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Old 01-06-2019, 11:43 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
So that means Wade was out of contract and Elway had 0 control over what Wade personally chose to do?

Good. Glad weíre all on the same page now, and whatís happening with Kubiak and the current staff isnít the same thing as happened with Wade, and you had no idea what you were taking about.
Wade wanted to stay. There have been plenty of interviews with him saying that. He was pushed out the door. I'm just saying it would have been nice for John to hang on to Wade the way he hangs on to Kubiak.
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Old 01-06-2019, 11:50 PM   #127
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Wade wanted to stay. There have been plenty of interviews with him saying that. He was pushed out the door. I'm just saying it would have been nice for John to hang on to Wade the way he hangs on to Kubiak.
It wasn't just John. VJ wanted his boi Joe Woods to be DC and also didn't want to be hands off of the defense like things were with Kubes and Wade. When Wade was with us, the defense was his entirely. No meddling from the HC, etc.
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Old 01-06-2019, 11:51 PM   #128
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True, but he only got it right with Peyton so far.
Paxton Lynch -1st round BUST
Shane Ray - 1st round BUST
Bradley Roby - 1st round BUST

That right there gets a GM fired under ordinary circumstances.
I'm hoping he turns it around, but the trajectory of this team is spiraling downward, both engines on fire.
Roby isn't a bust. He was a critical part of the no fly zone during the Superbowl and he is a starter in the league who isn't worth the money he will demand in free agency. Ray is a bust for Denver while he was here due to injuries and depth, but he can still play in the league. I see Ray following a Robert Ayers career path. He can be a starter for a lot of teams, but never a guy that will wow others.

Elway's first round drafting hasn't been as bad as some people here believe. It just hasn't been spectacular which is understandable since last year was the first time he has picked below 20

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Old 01-06-2019, 11:52 PM   #129
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True, but he only got it right with Peyton so far.
Paxton Lynch -1st round BUST
Shane Ray - 1st round BUST
Bradley Roby - 1st round BUST

That right there gets a GM fired under ordinary circumstances.
I'm hoping he turns it around, but the trajectory of this team is spiraling downward, both engines on fire.

Thats also not accurate, but it is an example of why its important to hit on a franchise QB. We get that guy right then misses in FA and the draft are not as obvious, and borderline players on teams without a franchise QB become vital cogs on teams with one.

Lynch is the only bust on your list there. Both Ray and Roby started for the team. We need to settle on the definition of what constitutes a good draft pick. Roby was a starter on a superbowl winning defense. Ray was a starter for us too, and unable to stay healthy. Both made more plays for the Broncos than Lynch did. Do we consider a draft selection good if they get a 2nd contract from the team? Not every player is going to be an all pro or a probowler, so we need a different way to classify misses and hits in the draft other than our simplistic analysis and just declaring them a bust because they are not the second coming of Von or Champ Bailey.

An exercise:

DB1: 88 tackles, 6 INT, 25 passes defensed last 2 seasons played for Denver.
DB2: 89 tackles, 5 INT, 17 passes defensed last 2 seasons played for Denver.
DB3: 92 tackles, 2 INT, 29 passes defensed last 2 seasons played for Denver.

Which one is Roby, and Talib and Harris?

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Old 01-06-2019, 11:54 PM   #130
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Your statement

So Kubiak is going to these other teams to work in their front office, or coach?


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Old 01-07-2019, 02:56 AM   #131
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I'm sorry but i am really not seeing the blind homerism for Elway that some people are accusing this board of. I'm seeing one or two Homerish comments here and there but what I'm seeing more of is people having the audacity to try and defend Elway in the face of withering criticism from a handful of anti-Elway zealots who think he's a drunk loser leading us to ruin.

Truth is usually somewhere in the middle. He's screwed up on some big calls recently no doubt, and that has put us in a hole which he now needs to get us out of, but i think that a still-fairly-recent superbowl win added to the last draft being one of his best ever gives him at least enough credit to get a chance to sort things out. But no, the sky is falling, Elway is driving the franchise off a cliff, every draft pick he ever made is a total bust etc etc etc

What amuses me is that fact that people are outraged that he's blocking Kubiak from interviewing elsewhere, but also outraged that Kubiak is likely coming back as OC!! Get your heads straight people, you can't have it both ways!!!

