Defunding Obamacare - Can it happen?

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by BBII

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...fe-expectancy/

AKA mathturbation to meet the desired political viewpoint.

Sorta like removing African-Americans from group "citizens" so comparisons with other nations don't look so ****ing bad.

[BroncoBeavis]

Originally Posted by W*GS

AKA mathturbation to meet the desired political viewpoint.

Sorta like removing African-Americans from group "citizens" so comparisons with other nations don't look so ****ing bad.

Yeah, totally. Trying to isolate out demographic and environmental variables to compare actual health care outcomes is like totally inappropriate.

Thanks Mr Science.

Nope, when Wagsy looks for a good health care indicator, he wants to know how many people die in car wrecks. Because Socialized Medicinebearpig!

[frerottenextelway]

Btw just an update on the original topic, Cruz's senate colleagues have firmly tossed him and his "plan" to defund ACA under the bus, and are voting in almost unison against him.

[Blart]

Originally Posted by BBII

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...fe-expectancy/

^ Painfully stupid research from the Koch-funded, neo-conservative Manhattan Institute.

Even if we take the fascist for his word and ignore all the US deaths he doesn't like to acknowledge, we're still looking at one of the most wasteful healthcare systems in the world. He's promoting a system that spends nearly 90% more than Canada and 176% more than Japan per capita for an insignificant increase in life expectancy, according to the figures in the article.

And the cancer "survival" rates are inflated, since the US heavily overdiagnoses and overtreats non-life-threatening cancer. Prostate cancer especially.
http://america.aljazeera.com/article...nofcancer.html

You can't "survive" something that was never going to kill you.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Blart

You can't "survive" something that was never going to kill you.

False. 9/11 and Katrina. Even the USS Cole. Nailed it.

[BroncoBeavis]

Originally Posted by Blart

^ Painfully stupid research from the Koch-funded, neo-conservative Manhattan Institute.

Even if we take the fascist for his word and ignore all the US deaths he doesn't like to acknowledge, we're still looking at one of the most wasteful healthcare systems in the world. He's promoting a system that spends nearly 90% more than Canada and 176% more than Japan per capita for an insignificant increase in life expectancy, according to the figures in the article.

And the cancer "survival" rates are inflated, since the US heavily overdiagnoses and overtreats non-life-threatening cancer. Prostate cancer especially.
http://america.aljazeera.com/article...nofcancer.html

You can't "survive" something that was never going to kill you.

Wow there's a lot here. First, attacking a theoretical Koch-link while openly linking to Al Jazeera. Nice...

And we can argue the ins and outs of cancer survival and how many dollars and cents life years are really worth. That's where the real argument is to be had, and as I think you're getting at, it's not a simple argument by any stretch.

But the simple takeaway should be... One, Life Expectancy means next to nothing. And Two, while actual Healthcare in the US may be wasteful, and/or non-universal, in most cases it produces very good outcomes. Better than the rest of the world in many cases.

[houghtam]

Originally Posted by BBII

Wow there's a lot here. First, attacking a theoretical Koch-link while openly linking to Al Jazeera. Nice...

And we can argue the ins and outs of cancer survival and how many dollars and cents life years are really worth. That's where the real argument is to be had, and as I think you're getting at, it's not a simple argument by any stretch.

But the simple takeaway should be... One, Life Expectancy means next to nothing. And Two, while actual Healthcare in the US may be wasteful, and/or non-universal, in most cases it produces very good outcomes. Better than the rest of the world in many cases.

Why link a graph showing life expectancy if it means next to nothing?

Oh, that's right. Because it suited your argument at the time.

Example # 2,345 and counting.

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by BBII

Wow there's a lot here. First, attacking a theoretical Koch-link while openly linking to Al Jazeera. Nice...

What's your issue with Al Jazeera in this context? Or is Al Jazeera just automatically "bad" and because it's not an American based organization and has a name that sounds scary to you?

[Missouribronc]

Meh...it's just cancer.

Rub some dirt on it, you p***Y.

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by Blart

Here are some other things I love about Singapore's Healthcare:

1) 36% of each paycheck is automatically taken into mandated savings accounts. 36%! And that's before taxes.

Actually, only 6% of salary (pre-tax) is used to set aside in Health Savings Accounts. And even that is paid for by both employers and employees.

Please do some research before posting inaccurate information.

[pricejj]

The remainder of Singapore's mandatory savings can go toward education, real estate, or retirement...and can be used by ANYONE in your family. Singapore enjoys the highest rate of home-ownership (85%) in the world, the highest infant birth survival rate in the world, and the 4th longest life expectancy in the world.

Singapore is simply the cheapest, most efficient, and effective healthcare system in the world (by far). It is a 4-payer system (just like the U.S.). The U.S. can get there, but needs to separate Medicare/Medicaid from the private system first. The U.S. also needs to prevent over-utilization by requiring copays for ALL medical services (not encouraging over-utilization like Obamacare).

Socialist Democrats (like Blart) would rather confiscate your money to pay for unworkable, unsustainable, over-priced, government-controlled systems whose costs increase faster than inflation...rather than let you save and spend your money yourself.

[BroncoBeavis]

Originally Posted by TonyR

What's your issue with Al Jazeera in this context? Or is Al Jazeera just automatically "bad" and because it's not an American based organization and has a name that sounds scary to you?

Well it's a pretty tough sell to go from linking every fact you don't like to the Koch Brothers, with the follow up of "Now let's see what the Qatari Royal Family thinks."

