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Old 06-15-2012, 05:36 PM   #1001
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I daresay that the majority of the bona fide Denver Broncos fans are not at all disgruntled with having Peyton Manning instead of Tebow... even those who might have chanted for Tebow to take over for the struggling Orton at some of last season's games. Bona fide fans of the team are generally delighted with the acquisition of a significant upgrade... particularly since we didn't have to compensate Indianapolis (give up draft picks) to do it.
Yeah, I would think so. It's been a move that's hard to argue with. To get Peyton, I think the Jets would have dumped Sanchez, the Cards would have dumped Kolb, the Niners would have dumped Smith, etc.

This kind of player hitting the free agent market has not happened in the history of the NFL.
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:23 PM   #1002
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I daresay that the majority of the bona fide Denver Broncos fans are not at all disgruntled with having Peyton Manning instead of Tebow... even those who might have chanted for Tebow to take over for the struggling Orton at some of last season's games.
Nobody should be complaining about signing Manning. Everybody should have been complaining about starting Orton.
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:50 PM   #1003
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I think there was majority support for getting Manning. Not for ditching Tebow. Which is why the franchise is in for a rude awakening if Favre II falls short.
Well, again, the team did Tebow a huge favor by letting him go to a team that may give him some playing time this year. And as was true with Lloyd and with Orton (in 2011), there's little upside in hanging onto a guy who doesn't want to be here.

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Originally Posted by Jay3
Yeah, I would think so. It's been a move that's hard to argue with. To get Peyton, I think the Jets would have dumped Sanchez, the Cards would have dumped Kolb, the Niners would have dumped Smith, etc.

This kind of player hitting the free agent market has not happened in the history of the NFL.
Considering what other teams have given up for starting QBs recently ($60 million for Cassel... ) Manning was a steal for us. I can't wait to see this team play.

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Nobody should be complaining about signing Manning. Everybody should have been complaining about starting Orton.
I distinctly recall seeing posts from offseason '09 and during the 6-game winning streak to start that season... crowing about how much better off the Broncos were with Orton instead of Cutler. Some posters even went so far as to claim Orton was the superior QB.

Oh, well... the path has been rocky and controversial, but it eventually led to a situation where we have an elite QB.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:17 PM   #1004
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Posts from '09 supporting Orton during the six-game winning streak have nothing to do with arguing for him to continue starting after the 4-12 abortion. The sample size was too small at that point to realize what a boring and unsuccessful QB he would become.

I'm convinced a large portion of those who so staunchly defended Orton last season did so only because they disliked Tebow or were convinced he'd never be any good.
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:09 PM   #1005
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Posts from '09 supporting Orton during the six-game winning streak have nothing to do with arguing for him to continue starting after the 4-12 abortion. The sample size was too small at that point to realize what a boring and unsuccessful QB he would become.

I'm convinced a large portion of those who so staunchly defended Orton last season did so only because they disliked Tebow or were convinced he'd never be any good.
For me, it boiled down to... the coaches see the whole team in practice every day and they're the ones whose careers are on the line if they get it wrong, so those decisions should be up to them to make without fan interference.
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:21 PM   #1006
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here you go Tebow fans:



enjoy...
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:26 PM   #1007
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Amazing this thread is still going. It's like the Energizer Bunny.


hey you guys we got Peyton F'in Manning, did ya hear?
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:35 PM   #1008
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I want to see Tebow walk across Niagra Falls.
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:19 PM   #1009
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I think there was majority support for getting Manning. Not for ditching Tebow. Which is why the franchise is in for a rude awakening if Favre II falls short.
Works both ways if Manning doesn't work out at least we got out of that Tebow fan mess.
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:57 PM   #1010
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I don't know the answer to that one. I was talking about Tebow, who can.

I don't see why you guys always have to overstate your case so much. He can throw the football. His mechanics for the short game have needed serious work, and he's done that.
It's not overstating it. Two years in, it's pretty clear he cannot throw at an NFL level.

That means completing 60 percent of passes and reading defenses. He can do neither. That is NFL level.

Making one or two pro-level throws doesn't mean he is an NFL level quarterback, even if you want to play semantics, which you later tried to do.

Tebow is not an NFL-level quarterback three years into his career.

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Old 06-15-2012, 10:58 PM   #1011
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Works both ways if Manning doesn't work out at least we got out of that Tebow fan mess.