Yes Elway has made it clear he wants Kubiak to remain in the building in some capacity, and Kubiak seems to want to coach again but as OC not HC.
However that is also why Elway has gone for HC candidates who will fit that profile - guys who are either defensive coaches or not offensive playcallers. Most of those guys would be over the moon to have an OC like Kubes provided for them and the fact that he is wanted by the likes of Cincy and Atlanta proves he's better-regarded around the league than he is by some people around here.

Means Elway at least has a plan, and has tried to think about how to put things right, he's not just lining up tequila shots on the boardroom table and calling people at random.

If he gets it wrong I will grab my pitchfork and join the mob calling for his head, but right now I'm more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and watch to see how the plan develops.

For the record I was not excited about Kubes returning to us as HC first time around - my feelings were similar to others here who have criticised him for looking to the past, but then the result was a superbowl win! Yes the offense was pretty poor, but I think that was largely a personnel issue (especially on the o-line) which we have made some steps to address, but it was also (especially in 2015) about playing more conservatively becuase the defense was so awesome and we had issues at QB (broken-down Manning in 2015 and and raw Siemien in 2016). Happy to go on record as saying the offensive roster today is significantly improved over the 2016 version - that means Kubes has more to work with this time.

Yes, we still have QB issues, but this is an area of strength for Kubes plus we have draft captial to address

Not saying that everything is fine and that we'll win the superbowl next year. We have issues. Just saying that there is sufficient grounds for optimism to reserve judgement for now, and disagreeing with the suggestion that the approach is fatally flawed, that's all.....
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:57 AM   #132
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People donít know how to approach anything critical of Elway. It sends them into emotional hysterics.
Saya the guy who does the same thing when Wade or DT are mentioned. And let's not forget your TJ Ward meltdown.

But I get it, rules don't apply to you. You dish it out, but call it fan police when it's done to you.
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Old 01-07-2019, 03:58 AM   #133
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I'm sorry but i am really not seeing the blind homerism for Elway that some people are accusing this board of. I'm seeing one or two Homerish comments here and there but what I'm seeing more of is people having the audacity to try and defend Elway in the face of withering criticism from a handful of anti-Elway zealots who think he's a drunk loser leading us to ruin.

Truth is usually somewhere in the middle. He's screwed up on some big calls recently no doubt, and that has put us in a hole which he now needs to get us out of, but i think that a still-fairly-recent superbowl win added to the last draft being one of his best ever gives him at least enough credit to get a chance to sort things out. But no, the sky is falling, Elway is driving the franchise off a cliff, every draft pick he ever made is a total bust etc etc etc

What amuses me is that fact that people are outraged that he's blocking Kubiak from interviewing elsewhere, but also outraged that Kubiak is likely coming back as OC!! Get your heads straight people, you can't have it both ways!!!

Yes Elway has made it clear he wants Kubiak to remain in the building in some capacity, and Kubiak seems to want to coach again but as OC not HC.
However that is also why Elway has gone for HC candidates who will fit that profile - guys who are either defensive coaches or not offensive playcallers. Most of those guys would be over the moon to have an OC like Kubes provided for them and the fact that he is wanted by the likes of Cincy and Atlanta proves he's better-regarded around the league than he is by some people around here.

Means Elway at least has a plan, and has tried to think about how to put things right, he's not just lining up tequila shots on the boardroom table and calling people at random.

If he gets it wrong I will grab my pitchfork and join the mob calling for his head, but right now I'm more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and watch to see how the plan develops.

For the record I was not excited about Kubes returning to us as HC first time around - my feelings were similar to others here who have criticised him for looking to the past, but then the result was a superbowl win! Yes the offense was pretty poor, but I think that was largely a personnel issue (especially on the o-line) which we have made some steps to address, but it was also (especially in 2015) about playing more conservatively becuase the defense was so awesome and we had issues at QB (broken-down Manning in 2015 and and raw Siemien in 2016). Happy to go on record as saying the offensive roster today is significantly improved over the 2016 version - that means Kubes has more to work with this time.