[Rohirrim]

Singapore is an extremely restrictive, 234 sq. mile city/state with a population of 5 million and a GDP of 270 billion. Not exactly a model that works for the rest of the world.

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by BBII

Well it's a pretty tough sell to go from linking every fact you don't like to the Koch Brothers, with the follow up of "Now let's see what the Qatari Royal Family thinks."

Ah, I see you quickly googled "Al Jazeera" and learned that it's based in Doha as opposed to some Islamist stronghold. The most important part of the previous sentence was "learned".

[BroncoBeavis]

Originally Posted by TonyR

Ah, I see you quickly googled "Al Jazeera" and learned that it's based in Doha as opposed to some Islamist stronghold. The most important part of the previous sentence was "learned".

You can think of Qatar as more 'moderate' than the Koch Brothers if you like. Very Gaffenean of you, but be my guest.

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Singapore is an extremely restrictive, 234 sq. mile city/state with a population of 5 million and a GDP of 270 billion. Not exactly a model that works for the rest of the world.

I spent a week in Singapore a couple years ago.

It is an authoritarian state.

No wonder right-wingers here admire it. It's a model for them.

The Singapore pledge is as follows:

We, the citizens of Singapore,
pledge ourselves as one united people,
regardless of race, language or religion,
to build a democratic society
based on justice and equality
so as to achieve happiness, prosperity and
progress for our nation.

Note that "liberty", "freedom" and "rights" are not mentioned.

[houghtam]

Singapore.

Here we go again.

Get pwnt in one thread, just wait a year and hope everyone forgot.

Great discussion! A++

[BroncoBeavis]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Singapore is an extremely restrictive, 234 sq. mile city/state with a population of 5 million and a GDP of 270 billion. Not exactly a model that works for the rest of the world.

Sounds a lot like Norway, other than the square footage. I'm sure I've said that before. But just to be fair, we can clean that popular example off the board as well.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by BBII

Sounds a lot like Norway, other than the square footage. I'm sure I've said that before. But just to be fair, we can clean that popular example off the board as well.

And the same people who are hysterical about death panels want to cut $40 billion from food stamps.

[BroncoBeavis]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

And the same people who are hysterical about death panels want to cut $40 billion from food stamps.

I'm not sure they're entirely the same people. But I agree, the foodstamp thing is moronic. Of all the things they could go after...

[pricejj]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Singapore is an extremely restrictive, 234 sq. mile city/state with a population of 5 million and a GDP of 270 billion. Not exactly a model that works for the rest of the world.

Norway has a population of 5 million and a GDP of 499 billion. Yet you keep trying to shove unsustainable western European single-payer down everyone's throat.


Singapore's 4-payer health care system is superior. No matter how much you deny it, you can't change the facts. Australia's 4-payer system is even moving more towards free market. With steps in the proper direction, the U.S. will get there someday.

The first step to drastically reduce costs would be to separate the public (Medicare/Medicaid) and the private markets.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Originally Posted by B-Large

you wil have option like 150-300/month with deductible, and if you are economcially challnged as you claim, you will get tax credit to but that insurance, so perhaps that 200/month policy becomes $100/mo..

if you are serious: http://www.healthcare.com/insurance/...29+State+Terms

if you are just posting to be partisan and inflammatory, then by all means...

No, my intention was not be partisan. That may be all it would cost if I was single, but I have a wife and 4 kids.

What I stated about Obama is a fact. He made a closed door deal with officials from major healthcare insurance companies so they would stop spreading negative propaganda about him.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Originally Posted by houghtam

And they're not great plans, by any means...but they are better than nothing, and definitely better than visiting the emergency room.

We have medical clinics here. That's where I send my family if they really need to see a doctor. Paying $100 out of pocket once every 3 or 4 months is a lot more affordable than $800 out of pocket per month for health insurance.

[Rigs11]

Don't worry righies, your future presidential candidate is on it.These are the type of members of your party. He might give batshet palin a run for her money.

Cruz conjures Darth Vader 18 hours into Senate marathon

As he hit the 18-hour mark on the Senate floor Wednesday morning, Sen. Ted Cruz compared his anti-Obamacare effort to "Star Wars." And he tried out his vocal impression of Darth Vader.Referring to having heard someone use the phrase "rebellion against oppression," Cruz said those words "conjured up to me the rebel alliance fighting against the empire. The empire being the Washington, D.C., establishment."

"And indeed immediately on hearing that phrase I wondered if at some point we would see a tall gentleman in a mechanical breathing apparatus come forward and say in a deep voice, `Mike Lee, I am your father.' "

Sen. Mike Lee is one of several Republicans who have taken turns at the microphone, giving their colleague a break.

Cruz and a few others in the Republican caucus want to prevent the Senate from taking up the government funding bill passed last week by the GOP-controlled House of Representatives. The Democratic-controlled Senate plans to strip a provision that removed funding for Obamacare.

At one point Tuesday night, the senator from Texas read the Dr. Seuss children's classic "Green Eggs and Ham" to his daughters.

At 9 a.m. Wednesday, Cruz was alone on the floor, except for the presiding officer, Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Illinois.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/25/politi...html?hpt=hp_c2

[BroncoBeavis]

Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor

We have medical clinics here. That's where I send my family if they really need to see a doctor. Paying $100 out of pocket once every 3 or 4 months is a lot more affordable than $800 out of pocket per month for health insurance.

The good news /sarc is now you can do both!

Although the primary care copay will probably be something like $50. So for that $800 plus a month (likely more), you'll at least get a slight discount on those office visits.