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Old 01-13-2019, 06:52 AM   #1
elsid13
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Default Vic Fangio's Defense Scheme

Came across this piece on the old intezwebs and thought it was good piece to understand what he bringing to the table.

https://beargoggleson.com/2015/01/21...ensive-scheme/

Highlights:

1 "Itís widely perceived that Fangioís Niners ran a 3-4 scheme, but thatís not entirely accurate. Occasionally his defense lined up in a traditional 3-4 alignment on obvious run plays, but the majority of the time they ran a 4-3 under scheme. The 4-3 under has been gaining popularity based on the success of proponents like the Seahawks, Broncos, and of course Fangioís 49ers. At itís core his scheme is a 4-3 under, but Fangio has made a few modifications that make it unique"

What is 4-3 under? (https://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/5/31...n-introduction)

2. "The OLBs basically rotate between stand-up defensive ends and run-stoppers with occasional zone coverage responsibilities depending on which side the TE lines up on."

3. "The inside linebackers do have more coverage responsibility than in a standard 3-4 and are also asked to blitz occasionally. "

4. "Most Bears fans have seen enough of the cover 2 scheme, but Fangioís 49er teams ran cover 2 fairly often. He also ran plenty of press coverage and bump-and-run, so at least there will be some variety in the coverage schemes this year. Due to his preference for press coverage, the Bears will be looking for big physical corners who can play zone, contribute against the run, and obviously press cover"


5." Fangio likes his safeties to be interchangeable."

6. Plus like to interchange his players at each level.

Some other reads -

https://bearswire.usatoday.com/2019/...ts-vic-fangio/

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...120-story.html
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:01 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elsid13 View Post
Came across this piece on the old intezwebs and thought it was good piece to understand what he bringing to the table.

https://beargoggleson.com/2015/01/21...ensive-scheme/

Highlights:

1 "Itís widely perceived that Fangioís Niners ran a 3-4 scheme, but thatís not entirely accurate. Occasionally his defense lined up in a traditional 3-4 alignment on obvious run plays, but the majority of the time they ran a 4-3 under scheme. The 4-3 under has been gaining popularity based on the success of proponents like the Seahawks, Broncos, and of course Fangioís 49ers. At itís core his scheme is a 4-3 under, but Fangio has made a few modifications that make it unique"

What is 4-3 under? (https://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/5/31...n-introduction)

2. "The OLBs basically rotate between stand-up defensive ends and run-stoppers with occasional zone coverage responsibilities depending on which side the TE lines up on."

3. "The inside linebackers do have more coverage responsibility than in a standard 3-4 and are also asked to blitz occasionally. "

4. "Most Bears fans have seen enough of the cover 2 scheme, but Fangioís 49er teams ran cover 2 fairly often. He also ran plenty of press coverage and bump-and-run, so at least there will be some variety in the coverage schemes this year. Due to his preference for press coverage, the Bears will be looking for big physical corners who can play zone, contribute against the run, and obviously press cover"


5." Fangio likes his safeties to be interchangeable."

6. Plus like to interchange his players at each level.

Some other reads -

https://bearswire.usatoday.com/2019/...ts-vic-fangio/

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...120-story.html
Thank you Elsid, this is good detail and something Iím sure everyone has been curious about. A 3-4 under to 4-3 under roll could allow us to use some of our smaller DE/DT (walker, Ray) in their natural spots. We need better safety play talent to meet his optimal design; though a healthy Carter, Simmons, and parks is a decent start.

Edit: I just saw your post elsewhere saying the same thing about walker.
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:25 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoachBear View Post
Thank you Elsid, this is good detail and something Iím sure everyone has been curious about. A 3-4 under to 4-3 under roll could allow us to use some of our smaller DE/DT (walker, Ray) in their natural spots. We need better safety play talent to meet his optimal design; though a healthy Carter, Simmons, and parks is a decent start.

Edit: I just saw your post elsewhere saying the same thing about walker.
One of the reason that I posted this was because I think some on board think we are going to completely revamp the defense.

