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Old 06-16-2015, 01:36 AM   #3026
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I wonder if they're going to have Brienne of Tarth kill Ramsay.
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:37 AM   #3027
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Now that the show has surpassed the books and spoilers really can't happen anymore.

**** this show.

Why is it so heartwrenching?
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:37 AM   #3028
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but the weakest season of GoT.
The battle at Hardhome easily made this one of the best seasons.
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:46 AM   #3029
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Now that the show has surpassed the books and spoilers really can't happen anymore.

**** this show.

Why is it so heartwrenching?
No man. They threw down the gauntlet with GRRM. He's got until April to get his book out. He'll have it out in February at the latest. Right? Right?
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:30 AM   #3030
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No man. They threw down the gauntlet with GRRM. He's got until April to get his book out. He'll have it out in February at the latest. Right? Right?
Do you think that troll cares about HBO timeline. He more likely to go write another book about superheros than close out GofT
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:46 AM   #3031
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Do you think that troll cares about HBO timeline. He more likely to go write another book about superheros than close out GofT
And as he has Neil Gaiman basically running point as his ombudsman reminding everyone that George R.R. Martin is not your b****, I seriously doubt he has any real motivation to continue working on the series.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:57 AM   #3032
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These plots were showcased while others weren't given enough time.
That's the issue the show faces right now period. Now that all the actors are spread all over the place there are too many loose storylines and 10 hours cannot do them justice. They will either have to start consolidating or abandoning them, if even temporarily like they did with Bran, in order to have a rich show.

Could you imagine how little they would have touched on what we saw this year if they had Stoneheart, the Paper Dragon, or the Prince going to meet Dany?
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:09 AM   #3033
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Do you think that troll cares about HBO timeline. He more likely to go write another book about superheros than close out GofT
Don't worry guys I got this, epic fanfiction incoming; will let you know when I publish. Spoiler alert, Jon Snow is going to ride Ghost, on top of Rhaegal, dual wielding Blackfyre and Ice (which wasn't melted down after all) all the way to King's Landing where he will kill Littlefinger and Cersei. Oh but on the way he stops and kills the Boltons and the Freys.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:39 AM   #3034
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Don't worry guys I got this, epic fanfiction incoming; will let you know when I publish. Spoiler alert, Jon Snow is going to ride Ghost, on top of Rhaegal, dual wielding Blackfyre and Ice (which wasn't melted down after all) all the way to King's Landing where he will kill Littlefinger and Cersei. Oh but on the way he stops and kills the Boltons and the Freys.
This would be an acceptable ending to me
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:59 AM   #3035
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Second-hand opinion here, because, while I’ve read all the books, I’ve only caught snippets of the show (plus plenty of critical commentary).

I think the whole Dorne subplot was one of the biggest problems in the books, and it sounds like it also had problems in the show. By the time it was introduced in the books, we already had a zillion subplots going on, with maybe a dozen characters who drew some emotional investment. But Oberyn Martell was really the only Dornish character in that regard and he was already dead by the end of book 3. (And I thought they did a great job with him in the TV show).

When the books take us to Dorne, two of our main POV characters are Balon Swann and Areo Hotah. We’ve had almost no background on either of these guys and, frankly, neither is all that interesting. And let’s face it, Myrcella was more of a McGuffin than anything else. Meanwhile, my feeling is that Darkstar and the Sand Snakes were a little over the top – failed efforts to recapture some of what we saw in Oberyn.

The more interesting part of the whole Dorne cycle was learning about Doran Martell’s manipulations behind the scenes, involving attempts to hook up Dorne with one of the surviving Targaryens (first Viserys, then Dany and, based on a spoiler from WoW, maybe with Griff.)

Apparently, Dorne plays enough of a role in the upcoming events that the show-writers couldn’t ignore it altogether, but they decided to send Jaime and Bronn on the mission instead of yet another new or unknown character (Swann) and it’s hard to complain about that. But they also cut out most or all of the wider subplots, which means that there really wasn’t much to do there. Among other things, it makes Arianne Martell a much less significant figure. From what I’ve heard second-hand, they completely failed to pull off the Sand Snakes, which isn’t surprising, because they were so over the top to begin with. Apparently, this wasn’t helped by poor fight choreography and they didn’t invest much of their budget in the scenery either. So it doesn’t surprise me that this was regarded as somewhat of a flop.