This is how I feel
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Old 06-15-2012, 11:31 PM   #1012
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It's not overstating it. Two years in, it's pretty clear he cannot throw at an NFL level.

That means completing 60 percent of passes and reading defenses. He can do neither. That is NFL level.

Making one or two pro-level throws doesn't mean he is an NFL level quarterback, even if you want to play semantics, which you later tried to do.

Tebow is not an NFL-level quarterback three years into his career.
Yeah. Like Totally.

Eli Manning Like Totally Sucks Ballz.

Dumbass.
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Old 06-16-2012, 05:23 AM   #1013
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It's not overstating it. Two years in, it's pretty clear he cannot throw at an NFL level.

That means completing 60 percent of passes and reading defenses. He can do neither. That is NFL level.

Making one or two pro-level throws doesn't mean he is an NFL level quarterback, even if you want to play semantics, which you later tried to do.

Tebow is not an NFL-level quarterback three years into his career.
And why the need to accelerate to "three years into his career?"

It's not just you, that's a very common thing, to emphasize how very long Tebow's NFL career has been, and lately I've been seeing "Three years" a lot. By what strange mutant math has it been "three years into his career?"
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Old 06-16-2012, 05:25 AM   #1014
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For me, it boiled down to... the coaches see the whole team in practice every day and they're the ones whose careers are on the line if they get it wrong, so those decisions should be up to them to make without fan interference.
This is an alluring line of reasoning, but I discarded long ago. Sometime in about 1989.

You would think it would hold true, but there are some dumpster fires raging out there during any given NFL season.
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:28 AM   #1015
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And why the need to accelerate to "three years into his career?"

It's not just you, that's a very common thing, to emphasize how very long Tebow's NFL career has been, and lately I've been seeing "Three years" a lot. By what strange mutant math has it been "three years into his career?"
Cuz he played 16 games in two years so that basically makes it like 3.
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Old 06-16-2012, 07:00 AM   #1016
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This is an alluring line of reasoning, but I discarded long ago. Sometime in about 1989.

You would think it would hold true, but there are some dumpster fires raging out there during any given NFL season.
And are those "dumpster fires" because of a coaching decision? Or because there's simply not much talent on a lot of rosters?

Yeah. You can't simply "discard the reasoning," but you do anyway.

This is why I'm glad Tebow is gone. You are completely unreasonable when it comes to him. I'll give you this: you're not as bad as most (see BroncoButthead), but your arguments still don't pass muster.

I'm not sure why you continue to try and convince anyone that Tebow is the greatest thing since sliced bread. He doesn't pass the eye test for most people, including those in decision making positions in the NFL. Yet we and they are all missing something you're not.

It's... kind of insane.
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Old 06-16-2012, 07:54 AM   #1017
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And why the need to accelerate to "three years into his career?"

It's not just you, that's a very common thing, to emphasize how very long Tebow's NFL career has been, and lately I've been seeing "Three years" a lot. By what strange mutant math has it been "three years into his career?"
Depending on which bio sheet you read, some will include the upcoming season as one of a player's "nfl experience" or "years".... so it would not be odd to see an nfl publication listing a player's years of experience as 3 when in actuality he only played 2 years... I guess some writers just assume they're gonna be on the roster.

As far as Tim is concerned.... this is his third year where he's had to work on his mechanics just to complete half of his passes.....if he doesn't develop faster, he will be looking at either a position change or starting his ministry sooner than you guys think
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Old 06-16-2012, 08:23 AM   #1018
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I just want to know why JAX would rather draft a punter in the 3rd round than offer their 3rd for a young stud QB?

Oh yeah Denver was having a fire sale. We can get Tebow for a 4th and still get our punter? Let's do it. We really want that punter so we can go any higher than a 4th for TRT
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Old 06-16-2012, 08:39 AM   #1019
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Old 06-16-2012, 08:49 AM   #1020
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And are those "dumpster fires" because of a coaching decision? Or because there's simply not much talent on a lot of rosters?
Yes, both, and also front office gaffes. The idea of "oh well, these guys know best" just got me nowhere. Imagine your a Cards fan trying to justify giving all that money to Kolb. How do you do that? At some point you realize that a substantial portion of decisions are wrong, and therefore as a fan, there's not point in declaring any particular decision off-limits for scrutiny or questioning. You might recognize they are better qualified overall, but it's actually flawed reasoning to declare a move correct beyond questioning just based on credentials.