Yes, we still have QB issues, but this is an area of strength for Kubes plus we have draft captial to address

Not saying that everything is fine and that we'll win the superbowl next year. We have issues. Just saying that there is sufficient grounds for optimism to reserve judgement for now, and disagreeing with the suggestion that the approach is fatally flawed, that's all.....
HC want their own staff, especially when it comes to coordinators. Kubiak isnít some offensive genius that teams are tripping over to get.
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Old 01-07-2019, 04:04 AM   #134
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It seems Elway not looking for a good HC,just one that will have Kubiak as their OC.
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Old 01-07-2019, 04:08 AM   #135
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Yeah that's nice, but ever since that SB Elway lost, Peyton,Ware, Talib, Wade and it's been all downhill. He's a really good guy when it comes to bringing in big names but the big names dont want in here anymore. Pac Man? Brock? Keesum?
That's the reality of the NFL. Lose a hall of QB/Pass rusher and CB and that's what happens.
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:35 AM   #136
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HC want their own staff, especially when it comes to coordinators. Kubiak isnít some offensive genius that teams are tripping over to get.
I wasn't saying he was, I was saying he was a respected coach that many of the candidates we are looking at might well be happy to have. Other candidates might not be so happy to have him, but we aren't; talking to those candidates.

Maybe we should? But the point is there is a plan, and we seem to be looking for the candidates that best fit that plan rather than trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:39 AM   #137
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Thats also not accurate, but it is an example of why its important to hit on a franchise QB. We get that guy right then misses in FA and the draft are not as obvious, and borderline players on teams without a franchise QB become vital cogs on teams with one.

Lynch is the only bust on your list there. Both Ray and Roby started for the team. We need to settle on the definition of what constitutes a good draft pick. Roby was a starter on a superbowl winning defense. Ray was a starter for us too, and unable to stay healthy. Both made more plays for the Broncos than Lynch did. Do we consider a draft selection good if they get a 2nd contract from the team? Not every player is going to be an all pro or a probowler, so we need a different way to classify misses and hits in the draft other than our simplistic analysis and just declaring them a bust because they are not the second coming of Von or Champ Bailey.

An exercise:

DB1: 88 tackles, 6 INT, 25 passes defensed last 2 seasons played for Denver.
DB2: 89 tackles, 5 INT, 17 passes defensed last 2 seasons played for Denver.
DB3: 92 tackles, 2 INT, 29 passes defensed last 2 seasons played for Denver.

Which one is Roby, and Talib and Harris?

Sorry, All 3 are HUGE busts. And after this offseason they wonít be in DEN.
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:41 AM   #138
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Thats also not accurate, but it is an example of why its important to hit on a franchise QB. We get that guy right then misses in FA and the draft are not as obvious, and borderline players on teams without a franchise QB become vital cogs on teams with one.

Lynch is the only bust on your list there. Both Ray and Roby started for the team. We need to settle on the definition of what constitutes a good draft pick. Roby was a starter on a superbowl winning defense. Ray was a starter for us too, and unable to stay healthy. Both made more plays for the Broncos than Lynch did. Do we consider a draft selection good if they get a 2nd contract from the team? Not every player is going to be an all pro or a probowler, so we need a different way to classify misses and hits in the draft other than our simplistic analysis and just declaring them a bust because they are not the second coming of Von or Champ Bailey.

An exercise:

DB1: 88 tackles, 6 INT, 25 passes defensed last 2 seasons played for Denver.
DB2: 89 tackles, 5 INT, 17 passes defensed last 2 seasons played for Denver.
DB3: 92 tackles, 2 INT, 29 passes defensed last 2 seasons played for Denver.

Which one is Roby, and Talib and Harris?

I donít need a long winded excercise.
Roby ONLY played well when he had those others around him.
He sucks otherwise. And heís gone.
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:42 AM   #139
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If teams are not tripping over them selfs for a chance at Kubiak why was two teams wanting to hire him?
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:42 AM   #140
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Roby isn't a bust. He was a critical part of the no fly zone during the Superbowl and he is a starter in the league who isn't worth the money he will demand in free agency. Ray is a bust for Denver while he was here due to injuries and depth, but he can still play in the league. I see Ray following a Robert Ayers career path. He can be a starter for a lot of teams, but never a guy that will wow others.

Elway's first round drafting hasn't been as bad as some people here believe. It just hasn't been spectacular which is understandable since last year was the first time he has picked below 20
Excuses, excuses. If Roby wasnít a bust, heíd have a contract in DEN right now.
They have plenty of money. Your flailing.
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:49 AM   #141
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So Kubiak is going to these other teams to work in their front office, or coach?