I am still concerned on how both Von and Chubb play in the system. Mack had great year, Floyd only had 4 sacks. (Does that mean he played more coverage)

Also we need a Hick player for interior pressure. Don't see Gotsis or Wolfe doing that. They both seem more designed to stop the run.
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Old 01-13-2019, 08:35 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elsid13 View Post
Came across this piece on the old intezwebs and thought it was good piece to understand what he bringing to the table.

https://beargoggleson.com/2015/01/21...ensive-scheme/

Highlights:

1 "Itís widely perceived that Fangioís Niners ran a 3-4 scheme, but thatís not entirely accurate. Occasionally his defense lined up in a traditional 3-4 alignment on obvious run plays, but the majority of the time they ran a 4-3 under scheme. The 4-3 under has been gaining popularity based on the success of proponents like the Seahawks, Broncos, and of course Fangioís 49ers. At itís core his scheme is a 4-3 under, but Fangio has made a few modifications that make it unique"

What is 4-3 under? (https://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/5/31...n-introduction)

2. "The OLBs basically rotate between stand-up defensive ends and run-stoppers with occasional zone coverage responsibilities depending on which side the TE lines up on."

3. "The inside linebackers do have more coverage responsibility than in a standard 3-4 and are also asked to blitz occasionally. "

4. "Most Bears fans have seen enough of the cover 2 scheme, but Fangioís 49er teams ran cover 2 fairly often. He also ran plenty of press coverage and bump-and-run, so at least there will be some variety in the coverage schemes this year. Due to his preference for press coverage, the Bears will be looking for big physical corners who can play zone, contribute against the run, and obviously press cover"


5." Fangio likes his safeties to be interchangeable."

6. Plus like to interchange his players at each level.

Some other reads -

https://bearswire.usatoday.com/2019/...ts-vic-fangio/

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...120-story.html
Thank you. Great find. Rep!
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:01 AM   #5
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We need a dominant player inside like Fangio had with Justin Smith, Eddie Goldman and Akiem Hicks. We get back to 2015 levels on defense if we have a great player inside with Von and Chubb outside. We can get one of these DT's at 10 but the draft has maybe 6 or 7 that will go in the first round. We go Devin White or QB at 10 i would love us to trade up into the 20's of the first round to get a DT.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:03 AM   #6
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Just a hunch, but Gotsis' trajectory the past two years tells me he has a chance to be the Hicks/Smith in this defense. Already stout against the run and starting to make plays on passing downs.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:09 AM   #7
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@elsid13 nice read thank you.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:09 AM   #8
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2019: the rise of DeMarcus Walker. A crazy dream.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:12 AM   #9
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Broncos have been running the 4-3 Under since JDR in 2012. The difference between being that Fangio, JDR, and Wade actually know how to run it, whereas Woods doesn't.

Run fits and communication were terrible last year.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:18 AM   #10
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The other aspect that I thought interesting was that Vic like more Zone (Cover -2 & Cover-3) with bigger CBs. That should help the young guys since they fit that mode.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:42 AM   #11
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bring back Malik Jackson?
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Old 01-13-2019, 01:11 PM   #12
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I thknk Gotsis is a very underrated player and will have a great year. As far as Wolfe, one of my favorite players, I wish we paired our strength coach with an injury prevention coach.

The thing with this team is that we have enough depth and a big enough lack of stars, outside of RB and OLB we are true BPA team——— except for that pesky an positkon.
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Old 01-13-2019, 02:06 PM   #13
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Gotsis got a lot better as the year went on.

I loved watching Fangio’s defenses at San Fran. Teams had to work really hard to do anything against them. Devon White would make a nice Patrick Willis clone.
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoachBear View Post
Thank you Elsid, this is good detail and something Iím sure everyone has been curious about. A 3-4 under to 4-3 under roll could allow us to use some of our smaller DE/DT (walker, Ray) in their natural spots. We need better safety play talent to meet his optimal design; though a healthy Carter, Simmons, and parks is a decent start.

Edit: I just saw your post elsewhere saying the same thing about walker.
It depends what we get from the ILB position in coverage. We need at least one ILB that can take away the middle, even on intermediate routes to help play more cover 2 so the safeties have lesser range to cover.