Balon Greyjoy’s survival and the absence of the Kingsmoot is probably just a matter of timing in regard to budget, cast and screentime issues. I suspect that’s all coming down the “pike” in season 6.

There was apparently a tremendous uproar about Sansa replacing Jayne Poole in the Winterfell events. A lot of the criticism has to do with her perceived disempowerment. Frankly, I don’t see it. As far as I can tell, she was just as much of a tool in the books (for Littlefinger) and anyone who thinks that Petyr has put her interests above his own there probably has a shock coming. Also, while the whole Harry the Heir plot was interesting to read, I can see why it was cut for the show. Very little action and it moves slowly.

Also, the writers have killed two or three birds with one stone in terms of streamlining. Poole (as a fake Arya) was part of a Lannister plot to “reward” the Boltons and consolidate their position in the North. But with Littlefinger brokering a secret deal for Sansa, then ratting it out to Cersei, the Boltons are now arguably another enemy of King’s Landing. And that may be important down the road to keep the balance of conventional power in check, since we don’t have Griff and the Golden Company invading from the Southeast. If Cersei regains power, or if Littlefinger cuts a deal with the Tyrells, then he gets military control of the Vale in a faster method than the whole Harry deal. Plus, it’s got to be interesting to see the interactions between Sansa and Reek, given all that’s gone on before. Finally, no one really gave a damn about Poole’s mistreatment, since no one was invested in her, but Sansa ups the stakes. Seems to me that was probably a good call.

I can’t speak to the whole fate of Stannis thing, because it sounds like it’s largely a matter of pacing and I didn’t see the show. I’m not surprised that the Boltons got the better of him in the show, though. His troops were mainly mercenaries, trying to move through ridiculous winter conditions, and, even in the books, Stannis was never a very charismatic leader or imaginative tactician.

Finally, I can’t complain about the acceleration of events in Mereen. I was glad to see Penny cut from the show and to see Tyrion meet up with Dany at an earlier stage. That needed to happen. And since they’ve apparently cut out the Griff subplot, that frees up Varys, who needs a lot more screen time. I can hardly wait to see what he does to the Sons of the Harpy.

And the best thing about all of it is that they really haven’t spoiled much for Winds of Winter if Martin can just get his act together and finish it this year.
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Old 06-16-2015, 11:10 AM   #3036
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...I cant speak to the whole fate of Stannis thing, because it sounds like its largely a matter of pacing and I didnt see the show. Im not surprised that the Boltons got the better of him in the show, though. His troops were mainly mercenaries, trying to move through ridiculous winter conditions, and, even in the books, Stannis was never a very charismatic leader or imaginative tactician...
I seem to recall he was an incredible tactician. As the books pointed out, very few ever got the best of him (Randall Tarly and Tyrion namely being it to that point). Doesn't mean the Boltons won't but I'm sure hoping it is more spelled out in the book which I feel fairly certain it will be.

As far as your other points I largely agree. Still a phenomenal show but they set such a high standard already and we are possibly seeing the limit of what even HBO can do with an adaptation.

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Old 06-16-2015, 11:12 AM   #3037
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I cant speak to the whole fate of Stannis thing, because it sounds like its largely a matter of pacing and I didnt see the show. Im not surprised that the Boltons got the better of him in the show, though. His troops were mainly mercenaries, trying to move through ridiculous winter conditions, and, even in the books, Stannis was never a very charismatic leader or imaginative tactician.
What?

Stannis is supposed to be one of the best military minds in the world. I'm certain this battle will play out differently in the books.
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Old 06-16-2015, 11:14 AM   #3038
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What?

