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Old 10-31-2011, 02:38 AM   #51
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I just cannot stomach the archaic offense Fox runs. Most of the other decisions he's made I'm fine with and in fact think overall Fox, while not a barn burner, is good for this organization.

He just needs to put Tebow in a position to succeed. He needs to re-design his offense (with help from the staff) to take advantage of what Tebow has to offer or really what was the point of starting him in the first place?
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:06 AM   #52
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When they go back to Orton, or Quinn, that means they have decided Tebow never plays in Denver again as a QB. Tebow may end up in a different league and still being a star who knows. Watching how poorly he throws a football though I don't think he has it. If it was just not throwing it to the right spot then i would have some hope, but the throws look wobbly and errant to me.
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:08 AM   #53
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The Broncos were play faking, throwing deep, trying to have Tebow not let defense know if he handed ball off by acting like he was running etc. They gave Tebow tons of chances to throw on early downs, this wasn't a play calling problem IMO.
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Old 10-31-2011, 04:54 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by broncosteven View Post
I love how people see one thing then think another here.

I didn't say anything about calling Tim a bust after 5 games. I said he has to show progress over the next 9 games. If he keeps coming out week after week and putting up only 40 yards he will play himself out of a job.

Reread the post.
I agree with you, and this is exactly why I thought it was important to get Tebow on the field now. As much as the fans love Tebow, if he doesn't show it on the field, even his biggest supporters will eventually understand that the organization needs to move on.
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Old 10-31-2011, 05:03 AM   #55
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What about having a battle royal of sorts; give each QB two series to show what they have. Just keep rotating them throughout the whole game. A desperate experiment of sorts.
Been there, done that, didn't work:

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Old 10-31-2011, 05:59 AM   #56
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McDainiels
Cutler gone
Marshall gone
Shefter gone
Hillis gone
Defense never addressed; countless picks wasted.
Just. Curious how did you plan on paying those skells when their contracts were over. Those plus KUper, doom, Bailey.hell we had to cut salary this past year to get under the cap numbers and do not forget clady, royaL.
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Old 10-31-2011, 06:20 AM   #57
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[/B]

They were on the field all day, and two touchdowns were scored on Tebow turnovers.
Yep they also really helped get us great starting positions.

Nothing stays we're are going to score a TD each time starting behind then20

Tia was a total cluster ****. While Tebow did not have. Another great day he was badly the only issue.
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Old 10-31-2011, 06:23 AM   #58
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Fox is dealing with a rabid fanbase that's allergic to decent QB's, so that doesn't help.
If only we had a decent QB.
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Old 10-31-2011, 07:01 AM   #59
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Been there, done that, didn't work:

ah, too true. I remember drafting maddox (when I was about 8) thinking that he was going to be Elways replacement some day. I think I also have that Moore card. ha.
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Old 10-31-2011, 07:03 AM   #60
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Been there, done that, didn't work:

CARL PICKENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-31-2011, 07:07 AM   #61
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The defense just isn't that much better. They can get more sacks, but that is about it. Very few impact plays, can't stop the run well enough, and receivers open all over the field. New coach, different players, same results. It does no good if say Dumervil can get a sack, but does nothing the rest of the game. The best pass rushers are ones teams have to game plan for and they make an impact even in games they get no sacks. DJ Williams made a big play last week, but then this week, returns to being the usual making no difference in the game.
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Old 10-31-2011, 07:22 AM   #62
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The Broncos were play faking, throwing deep, trying to have Tebow not let defense know if he handed ball off by acting like he was running etc. They gave Tebow tons of chances to throw on early downs, this wasn't a play calling problem IMO.
I agree. It was execution and Tebow can't.

We're trying to rebuild a crappy defense. That isn't going to change overnight especially with 5 injuries at defensive tackle, our worst position. On offense, we have a QB that looks about as bad as you can and there is no coach in the league where his style of "I can't read this field and when I throw my feet are crooked so my passes are too high and behind" would work.
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Old 10-31-2011, 07:26 AM   #63
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The defense just isn't that much better. They can get more sacks, but that is about it. Very few impact plays, can't stop the run well enough, and receivers open all over the field. New coach, different players, same results. It does no good if say Dumervil can get a sack, but does nothing the rest of the game. The best pass rushers are ones teams have to game plan for and they make an impact even in games they get no sacks. DJ Williams made a big play last week, but then this week, returns to being the usual making no difference in the game.
Our run defense is much improved, we were number 31 in the league in yards per attempt and 31 in yards per game last year, this year we are 16 in yards per game and 7 in yards per carry. You can't get a much bigger improvement than that.