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Yeah. You can't simply "discard the reasoning," but you do anyway.
Yes, you can. It's flawed reasoning. It's call an "appeal to authority," and it is a fallacy. Best to consider all facts from scratch.

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This is why I'm glad Tebow is gone. You are completely unreasonable when it comes to him. I'll give you this: you're not as bad as most (see BroncoButthead), but your arguments still don't pass muster.
Don't really care to discuss myself, or what makes you tick, or anyone else. Football.

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I'm not sure why you continue to try and convince anyone that Tebow is the greatest thing since sliced bread. He doesn't pass the eye test for most people, including those in decision making positions in the NFL. Yet we and they are all missing something you're not.

It's... kind of insane.
It is the "eye test." He reads "wrong" to the eyes of many. And he doesn't to many of us. If he doesn't look bad, then objectively he's not all that bad.

But the thing is this -- detractors always seem to cloak themselves in the idea that "everybody" in the NFL agrees with them, or at least everybody who matters. But they don't -- there's plenty of people who do think he's good. The New York Jets, for one.

Almost nobody thinks he's the GOAT -- there's a natural tendency for running quarterbacks to have belief in them, because the thinking goes like this: "This guy runs it as good as a running back, so if he could be competent to average as a passer, he would be hard to stop." People were really high on Vick, even though his passing efficiency in college was very low. Vince Young was probably overrated in hindsight. Cam Newton, although he is a great passer, probably got more attention because of his running college (the thinking being he could really change the game).

People who like Tebow see an elite runner, who also has a great NFL size, a strong arm, and that freakish ability to hit long passes. It's just an easy leap for us -- the thinking is he can get better with his footwork and mechanics and develop a better short passing game. It's not a huge leap.

I can understand a giant "meh" when looking at Tebow. I do not understand those who think he needs to be run out of the league.
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Old 06-16-2012, 12:29 PM   #1021
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Yes, both, and also front office gaffes. The idea of "oh well, these guys know best" just got me nowhere. Imagine your a Cards fan trying to justify giving all that money to Kolb. How do you do that? At some point you realize that a substantial portion of decisions are wrong, and therefore as a fan, there's not point in declaring any particular decision off-limits for scrutiny or questioning. You might recognize they are better qualified overall, but it's actually flawed reasoning to declare a move correct beyond questioning just based on credentials.

Yes, you can. It's flawed reasoning. It's call an "appeal to authority," and it is a fallacy. Best to consider all facts from scratch.
Yes, coaches make mistakes... and when they make too many of them, they get fired (like your reference to 1989). I'd find it easier to justify paying Kolb than paying $60 million for Cassel... just sayin'. Ultimately it's all "tilting at windmills" however... cause coaches and front offices are gonna do what they're gonna do regardless of whether or not an individual fan approves.

No one said any decisions were "off-limits for scrutiny"... but it is just common sense that those who are present for workouts and practices and see with their own eyes how players perform on a daily basis... are better-equipped to make informed decisions regarding starting lineups than those who are not.

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Don't really care to discuss myself, or what makes you tick, or anyone else. Football.



It is the "eye test." He reads "wrong" to the eyes of many. And he doesn't to many of us. If he doesn't look bad, then objectively he's not all that bad.

But the thing is this -- detractors always seem to cloak themselves in the idea that "everybody" in the NFL agrees with them, or at least everybody who matters. But they don't -- there's plenty of people who do think he's good. The New York Jets, for one.
Are the New York Jets planning on using Tim Tebow as a QB? Asking him to add weight would strongly suggest that they are not. No one denies that he can play football... he just cannot consistently put the football where it needs to be.

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Almost nobody thinks he's the GOAT -- there's a natural tendency for running quarterbacks to have belief in them, because the thinking goes like this: "This guy runs it as good as a running back, so if he could be competent to average as a passer, he would be hard to stop." People were really high on Vick, even though his passing efficiency in college was very low. Vince Young was probably overrated in hindsight. Cam Newton, although he is a great passer, probably got more attention because of his running college (the thinking being he could really change the game).

People who like Tebow see an elite runner, who also has a great NFL size, a strong arm, and that freakish ability to hit long passes. It's just an easy leap for us -- the thinking is he can get better with his footwork and mechanics and develop a better short passing game. It's not a huge leap.