Stannis is supposed to be one of the best military minds in the world. I'm certain this battle will play out differently in the books.
Yeah bro. Stannis smashed the entire Iron Fleet (which outnumbered him) during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, that's some serious ****.
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Old 06-16-2015, 11:17 AM   #3039
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Was he really? The two things I recall most about him were that he survived a siege during the rebellion (when his men were eating rats and the onion knight saved them) and that, with the Westeros navy at his disposal he kicked some Ironborn butt.

But the former would be more a matter of stubbornness and the latter sounds more experience in maritime warfare.

More to the point, had he ever been in charge of an army that was almost entirely composed of mercenaries? Because even if you give the right orders, you never know if they'll be carried out.
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Old 06-16-2015, 11:20 AM   #3040
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Was he really? The two things I recall most about him were that he survived a siege during the rebellion (when his men were eating rats and the onion knight saved them) and that, with the Westeros navy at his disposal he kicked some Ironborn butt.

But the former would be more a matter of stubbornness and the latter sounds more experience in maritime warfare.

More to the point, had he ever been in charge of an army that was almost entirely composed of mercenaries? Because even if you give the right orders, you never know if they'll be carried out.
I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?

Stannis, to Theon Greyjoy
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Old 06-16-2015, 11:31 AM   #3041
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I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?

Stannis, to Theon Greyjoy
Storm's Reach= defending against siege (and also one of the strongest defense points in Westeros).
Dragonstone = Maritime siege
Greyjoys = Maritime combat with better ships and more men.
Mance Rayder = surprise attack against disorganized wildlings who had virtually no cavalry.

I'll still bet the Boltons get the better of him in the books, though I suspect it's going to be more a matter of luck and treachery than tactics.
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Old 06-16-2015, 11:39 AM   #3042
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And, as I said, even if I'm completely "off" about Stannis's ability to come up with imaginative tactics, I think we can all agree that if he has a weak point, it's in the loyalty of his troops - especially where, as in the show, they are just paid mercenaries.
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Old 06-16-2015, 12:22 PM   #3043
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And, as I said, even if I'm completely "off" about Stannis's ability to come up with imaginative tactics, I think we can all agree that if he has a weak point, it's in the loyalty of his troops - especially where, as in the show, they are just paid mercenaries.
He doesn't have sellswords in the book, he has his knights from Dragonstone who consider him the rightful king, and he has a bunch of pissed off northmen who loved Ned Stark and want to rescue his daughter.

If you want to geek out really hard check these out:
https://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/2...erfell-part-1/
https://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/2...erfell-part-2/
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:41 PM   #3044
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He doesn't have sellswords in the book, he has his knights from Dragonstone who consider him the rightful king, and he has a bunch of pissed off northmen who loved Ned Stark and want to rescue his daughter.

If you want to geek out really hard check these out:
https://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/2...erfell-part-1/
https://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/2...erfell-part-2/
Very good point and very good links. Really interesting stuff there and it's persuaded me to reconsider my whole position on this. (see, I can be reasonable!)

But it does underscore a problem for the show-writers. There's no way they have the screen-time to detail the various loyalty issues between the houses. And, unlike the book, his forces are primarily mercenary. And, there's no indication that he has any help from the hillsmen or other troops familiar with the terrain and conditions. Likewise, it's my understanding that they've cut out the entire Manderly subplot, so the key faultline in the Bolton forces is missing.

Interestingly enough, he substantially outnumbers the Boltons in the show, whereas, in the books, the Boltons actually have a slight advantage in manpower. (Which does raise the question of just how he planned to besiege them in the first place.)

That aside ... I can definitely see Stannis laying the sort of ice lake trap discussed in the links. Lots of foreshadowing as well.

But I still think things are going to go terribly awry for Stannis. He may win the battle and still die in the process. There just aren't that many people here fighting for him in particular. Most of them have ulterior motives of one sort or another and I can still see numerous opportunities for treachery.