Last year we were 26th in passing yards per game, we were 32 in sacks and 31 in interceptions. This year we are 12th in sacks, 30th in interceptions and 19th in yards per game passing on defense.

Our defense has improved this year in every tangible way although we are still giving up too many points (down by only 1 point per game from last year).

The real problem is offense, we are down to 19 points per game from 21.5 last year, we are down from 8th in passing yards to 28th, we are up from 26th in rushing yards to 9th but we get fewer 1st downs per game than we did last year.
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Old 10-31-2011, 07:31 AM   #64
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I agree. It was execution and Tebow can't.

We're trying to rebuild a crappy defense. That isn't going to change overnight especially with 5 injuries at defensive tackle, our worst position. On offense, we have a QB that looks about as bad as you can and there is no coach in the league where his style of "I can't read this field and when I throw my feet are crooked so my passes are too high and behind" would work.
it's pretty clear that they have f*'ed up his mechanics. he's doing everything they ask in an effort to get better and going along with all of their changes. it's also pretty clear that the game is still too fast for him. he's just had his 5th NFL start. he also doesn't have much talent around him on the field or on the coaching staff... and yet the Tebow haters are practically drooling at the chance to proclaim him to be the bust of the century and be done with him.

i've never been more embarrassed by my fellow Broncos fans. congrats guys, you're now no different than Jets fans.
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Old 10-31-2011, 07:49 AM   #65
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it's pretty clear that they have f*'ed up his mechanics. he's doing everything they ask in an effort to get better and going along with all of their changes. it's also pretty clear that the game is still too fast for him. he's just had his 5th NFL start. he also doesn't have much talent around him on the field or on the coaching staff... and yet the Tebow haters are practically drooling at the chance to proclaim him to be the bust of the century and be done with him.

i've never been more embarrassed by my fellow Broncos fans. congrats guys, you're now no different than Jets fans.
I am pretty sure they are asking him to throw a accurate ball. At this point I have almost no faith in Tebow to lead us to anything other then Luck. I do hope he gets the next 3 starts to prove or disprove that.
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:38 AM   #66
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I am pretty sure they are asking him to throw a accurate ball. At this point I have almost no faith in Tebow to lead us to anything other then Luck. I do hope he gets the next 3 starts to prove or disprove that.
ok, you're a young QB in his 5th start, not yet up to NFL speed. here's what the coaches are demanding that you do.

- concentrate on your footwork because they have changed that
- concentrate on your throwing motion because they have changed that
- read the defense quickly
- stay in the pocket and don't run, even though you're not getting sufficient OL protection
- find the open receiver, quickly
- throw an accurate ball to that receiver where only the receiver has a chance to catch it, even though you've worked with that receiver for less than 3 weeks.
- whatever you do, don't turn the ball over.
- whatever you do, don't take a sack.
- oh, and know the playbook as well as if you'd been in the system for years, even though it's a new coaching regime and many things may have changed since last season.

is it any wonder the guy is a mess right now?

seriously. he's got a zillion things to worry about. there's a reason he looks young and inexperienced... it's because he is.

give Tom Brady or Peyton Manning 4 or 5 or 6 years in their respective systems and they make it all look so easy. show me any QB in his 5th NFL start that made things look as easy for him as they are now for Manning or Brady.

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Old 10-31-2011, 09:29 AM   #67
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I went to the game and didn't set it up to record so its hard to say what all went wrong with Tebow. Looked like there were some drops and some poorly thrown balls as well. But most of all, it looked like the Lions were selling out on blitzes. Tebow cannot make a throw under pressure. He just doesn't see the openings quick enough. What ticks me off is the lack of adjustment like screens. Franklin was horrible and I don't recall him getting much help... So not enough adjustment there either.

Last thing I noticed, Tebow wouldn't get the play sometimes until there was about 10 seconds left on the play clock. Doesn't give him much time to get to the line and make presnap reads. He needs to get the play quicker and get up to the line quicker.

Lynch was the announcer for the game he basically said the same thing, over and over.

The other thing I noticed was the look on Tebow's face. He seemed very frustrated with the interchanges with the sidelines. He was not his exuberant self and I didn't get the feeling it was all about his play. I have thought for a while now Tebow and Fox will never be a good match.
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:33 AM   #68
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Like I said earlier a month ago, I feel Fox is a short term solution at head coach and will be given 3 years to turn this around.
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:34 AM   #69
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The offense has regressed tremendously under Fox. We are in the bottom of the league far as offense goes. Defense is still the same. The ONLY reason why Fox is the HC is because he was cheap. We didn't go after other coaches because the price tag was too high. Fox was not Elway's first choice.