They wanted him as an OC.

We want him in the office but if the new head coach wants OC.
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:50 AM   #142
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Sly Ray and Paxton are horrific 1st round picks. Roby is a decent CB3. Heís not good enough to follow the better WRs.

Ideally You want your first round picks to sign their 2nd contracts. It hasnít been horrific all around 1st rounds but itís not pretty either.
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:55 AM   #143
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So that means Wade was out of contract and Elway had 0 control over what Wade personally chose to do?

Good. Glad weíre all on the same page now, and whatís happening with Kubiak and the current staff isnít the same thing as happened with Wade, and you had no idea what you were taking about.
several people on this board live life this way....so it should be no surprise to you.....
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:56 AM   #144
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I donít need a long winded excercise.
Roby ONLY played well when he had those others around him.
He sucks otherwise. And heís gone.

Probably be better to admit when you don't know a thing or don't want to argue it vs just saying "he sucks" or he is "a bust". He's not a #1 corner. He's a solid to good corner. He needs to get more turnovers. And as Broncos fans we have seen examples of horrific and terrible corner play. Roby is not even close to that.

And lack of a contract a week after the season ends is not proof he is a bust. You're grasping.

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Old 01-07-2019, 10:04 AM   #145
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Probably be better to admit when you don't know a thing or don't want to argue it vs just saying "he sucks" or he is "a bust". He's not a #1 corner. He's a solid to good corner. He needs to get more turnovers. And as Broncos fans we have seen examples of horrific and terrible corner play. Roby is not even close to that.

And lack of a contract a week after the season ends is not proof he is a bust. You're grasping.



In the past he was solid. This year there were about 100 CBs better according to PFF(I know some hate that site but a lot here take it as religion). In the present heís JAG.
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:08 AM   #146
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Probably be better to admit when you don't know a thing or don't want to argue it vs just saying "he sucks" or he is "a bust". He's not a #1 corner. He's a solid to good corner. He needs to get more turnovers. And as Broncos fans we have seen examples of horrific and terrible corner play. Roby is not even close to that.

And lack of a contract a week after the season ends is not proof he is a bust. You're grasping.

Lack of a contract is EXACTLY why heís a bust. He was drafted in the 1st round to be the #1 CB. Heís failed miserably. So much so, that he quit on his team.
His contract is up, and heís not been given a new one. Why in the world would a team NOT have their precious, young 1st round player not under contract going into his FA offseason? Cause heís a bust. Thatís why.
Teams donít let their best young players enter into FA. They do a contract before he even, ever gets their.
But yeah, you keep grasping for those excuses.
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:10 AM   #147
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Probably be better to admit when you don't know a thing or don't want to argue it vs just saying "he sucks" or he is "a bust". He's not a #1 corner. He's a solid to good corner. He needs to get more turnovers. And as Broncos fans we have seen examples of horrific and terrible corner play. Roby is not even close to that.

And lack of a contract a week after the season ends is not proof he is a bust. You're grasping.

the hell you talking about?

I don't care if posters provides any statistic or logic that makes complete sense. Even if socalorado is clueless moron, when socalorado says a player is a bust, that player is a bust.
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:12 AM   #148
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In the past he was solid. This year there were about 100 CBs better according to PFF(I know some hate that site but a lot here take it as religion). In the present heís JAG.
Just 100 CBís?
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:14 AM   #149
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Roby 7M a year he gonna get it.
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:16 AM   #150
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Lack of a contract is EXACTLY why heís a bust. He was drafted in the 1st round to be the #1 CB. Heís failed miserably. So much so, that he quit on his team.
His contract is up, and heís not been given a new one. Why in the world would a team NOT have their precious, young 1st round player not under contract going into his FA offseason? Cause heís a bust. Thatís why.
Teams donít let their best young players enter into FA. They do a contract before he even, ever gets their.
But yeah, you keep grasping for those excuses.

There are a lot of players right now with their 1st contracts expiring. I suppose for you this means they are all busts, since all of those teams have yet to offer new contracts, being that the 2018 is not exactly over yet. New contracts are usually offered for the new league year.

Do you really not know how this works?

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