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Old 02-16-2018, 08:53 AM   #76
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Manning played well in the game against the Steelers. In the first half they had like five dropped passes that really hurt. But in the AFCCG against the Patriots, Manning was pretty bad. He didn't have a positive impact on that game.
I will agree with you as far as Manningís physical impact. However, the mental influence he had (along with DWare) helped that team win a world championship. Guys around him played above their heads because of his swan song and leadership. To say Manning didnít have a positive impact really is short-sighted.
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Old 02-16-2018, 08:55 AM   #77
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I will agree with you as far as Manningís physical impact. However, the mental influence he had (along with DWare) helped that team win a world championship. Guys around him played above their heads because of his swan song and leadership. To say Manning didnít have a positive impact really is short-sighted.
Its also statistically not true. He wasn't great in that game, but he was hardly terrible. In the SB, he was terrible.

But there is something about trusting your guy. I just don't think Brock gets us there. And, really, what about Brock's career suggests that he would have? It's a diff animal in the playoffs. I think Belichick eats him alive if he plays.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:00 AM   #78
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Michael Irvin and Rod Smith both played the exact same number of years. Of course, Rod Smith was an undrafted free agent while Michael Irvin was the 11th overall selection in the first round.

Michael Irvin stats
Receptions: 750
Yards: 11,904
TDs: 65


Rod Smith stats
Receptions: 849
Yards: 11,389
TDs: 68

Michael Irvin is in the HOF. Rod Smith is not even getting consideration.

Just saying.
I'm a huge Rod Smith fan, but he just fell a little short of the HOF. But Michael Irvin was a clear HOFer. It's deeper than just the stats. Irvin had a great impact on his team. I'd take him over a number of HOF receivers who have greater stats.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:02 AM   #79
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Its also statistically not true. He wasn't great in that game, but he was hardly terrible. In the SB, he was terrible.

But there is something about trusting your guy. I just don't think Brock gets us there. And, really, what about Brock's career suggests that he would have? It's a diff animal in the playoffs. I think Belichick eats him alive if he plays.
Kubiak pulled the string at just the right time (SD game). That game resulted in HFA, and anyone watching it had to notice how the team rallied after Manning entered the game. That momentum and HFA (giving much credit to an All-world Defense, too) was enough to win SB50.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:02 AM   #80
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Let me repeat this again because it's been 2 years but after the 2015 Super Bowl, John Pagano was on the local morning show talking about the SD/Denver last game of the 2015 season. The game Denver in which Denver had to win to get HFA. The Charger DC said that when Brock was in, it was a simple base defense because he knew Brock would not audible out of the play call. When Manning game in, he had to adjust his defensive game plan because Manning would audible into the best play he thought would work. He said Manning out schemed him that game.

That right there is the hidden advantage Manning brought even though his physical skills had diminished.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:09 AM   #81
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Let me repeat this again because it's been 2 years but after the 2015 Super Bowl, John Pagano was on the local morning show talking about the SD/Denver last game of the 2015 season. The game Denver in which Denver had to win to get HFA. The Charger DC said that when Brock was in, it was a simple base defense because he knew Brock would not audible out of the play call. When Manning game in, he had to adjust his defensive game plan because Manning would audible into the best play he thought would work. He said Manning out schemed him that game.

That right there is the hidden advantage Manning brought even though his physical skills had diminished.
I just don't know why people complain about Peyton AT ALL. He came in, changed the culture, gave us 4 winning seasons (3 number 1 seeds...wtf!!) that ended in a chip.

WHATS TO COMPLAIN ABOUT
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:09 AM   #82
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I will agree with you as far as Manningís physical impact. However, the mental influence he had (along with DWare) helped that team win a world championship. Guys around him played above their heads because of his swan song and leadership. To say Manning didnít have a positive impact really is short-sighted.
This mental impact thing is a myth. Manning led an offense that was 1-11 on third down conversions, he turned the ball over twice, and he led them to six points on drives that started outside of the Panthers 15 yard line. That is a pathetic offensive performance. Where's the influence? It's mind blowing that the Broncos were able to win the game with that performance out of the offense. That defense was playing at an insane level, but it wasn't because Manning was playing.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:11 AM   #83
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This mental impact thing is a myth. Manning led an offense that was 1-11 on third down conversions, he turned the ball over twice, and he led them to six points on drives that started outside of the Panthers 15 yard line. That is a pathetic offensive performance. Where's the influence? It's mind blowing that the Broncos were able to win the game with that performance out of the offense. That defense was playing at an insane level, but it wasn't because Manning was playing.
In the Super Bowl, everyone agrees. You said he brought nothing to the AFC championship game, which was just wrong.