It sucks, but Broncos organization is in complete disarray. We need wholesale changes all over, and not just patch up jobs that Bowlen/Ellis implements to save money.
Unfortunately we have the same problem Raider fans suffered from for years, ownership woes.

Sure Bowlen and Davis are polar opposites in style but where they are simular is they grew old and incompetent. We are a headless horse.
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:55 AM   #70
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The offense has regressed tremendously under Fox. We are in the bottom of the league far as offense goes. Defense is still the same. The ONLY reason why Fox is the HC is because he was cheap. We didn't go after other coaches because the price tag was too high. Fox was not Elway's first choice.

It sucks, but Broncos organization is in complete disarray. We need wholesale changes all over, and not just patch up jobs that Bowlen/Ellis implements to save money.
Not quite true, we have finally gotten a rush offense back again, sadly our pass offense has fallen off the charts completely. There are 3 reasons for this, 1 poor WR play, DT has yet to run a good route this year, Royal has not been getting open at all, it looks like he just doesn't care anymore, and Decker while has has been getting open has been running some wrong routes and not shown elite hands and concentration. Orton was bad and Tebow is worse, between them they have missed a lot of passes.
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:33 AM   #71
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CARL PICKENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Carl Pickens was Ed Reed before Ed Reed was Ed Reed.
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:36 AM   #72
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Either your right or Fox and Mccoy are just [plain stupid !
In his 5th start, spanning 2 years (3--2) with a lock-out off season in between.....

Tebow looked terrible, he couldn't open holes for the Bronco RB for most of the day.

Tebow also gave the other team big advantages with all of his fumbles.

Tebow looked terrible, he couldn't hold a block for more than 1-2 seconds on pass plays for most of the day.
(makes a big difference in results when you have all day to throw vs 1-3 seconds before getting hammered)

Tebow looked terrible, he couldn't get off the DB's bump or get open for most of the day.

Tebow looked terrible, he dropped several balls that either hit him in the hands, or passed right between his hands/arms.

With less than 2 seconds before the defense arrived on that play, Tebow threw his first Int. of the 2011 season.

Tebow looked terrible, he actually over or under threw a pass now and then, unlike other NFL QB's who never miss.

Why, Tebow was so bad that he gave up 45 pts, letting the Lions do just about anything that they wanted to do on offense.

So much for that incompetent Tebow schmuck....
======================

Orton's 7th year NFL Vet with a very accurate cannon arm PER to date: 75.7 (8 TD's 7 Ints) -- Without Gaffney

Tebow's 2nd year, 5th start with his inaccurate, weak armed PER to date: 75.1 (4 TD's 1 Int) -- Without Gaffney or Pro Bowl Lloyd
----------------

Current NFL QB's TD to Int Ratio: (discounting the media morons and the biased idiot game commentators)

A.Rodgers on 239 passes, 20/3 = 6.66 to 1 -- 1 TD per 11.9 passes
M.Stafford on 299 passes, 19/4 = 4.75 to 1 -- 1 TD per 15.7 passes
A.Smith --- on 182 passes, 9/2 = 4.50 to 1 -- 1 TD per 20.2 passes
T.Tebow --- on 76 passes, 4/1 = 4.00 to 1 -- 1 TD per 19.0 passes (2011 only)

E.Manning - on 241 passes, 13/5 = 2.60 to 1 -- 1 TD per 18.5 passes
T.Tebow ---- on 158 passes, 9/4 = 2.25 to 1 -- 1 TD per 17.5 passes (Career Stats)
T.Brady ---- on 272 passes, 18/8 = 2.25 to 1 -- 1 TD per 15.1 passes
Big-Ben ---- on 284 passes, 14/7 = 2.00 to 1 -- 1 TD per 20.3 passes
D.Brees --- on 343 passes, 19/10 = 1.90 to 1 -- 1 TD per 18.0 passes

C.McCoy --- on 286 passes, 9/5 = 1.80 to 1 -- 1 TD per 31.8 passes
J.Cutler ---- on 232 passes, 9/6 = 1.50 to 1 -- 1 TD per 25.8 passes
S.Bradford - on 196 passes, 3/2 = 1.50 to 1 -- 1 TD per 65.3 passes (#1 draft pick 2010)
C.Newton - on 287 passes, 11/9 = 1.22 to 1 -- 1 TD per 26.1 passes (#1 draft pick 2011)

And 8 of 32 (25%) starting NFL QB's have thrown for more INT's, than TD's. They all have the skills to be NFL QB's but Tebow doesn't
I'd put up all of Elway's stats after his 1st 5 better supported games, but I've come to realize that certain realities are mostly not allowed here.