I was hoping Cravens would fill that role but who knows.
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Old 01-13-2019, 06:05 PM   #15
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2019: the rise of DeMarcus Walker. A crazy dream.
When I happened to be in Denver they had Marshall on the radio talking football. They asked him why Walker wasn't playing? He said he doesnt fit Denver's D. Too small for 5 tech and not quick enough for OLB. It is not a work ethic situation as he works hard
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Old 01-13-2019, 06:07 PM   #16
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When I happened to be in Denver they had Marshall on the radio talking football. They asked him why Walker wasn't playing? He said he doesnt fit Denver's D. Too small for 5 tech and not quick enough for OLB. It is not a work ethic situation as he works hard
Kind of mind-blowing that they didn't realize this before they pissed away a pick on him.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:53 PM   #17
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When I happened to be in Denver they had Marshall on the radio talking football. They asked him why Walker wasn't playing? He said he doesnt fit Denver's D. Too small for 5 tech and not quick enough for OLB. It is not a work ethic situation as he works hard
Yea, he is a true 4-3 DE that can move inside on passing downs, similar to Robert Ayers IMO. Considering how many snaps are played on nickel and dime formations, I thought a competent coaching staff would be able to find enough playing time for Walker, using him as a DE on 4-man fronts in sub downs and also moving him inside to create some interior rush.

Joseph only activated Walker for 3 games and he recorded 1.0 sack and 1 fumble recovery. It's not like we had a ton of inside pass rush this season, and Derek Wolfe looks done in that department, so I expected Joseph and Woods to try Walker as a situational pass rusher. Gotsis produced 3.0 sacks, while none of the other d-linemen reached 2.0 sacks.

We could have tried 4-man fronts with Walker and Chubb at DE and Miller as a SAM linebacker on passing downs, doing some stunts with Chubb and Miller on the same side. There's a lot of stuff that could be done with Walker as a situational rusher.

Last edited by -Rod-; 01-13-2019 at 10:00 PM..
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:47 AM   #18
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So long story short, the Broncos defense will not change much from what itís been the last five years. Elway needs to get better talent at CB, S, and ILB to see improvement. Something nearly everyone saw last season.
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:53 AM   #19
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So long story short, the Broncos defense will not change much from what itís been the last five years. Elway needs to get better talent at CB, S, and ILB to see improvement. Something nearly everyone saw last season.
And to be fair we did add a starting middle linebacker and two-deep corner in last yearís draft. Added Brock and Pac-Man in free agency. Brock was meh, but Jones actually earned his pay out there. Young player development is gravely needed to reduce the continuous patch work. Eagles are a good example with their corners at the end of the year. Fangios intro presser suggested heís a strong proponent of getting young guys reps to develop them as opposed to some of our previous coaches who preferred vets over anything else.
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Old 01-14-2019, 07:23 AM   #20
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So long story short, the Broncos defense will not change much from what itís been the last five years. Elway needs to get better talent at CB, S, and ILB to see improvement. Something nearly everyone saw last season.
Not really. Over the last two years under VJ, I felt we went more to traditional two gap system to stop the run. We will also be moving a way from man to man press coverage to more zone. Which is something VJ kinda put in.
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Old 01-14-2019, 07:49 AM   #21
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One of the reason that I posted this was because I think some on board think we are going to completely revamp the defense.

I am still concerned on how both Von and Chubb play in the system. Mack had great year, Floyd only had 4 sacks. (Does that mean he played more coverage)

Also we need a Hick player for interior pressure. Don't see Gotsis or Wolfe doing that. They both seem more designed to stop the run.
Floyd was also in a cast for a while. He played really well down the stretch.
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Old 01-14-2019, 07:58 AM   #22
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Not really. Over the last two years under VJ, I felt we went more to traditional two gap system to stop the run. We will also be moving a way from man to man press coverage to more zone. Which is something VJ kinda put in.
Good news in his zone is the use of press from cover 2. Our corners are physical enough to jam, release and float.
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:03 AM   #23
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Good news in his zone is the use of press from cover 2. Our corners are physical enough to jam, release and float.
Yeah. I think Yiadon and Langley might really benefit from this.
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:04 AM   #24
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This is when we need Med looking at the tape and telling us if we are getting it right.
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:53 AM   #25
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I seem to recall a lot of the talk about wade's 3-4 when he came here and implemented it after us running 4-3 previously, was that the d-line gap responsibilities were more in line with a 4-3 in that they were mainly 1-gap type responsibilites even at NT. This article seems to say something pretty similar about Fangio's take on the 3-4. So it may well be that the schemes are pretty similar. But that may be down more to pragmatism than philosophy: true 2-gap NTs are hard to find as it think its an inherently harder technique to master. Witness New England moving back to a 4-3 after Vince Wilfork retired. I think the traditional 2-gap NT is a pretty rare beast these days but I'm happy to be corrected by anyone who has a better grasp of what other teams are doing these days than i do.....
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