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Old 06-16-2015, 02:45 PM   #3051
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The battle at Hardhome easily made this one of the best seasons.
Not sure it made it one of the best, but it certainly saved it. Most memorable episode yet in the series, and the last four were all really good. First half of the season was GoT at its weakest, IMO.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:47 PM   #3052
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As a non-reader of the books, I was pretty bummed to see Stannis and Jon Snow go down the way that they did, but the writing was on the wall. Pretty certain Snow will be revived, he's just too vital to the story, or so it seems to me.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:02 PM   #3053
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Unless Stannis has an army we don't know about on the march, I don't see how he could make it nearly 300 miles to the Dreadfort when he's been slowed by the snow to a mile a day.

And if he already has a secret army headed there, it would probably be too late for the Boltons to do anything about it either.
I don't know if you read the link I supplied, but there is a group of Stannis' soldiers that kind of disappeared while on the road. The theory is that they are going to covertly assault the (lightly guarded, well provisioned) Dreadfort while Stannis' main force makes a big show of setting up outside the (heavily guarded, poorly provisioned) walls of Winterfell.

Obviously it's just a theory, but there are a number of clues pointing toward the plan, including references to a very similar plan carried out in a historical battle.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:16 PM   #3054
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Yeah, I read the link but maybe not closely enough. My problem is that I don't see how that "draws Bolton out." If the secret force attacks the Dreadfort, Bolton's too far away to do anything about it anyway. Stannis is also basically snowed-in. Supplies at the Dreadfort seem to me to be too far away to be of any help his crew camped outside Winterfell, and they can't go anywhere in the snow, so they're doomed to starvation unless they attack or unless Bolton is dumb enough to attack (which he apparently is).

Maybe there's something I'm missing.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:19 PM   #3055
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Yeah, I read the link but maybe not closely enough. My problem is that I don't see how that "draws Bolton out." If the secret force attacks the Dreadfort, Bolton's too far away to do anything about it anyway. Stannis is also basically snowed-in. Supplies at the Dreadfort seem to me to be too far away to be of any help his crew camped outside Winterfell, and they can't go anywhere in the snow, so they're doomed to starvation unless they attack or unless Bolton is dumb enough to attack (which he apparently is).

Maybe there's something I'm missing.
I'm not sure how it will play out, or if it's even close to correct at all. I think they key is that there are way too many people at Winterfell for the current supplies, and losing the Dreadfort and its supplies basically means the end of Roose's army, as each lord would need to go his own home for his people to be able to survive.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:36 PM   #3056
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I'm not sure how it will play out, or if it's even close to correct at all. I think they key is that there are way too many people at Winterfell for the current supplies, and losing the Dreadfort and its supplies basically means the end of Roose's army, as each lord would need to go his own home for his people to be able to survive.
Well, I agree that there is something going on there. And I seem to remember that the original plan was to attack the Dreadfort, but that Jon talked him out of it. So maybe there is some kind of feint in progress...

Honestly, it's been so long since I read DwD that I have a hard time remembering all of this.

In terms of predictions, the one thing I'm fairly sure about is that lots and lots of people are going to die. No one's ready for a winter like this. Most of the country has been ravaged by war and food stocks have to be even lower than normal. Most of the interior is going to be an icy wasteland. Ironborn are raiding the coasts and up the river towards Highgarden, so that's going to be a mess as well. It's just a matter of time before we get disease killing off droves of people as well. War, famine and plague. One way or another, I'm pretty sure the White Walkers are going to come through the Wall and they'll have ever growing numbers to fill their ranks. So there's the 4th Horseman - Death.

I'm not sure it's really going to make any difference who holds anything in the North.

The main significance of Dorne may be that it's one of the last places of refuge in Westeros, simply because it's as far south as you can go.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:04 PM   #3057
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I'm not sure how it will play out, or if it's even close to correct at all. I think they key is that there are way too many people at Winterfell for the current supplies, and losing the Dreadfort and its supplies basically means the end of Roose's army, as each lord would need to go his own home for his people to be able to survive.
Hah, Wyman Manderly taking care of business
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:10 PM   #3058
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Serious question for show watchers:

So if I got this right, Jon gets stabbed by several members of the Watch at show's end....

Who else is at Castle Black at the time?

Melisandre?
Davos? If so, does he have any men with him?
Samwell?
The Giant?
Ghost?
Tormund?
And what about the other Wildlings? Are they armed? Have they been sent off or are they still hanging around?
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:27 PM   #3059
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Originally Posted by Old Dude View Post
Serious question for show watchers:

So if I got this right, Jon gets stabbed by several members of the Watch at show's end....

Who else is at Castle Black at the time?