Sorry, but to me, > with what Tim is surrounded by,< he's actually doing a GREAT QB'ing job so far.
Tebow's Career Pass Stats: 76 of 158, 48.1%, 1,066 yds, 6.75 yds/comp, 9 TD, 4 Int, 78.7 PER
(Rookie Elway 7 TD - 14 Int PER 54)

So you can continue to listen to the X-spurts, or you can just use the actual on the field stats and your own lying eyes.

Now, for what NONE of the above QB's can bring to the table to supplement their passing skills.

Top 4 2011 Bronco Runners:

McGahee 103 for 460 yds, 4.5 ypc, Long 28 yds, 1 TD
Moreno --- 31 for 123 yds, 4.0 ypc, Long 13 yds, 0 TD
Tebow ---- 26 for 159 yds, 6.1 ypc, Long 21 yds, 1 TD
Ball ------- 21 for 117 yds, 5.6 ypc Long 34 yds, 0 TD
* 2011 Tebow #1 ypc, tie #1 Rushing TD's, #2 total rushing yds, but only #3 in number of carries.

Tebow's Career Rushing = 69 for 386 yds, 5.6 ypc, 7 TD to 1 lost poss fumble.
On 227 total snaps from center, Tebow has turned the ball over a total of 5 times, once per 45.4 plays.
Passing and running, while taking a beating and running for his life, with mostly junk surrounding him,
he still has just one T/O per game on average.

Said Lions defensive end Cliff Avril: "As long as he felt our pressure, he was going to make crazy decisions."
Said more correctly; with an incompetent OL and Receivers that could rarely get off the bump or get open,
#15 was not going to light it up all by himself. (and I agree)
======================

Conclusion:

At seasons end, Elway should either trade Tim or just cut Tim and be done with him and his Tebowites.

Luck's the man and McCoy/Fox - Elway - Bowlen should sell the entire donkey barn if necessary to get him.

NOTHING else will do, so just go ahead, bite the harness and get it done.

In my own judgment, Tebow will NEVER BE A Truly SUCCESSFUL QB,,, IF he stays in Denver.
And the proximate cause for that imoho is --- McCoy/Fox - Elway - Bowlen's
much demonstrated lack of judgment and/or competence.

Last edited by AlphaSeirra; 10-31-2011 at 01:09 PM..
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Old 11-01-2011, 09:44 AM   #73
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In his 5th start, spanning 2 years (3--2) with a lock-out off season in between.....

Tebow looked terrible, he couldn't open holes for the Bronco RB for most of the day.

Tebow also gave the other team big advantages with all of his fumbles.

Tebow looked terrible, he couldn't hold a block for more than 1-2 seconds on pass plays for most of the day.
(makes a big difference in results when you have all day to throw vs 1-3 seconds before getting hammered)

Tebow looked terrible, he couldn't get off the DB's bump or get open for most of the day.

Tebow looked terrible, he dropped several balls that either hit him in the hands, or passed right between his hands/arms.

With less than 2 seconds before the defense arrived on that play, Tebow threw his first Int. of the 2011 season.

Tebow looked terrible, he actually over or under threw a pass now and then, unlike other NFL QB's who never miss.

Why, Tebow was so bad that he gave up 45 pts, letting the Lions do just about anything that they wanted to do on offense.

So much for that incompetent Tebow schmuck....
======================

Orton's 7th year NFL Vet with a very accurate cannon arm PER to date: 75.7 (8 TD's 7 Ints) -- Without Gaffney

Tebow's 2nd year, 5th start with his inaccurate, weak armed PER to date: 75.1 (4 TD's 1 Int) -- Without Gaffney or Pro Bowl Lloyd
----------------

Current NFL QB's TD to Int Ratio: (discounting the media morons and the biased idiot game commentators)

A.Rodgers on 239 passes, 20/3 = 6.66 to 1 -- 1 TD per 11.9 passes
M.Stafford on 299 passes, 19/4 = 4.75 to 1 -- 1 TD per 15.7 passes
A.Smith --- on 182 passes, 9/2 = 4.50 to 1 -- 1 TD per 20.2 passes
T.Tebow --- on 76 passes, 4/1 = 4.00 to 1 -- 1 TD per 19.0 passes (2011 only)

E.Manning - on 241 passes, 13/5 = 2.60 to 1 -- 1 TD per 18.5 passes
T.Tebow ---- on 158 passes, 9/4 = 2.25 to 1 -- 1 TD per 17.5 passes (Career Stats)
T.Brady ---- on 272 passes, 18/8 = 2.25 to 1 -- 1 TD per 15.1 passes
Big-Ben ---- on 284 passes, 14/7 = 2.00 to 1 -- 1 TD per 20.3 passes
D.Brees --- on 343 passes, 19/10 = 1.90 to 1 -- 1 TD per 18.0 passes