I can understand a giant "meh" when looking at Tebow. I do not understand those who think he needs to be run out of the league.
I don't think many people think "he needs to be run out of the league"... it's more that "if he cannot consistently put the ball where it needs to be, then the "starting QB" position isn't a realistic goal for him; he needs to shift to FB, TE or some other position where he can immediately succeed." There are many areas where he could make a significant contribution on a football team, things he can do right now with the tools he already has.
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Old 06-16-2012, 01:12 PM   #1022
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He's bulking up to play not-QB in New York. Oh, I'm sure he'll line up under center sometimes, and oh how you'll hoot and holler. "SEE?" you'll yell. "He's playing QB right now! TEH JETX BELEIEEEEEEVE!" But then he'll be blocking on punt coverage two plays later, and you'll still be remembering that glorious play when he bounced a screen pass. Dressing up as a QB.

You wanna start from scratch? Let's do that.

Word out of camp was that Tebow looked TERRIBLE. Full stop. That wasn't just coaches, that was everyone. Now I know, I know, "he's a gamer!" and "he's not a practice player!" but the fact is, you've got to perform in practice if you want to see the field. That's how it's always been. So using the fact that he looked TERRIBLE in camp, Orton was the starter to begin last season.

That's not an appeal to authority. That's seeing what everyone else sees.

Thing about it is, even when Tebow did start, he STILL looked like garbage for three quarters a game. I'm not appealing to authority to get there.
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Old 06-16-2012, 03:38 PM   #1023
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Yeah. Like Totally.

Eli Manning Like Totally Sucks Ballz.

Dumbass.
the difference is that Eli basically improved in every season since his rookie year.

He only improve his completion pct. by 4 points in year two, but he threw for almost 3800 yards....which showed promise, and earned him patience from fans and coaches

his 3rd season saw him hit on almost 58% of his passes...which is closer to the silver standard of 60% which earned him a little more patience....

His 4th season saw him drop 2 points in completion % (just over 56%)...but he helped his team win the SB...so that earned him more patience by the fans and coaches.

the next season he hit 60% reduced his int's by about 50% and has been elite ever since.

Tebow hit on 50% as a rookie...and then hit 46.5% in second year

Watching Eli play, the fans and coaches saw that it was just a matter of time before he'd become elite.....your boy on the other hand hadn't shown enough to most Bronco fans and the coaching staff to make them believe he'll become elite.....he showed enough to make most that have watched him think he'll be serviceable at best.
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Old 06-16-2012, 03:45 PM   #1024
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I just want to know why JAX would rather draft a punter in the 3rd round than offer their 3rd for a young stud QB?


Oh yeah Denver was having a fire sale. We can get Tebow for a 4th and still get our punter? Let's do it. We really want that punter so we can go any higher than a 4th for TRT
Well, first off...Tebow isn't a stud QB....at this stage of his career he's serviceable at best. They already have a 1st round pick Qb that struggles...why spend a 3rd on yet another? and regardless of if they acquired Tebow or not...with Gabbert struggling and Matt Moore a shade above Kyle Orton, it made sense to invest in a potentially good to great punter who can help you win the field position battle after all the 3 and outs they'll obviously have.
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Old 06-16-2012, 04:00 PM   #1025
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But the thing is this -- detractors always seem to cloak themselves in the idea that "everybody" in the NFL agrees with them, or at least everybody who matters. But they don't -- there's plenty of people who do think he's good. The New York Jets, for one.


People who like Tebow see an elite runner, who also has a great NFL size, a strong arm, and that freakish ability to hit long passes. It's just an easy leap for us -- the thinking is he can get better with his footwork and mechanics and develop a better short passing game. It's not a huge leap.

I can understand a giant "meh" when looking at Tebow. I do not understand those who think he needs to be run out of the league.
well i guess it's a good thing we traded him to the Jets then....cuz they think he's good.

And who said Tebow needs to be "run out of the league"? some believe he'll be out of the league in a year or two, but that is because he's not shown them enough to change their opinion of his ability to play in the NFL....that isn't wishing he gets run out of the league...it's playing the odds that below average passers rarely make it to year 4 or 5 if they don't improve. The Ryan Leaf's and Akili Smith's and JaMarcus Russell's of the world dictate this to be fact
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