkie Ring of Famer Shannon Says: Listen to The Junkman Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 15,350	Jose Bautista, Prince Fielder, Carlos Beltran and Mark Trumbo blast their way to the 2nd round of the Home Run Derby.