C.McCoy --- on 286 passes, 9/5 = 1.80 to 1 -- 1 TD per 31.8 passes
J.Cutler ---- on 232 passes, 9/6 = 1.50 to 1 -- 1 TD per 25.8 passes
S.Bradford - on 196 passes, 3/2 = 1.50 to 1 -- 1 TD per 65.3 passes (#1 draft pick 2010)
C.Newton - on 287 passes, 11/9 = 1.22 to 1 -- 1 TD per 26.1 passes (#1 draft pick 2011)

And 8 of 32 (25%) starting NFL QB's have thrown for more INT's, than TD's. They all have the skills to be NFL QB's but Tebow doesn't
I'd put up all of Elway's stats after his 1st 5 better supported games, but I've come to realize that certain realities are mostly not allowed here.

Sorry, but to me, > with what Tim is surrounded by,< he's actually doing a GREAT QB'ing job so far.
Tebow's Career Pass Stats: 76 of 158, 48.1%, 1,066 yds, 6.75 yds/comp, 9 TD, 4 Int, 78.7 PER
(Rookie Elway 7 TD - 14 Int PER 54)

So you can continue to listen to the X-spurts, or you can just use the actual on the field stats and your own lying eyes.

Now, for what NONE of the above QB's can bring to the table to supplement their passing skills.

Top 4 2011 Bronco Runners:

McGahee 103 for 460 yds, 4.5 ypc, Long 28 yds, 1 TD
Moreno --- 31 for 123 yds, 4.0 ypc, Long 13 yds, 0 TD
Tebow ---- 26 for 159 yds, 6.1 ypc, Long 21 yds, 1 TD
Ball ------- 21 for 117 yds, 5.6 ypc Long 34 yds, 0 TD
* 2011 Tebow #1 ypc, tie #1 Rushing TD's, #2 total rushing yds, but only #3 in number of carries.

Tebow's Career Rushing = 69 for 386 yds, 5.6 ypc, 7 TD to 1 lost poss fumble.
On 227 total snaps from center, Tebow has turned the ball over a total of 5 times, once per 45.4 plays.
Passing and running, while taking a beating and running for his life, with mostly junk surrounding him,
he still has just one T/O per game on average.

Said Lions defensive end Cliff Avril: "As long as he felt our pressure, he was going to make crazy decisions."
Said more correctly; with an incompetent OL and Receivers that could rarely get off the bump or get open,
#15 was not going to light it up all by himself. (and I agree)
======================

Conclusion:

At seasons end, Elway should either trade Tim or just cut Tim and be done with him and his Tebowites.

Luck's the man and McCoy/Fox - Elway - Bowlen should sell the entire donkey barn if necessary to get him.

NOTHING else will do, so just go ahead, bite the harness and get it done.

In my own judgment, Tebow will NEVER BE A Truly SUCCESSFUL QB,,, IF he stays in Denver.
And the proximate cause for that imoho is --- McCoy/Fox - Elway - Bowlen's
much demonstrated lack of judgment and/or competence.
Someone reported that Elway said something like; "Tebow's a great guy, I'd let him marry my daughter, but as our QB

Well, I feel something similiar about Elway.
As an NFL QB, I'd let John hang around long enough to finally win a couple of SB's,,,,,

However, with his recent demonstrated lack of good judgment, I'd NEVER let him marry my daughter.....
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Old 11-01-2011, 10:01 AM   #74
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Just. Curious how did you plan on paying those skells when their contracts were over. Those plus KUper, doom, Bailey.hell we had to cut salary this past year to get under the cap numbers and do not forget clady, royaL.
did you type this with your ass cheeks?
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Old 11-01-2011, 10:06 AM   #75
bendog
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Originally Posted by Kaylore View Post
I agree. It was execution and Tebow can't.

We're trying to rebuild a crappy defense. That isn't going to change overnight especially with 5 injuries at defensive tackle, our worst position. On offense, we have a QB that looks about as bad as you can and there is no coach in the league where his style of "I can't read this field and when I throw my feet are crooked so my passes are too high and behind" would work.
I don't really get it either. If a team brings up one of their safeties, and you're already in 3 wr and 1 te, that means no matter what they do with some kind of deception with the up safety and Sam, you got one wr deep with no safety help. And Tebow still missed open guys short in man and threw deep to where there was safety help.
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