Nonetheless, I can now understand better why people are upset at how his "show fate" was handled. And yet, as Martin said, once you start changing some things (which had to be done for streamlining purposes) bigger changes have to follow.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:31 PM   #3045
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But it does underscore a problem for the show-writers. There's no way they have the screen-time to detail the various loyalty issues between the houses. And, unlike the book, his forces are primarily mercenary. And, there's no indication that he has any help from the hillsmen or other troops familiar with the terrain and conditions. Likewise, it's my understanding that they've cut out the entire Manderly subplot, so the key faultline in the Bolton forces is missing.
Actually that's something I hadn't thought of. The "Game of Thrones" was still going strong in the book at this time. In the show, the last time we really saw it was the Red Wedding (arguably the Martells and the Vale as well) which is arguably one of the greatest scenes in Television history. They don't have the time to show the game anymore.

Man...just imagine what an extra 30 minutes several times a season could do.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:37 PM   #3046
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Don't worry guys I got this, epic fanfiction incoming; will let you know when I publish. Spoiler alert, Jon Snow is going to ride Ghost, on top of Rhaegal, dual wielding Blackfyre and Ice (which wasn't melted down after all) all the way to King's Landing where he will kill Littlefinger and Cersei. Oh but on the way he stops and kills the Boltons and the Freys.
Is that before or after he shoot dragonfire out of his ass to kill the white walkers
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:38 PM   #3047
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Very good point and very good links. Really interesting stuff there and it's persuaded me to reconsider my whole position on this. (see, I can be reasonable!)

But it does underscore a problem for the show-writers. There's no way they have the screen-time to detail the various loyalty issues between the houses. And, unlike the book, his forces are primarily mercenary. And, there's no indication that he has any help from the hillsmen or other troops familiar with the terrain and conditions. Likewise, it's my understanding that they've cut out the entire Manderly subplot, so the key faultline in the Bolton forces is missing.

Interestingly enough, he substantially outnumbers the Boltons in the show, whereas, in the books, the Boltons actually have a slight advantage in manpower. (Which does raise the question of just how he planned to besiege them in the first place.)

That aside ... I can definitely see Stannis laying the sort of ice lake trap discussed in the links. Lots of foreshadowing as well.

But I still think things are going to go terribly awry for Stannis. He may win the battle and still die in the process. There just aren't that many people here fighting for him in particular. Most of them have ulterior motives of one sort or another and I can still see numerous opportunities for treachery.

Nonetheless, I can now understand better why people are upset at how his "show fate" was handled. And yet, as Martin said, once you start changing some things (which had to be done for streamlining purposes) bigger changes have to follow.
To the bold- I don't think he's going to siege Winterfell. Stannis is going to take the Dreadfort, and force the Boltons to leave Winterfell.

https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/1...dark-fortress/
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:10 PM   #3048
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The battle at Hardhome easily made this one of the best seasons.
That was one of the best episodes of the entire tv series...

...except...

It made Jon's death so unbelievable. So Jon and a group of the nights watch escape the battle at Hardhome along with thousands of wildlings. People see Jon take out a wight...

Did no one tell anyone back at castle black what happened? Did no one tell them of the dangers beyond the wall? Did no one tell them that Jon is right and they need as many people as possible? Did no one tell them that Jon killed a wight?

All of that must have happened and if it did...then Jon would have never been killed because the whole reason he was killed was because those dilrods at the wall thought he was a traitor. After Hardhome he clearly isn't a traitor and everyone would have known it.

So while the episode was amazing...it was short sighted and in the end ruins a huge part of the books story. So many execution issues this season.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:35 PM   #3049
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To the bold- I don't think he's going to siege Winterfell. Stannis is going to take the Dreadfort, and force the Boltons to leave Winterfell.

https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/1...dark-fortress/
Unless Stannis has an army we don't know about on the march, I don't see how he could make it nearly 300 miles to the Dreadfort when he's been slowed by the snow to a mile a day.

And if he already has a secret army headed there, it would probably be too late for the Boltons to do anything about it either.
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Old 06-16-2015, 03:38 PM   #3050
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...
Did no one tell anyone back at castle black what happened? Did no one tell them of the dangers beyond the wall? Did no one tell them that Jon is right and they need as many people as possible? Did no one tell them that Jon killed a wight?
...
1. Jon definitely needs a new PR man.

2. The wights have a special power which is that no one believes anything about them, even if they've encountered them before, until it's too late!
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