Melisandre? Yes
Davos? If so, does he have any men with him? yes, but not men that they show
Samwell? gone
The Giant? unclear if still in Castle Black
Ghost? probably
Tormund? unclear if still in Castle Black
And what about the other Wildlings? Are they armed? Have they been sent off or are they still hanging around? unclear if still in Castle Black
Answered as I remember...will watch again tonight
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:34 PM   #3060
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Answered as I remember...will watch again tonight
I think the Wildlings are definitely gone. Melisandre hauled ass there alone, once she realized Stannis was toast. Davos is there alone I assume, don't think that Stannis could have afforded to give him any extra soldiers.

I am hoping Melisandre raises hell and wipes out the watch, then revives Jon. I understand why their pissed off, but that last scene left an extremely sour taste in my mouth.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:38 PM   #3061
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Old Dude- have you watched any of the show yet? I'm sure that's been addressed at some point in this thread, but it's a rather large one. Would be curious to your thoughts on the show as a whole if you had. I know you have not watched any of this particular season.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:46 PM   #3062
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Thanks. Seems to me the Wildlings better not be in the immediate area, or they'd just slaughter the Watch.

Personally, I suspect Jon will warg into Ghost since, in the book at least, that's the last thing he said. Also, it's probably a good thing if Ghost wasn't in the immediate vicinity when Jon got stabbed, since the Watch would have to kill the wolf too (or die trying).

If Melisandre encounters Ghost, fair bet that she'll see Snow in the animal's eyes. (She's good at that sort of thing).

I imagine she'll pull some kind of ruse to get custody of Jon's body. If not, then they probably burn it and Kit's out of a job.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:49 PM   #3063
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Old Dude- have you watched any of the show yet? I'm sure that's been addressed at some point in this thread, but it's a rather large one. Would be curious to your thoughts on the show as a whole if you had. I know you have not watched any of this particular season.
I watched all of Seasons 1-4. We cancelled HBO prior to Season 5, since it just wasn't worth it for GoT and True Detective alone. (Plan to buy Season 5 on DVD when it comes out next year).
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:00 PM   #3064
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I had always kind of figured TWOW would open with Bloodraven swarming the Night's watchmen who stabbed Jon Snow with a flock of ravens and short-circuiting the murder. I figured Jon would survive the four or so stab wounds after reading ADWD. The show appears to be headed in the direction of at least Jon's body being dead.

There is power in a king's blood, and if R+L = J (which I firmly believe is true), Melisandre is going to come across a giant pool of crazy powerful blood. If the show goes in that direction, I don't know how she'll use it, but she better get naked again.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:56 PM   #3065
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As far as thoughts on the show as a whole, I think they've done an amazing job, given the time & budget constraints. My understanding is that when Martin undertook this story, the last thing he had on his mind was its adaptability to the screen. He'd been a screenwriter for some time (Beauty and the Beast among others) and was just aching to throw off those sorts of limitations. So he had a cast of thousands, an entire continent or two to play with, hundreds of subplots and an incredibly involved history, no concern about SFX budgets, etc.

And somehow, HBO got the guts to take a shot at this. I expected much, much worse.

They had to do an immense amount of streamlining to even have a chance of making this work. I think all of us book-readers have been sad at one point or another that some favorite character didn't make the cut or got shortchanged in the plot, but by and large I think these guys deserve enormous kudos.

I think the cast has been pretty spectacular as well. I don't even know where to start. Charles Dance, Peter Dinklage, Jerome Flynn, Liam Cunningham, Maisie Williams, Conleth Hill, Jack Gleeson, Pedro Pascal, Kristofer Hivju, Iain Glenn, Rory McCann, Diana Rigg, Michelle Fairly, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Lena Headly have all been awesome.

I thought Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington started off a little weak but they improved greatly as the show went on.

I never did like the casting of Ciaran Hinds as Mance Rayder, even tough he's a great actor, because he just didn't seem to fit the role. I'd have much preferred James Purifoy, but I guess that's just me. And, they did change an awful lot about Mance for the show, so maybe it wasn't that big of a deal.

Still, the acting has been awesome.

I was disappointed with some of the big set battle scenes, but there's that limited budget. By and large, there's nothing like it on TV.

My biggest gripes are probably:

1. They really could cut down on some of the T&A. For example, I was so busy watching the table action during Littlefinger's exposition that I nearly missed it. Through season 4, they still tend to do that more than necessary.

2. I feel Ramsey Bolton has been a little over the top. The thing that bugged me the most was the failed rescue scene, where he's unarmored and kicking Ironborn butt left and right. They've sort of transformed him into a Hannibal Lector-like genius killer, who's good at everything, which just doesn't ring right. Sometimes I wonder if they had a hard time doing a follow-up act to Jack Gleason.

3. Carice van Houten is a great actress, but Melisandre should have been a visual knockout. Oh well...

4. Tyrion has been kind of a show-stealer and sometimes I think they feel compelled to write him into scenes where he might not belong. Same with Bronn, much as I like the actor. (He's dynamite on BBC's Ripper Street, as well)

5. I expected this season to be a real challenge, because it has to deal with parts of the story that really bog down. I can't complain about too much of what I've heard, though. For the most part, I think they are still making intelligent (but harder) choices.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:10 PM   #3066
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:15 PM   #3067
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The could Bobby Ewing it. Its a big middle finger to the audience...but they could do it
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:27 PM   #3068
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I watched all of Seasons 1-4. We cancelled HBO prior to Season 5, since it just wasn't worth it for GoT and True Detective alone. (Plan to buy Season 5 on DVD when it comes out next year).
No need to buy on DVD. If you want to watch it PM me.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:28 PM   #3069
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Bahaha
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Old 06-17-2015, 10:54 AM   #3070
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:42 AM   #3071
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The could Bobby Ewing it. Its a big middle finger to the audience...but they could do it
I guess people doesn't know what this means anymore?
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:50 PM   #3072
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I don't think it's a dream, but I can't accept that Jon Snow is dead and R + L = J is a red herring.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:17 PM   #3073
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Plus, at least in the books, the conditions seem right:

Supposedly, the identity of Azor Ahai Reborn contains 4 criteria: a person of (1) Targaryen descent, born amidst (2) salt and (3) smoke, under (4) a "bleeding star."

Pretty good chance that R + L = J, which establishes criteria (1).

At the time of his stabbing, "smoke" issues from the first wound (supposedly as a result of the cold). That's criteria (3).

As Jon was attacked, Wun Wun had just finished ripping an arm from Ser Patrek, whose sigil was a Dallas Cowboys style star. The Dude was definitely bleeding and was being thrashed around in the air and against the wall. If that's not "under a bleeding star" I don't know what is. That meets criteria (4)

That just leaves "salt."

Could be Bowen Marsh's "salty" tears.

Could be a reference to Val, whose door Wun Wun was guarding, and who was described earlier in the book as looking like "a pillar of salt" during the fake Mance BBQ.

So there's that.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:58 PM   #3074
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As far as thoughts on the show as a whole, I think they've done an amazing job, given the time & budget constraints. My understanding is that when Martin undertook this story, the last thing he had on his mind was its adaptability to the screen. He'd been a screenwriter for some time (Beauty and the Beast among others) and was just aching to throw off those sorts of limitations. So he had a cast of thousands, an entire continent or two to play with, hundreds of subplots and an incredibly involved history, no concern about SFX budgets, etc.

And somehow, HBO got the guts to take a shot at this. I expected much, much worse.

They had to do an immense amount of streamlining to even have a chance of making this work. I think all of us book-readers have been sad at one point or another that some favorite character didn't make the cut or got shortchanged in the plot, but by and large I think these guys deserve enormous kudos.

I think the cast has been pretty spectacular as well. I don't even know where to start. Charles Dance, Peter Dinklage, Jerome Flynn, Liam Cunningham, Maisie Williams, Conleth Hill, Jack Gleeson, Pedro Pascal, Kristofer Hivju, Iain Glenn, Rory McCann, Diana Rigg, Michelle Fairly, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Lena Headly have all been awesome.

I thought Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington started off a little weak but they improved greatly as the show went on.

I never did like the casting of Ciaran Hinds as Mance Rayder, even tough he's a great actor, because he just didn't seem to fit the role. I'd have much preferred James Purifoy, but I guess that's just me. And, they did change an awful lot about Mance for the show, so maybe it wasn't that big of a deal.

Still, the acting has been awesome.

I was disappointed with some of the big set battle scenes, but there's that limited budget. By and large, there's nothing like it on TV.

My biggest gripes are probably:

1. They really could cut down on some of the T&A. For example, I was so busy watching the table action during Littlefinger's exposition that I nearly missed it. Through season 4, they still tend to do that more than necessary.

2. I feel Ramsey Bolton has been a little over the top. The thing that bugged me the most was the failed rescue scene, where he's unarmored and kicking Ironborn butt left and right. They've sort of transformed him into a Hannibal Lector-like genius killer, who's good at everything, which just doesn't ring right. Sometimes I wonder if they had a hard time doing a follow-up act to Jack Gleason.

3. Carice van Houten is a great actress, but Melisandre should have been a visual knockout. Oh well...

4. Tyrion has been kind of a show-stealer and sometimes I think they feel compelled to write him into scenes where he might not belong. Same with Bronn, much as I like the actor. (He's dynamite on BBC's Ripper Street, as well)

5. I expected this season to be a real challenge, because it has to deal with parts of the story that really bog down. I can't complain about too much of what I've heard, though. For the most part, I think they are still making intelligent (but harder) choices.
Be prepared to hate Ramsay even more.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:28 PM   #3075
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I don't think it's a dream, but I can't accept that Jon Snow is dead and R + L = J is a red herring.
In the books I'm 99.9% certain he's not and it's not. But in the show? Who knows? Azor Azhai will probably end up being Ramsay Bolton at this rate...
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