Though there is something to be said about leadership. Obviously, the D carried him in the Super Bowl. But when the game was in hand, the entire offense was saying "Peyton-****ing-Manning" as they were still on the field.

There's something to that.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:12 AM   #84
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Let me repeat this again because it's been 2 years but after the 2015 Super Bowl, John Pagano was on the local morning show talking about the SD/Denver last game of the 2015 season. The game Denver in which Denver had to win to get HFA. The Charger DC said that when Brock was in, it was a simple base defense because he knew Brock would not audible out of the play call. When Manning game in, he had to adjust his defensive game plan because Manning would audible into the best play he thought would work. He said Manning out schemed him that game.

That right there is the hidden advantage Manning brought even though his physical skills had diminished.
When Brock was in the game, the Broncos offense was moving the ball at will. On all four of the first half turnovers, the Broncos were in scoring position. All long drives where they moved the ball with ease. Three of the four turnovers were not Brock's fault. If they don't have those turnovers, that game is over by halftime.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:17 AM   #85
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This mental impact thing is a myth. Manning led an offense that was 1-11 on third down conversions, he turned the ball over twice, and he led them to six points on drives that started outside of the Panthers 15 yard line. That is a pathetic offensive performance. Where's the influence? It's mind blowing that the Broncos were able to win the game with that performance out of the offense. That defense was playing at an insane level, but it wasn't because Manning was playing.
If itís a myth, explain what happened the following year with basically the same Defense?
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:21 AM   #86
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I'm a huge Rod Smith fan, but he just fell a little short of the HOF. But Michael Irvin was a clear HOFer. It's deeper than just the stats. Irvin had a great impact on his team. I'd take him over a number of HOF receivers who have greater stats.
Rod Smith never missed one off-season work out his entire career. That included all volunteer workouts along with rookies only workouts. He was the only player for the Broncos to have that distinction. Hell, I dont know if any player in the league did that.

He was also one of the better blocking WRs in the league, and I have heard Alex Gibbs and TD comment how valuable that was.

He had the hiccup with the DUI, but that pales in comparison to the Irvin runins with the law. I do happen to think Irvin deserved to be in the Hof, but Smith has not one consideration. That, is the injustice.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:28 AM   #87
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If itís a myth, explain what happened the following year with basically the same Defense?
There were 5 games at least in 2015 that if the bounce did not go the Broncos way, they would have lost.

You discrediting the 5-2 record of Osweiler during rhat time?

Look up the 3rd down production against the Steelers, Pats and Panthers. It was horrific, and that was the most inept offense in SB history....winner or loser.

So.....
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:30 AM   #88
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In the Super Bowl, everyone agrees. You said he brought nothing to the AFC championship game, which was just wrong.

Though there is something to be said about leadership. Obviously, the D carried him in the Super Bowl. But when the game was in hand, the entire offense was saying "Peyton-****ing-Manning" as they were still on the field.

There's something to that.
The Broncos offense produced 13 points that day. The other TD came after Von Miller's interception set them up in scoring position. The offense scored three second half points, forcing the defense to repeatedly hold off the Patriots. If the offense could have gotten some points in the second half, the defense wouldn't of had to play nearly perfect late in that game. Manning's QBR for that game was 32.8. I just looked up the stats. 12 first downs all game. Just like in the Super Bowl, the defense won the AFCCG with no help from the offense.

So the offense is chanting Manning's name...as they are not scoring points!
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:35 AM   #89
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If itís a myth, explain what happened the following year with basically the same Defense?
The 2015 Broncos defense was historically great. The 2016 defense took a step back to just being great. With a terrible offense in both years, that's actually a big deal. The Broncos won a lot of tight games in 2015 because of the defense. In 2016, they were on the losing end of those tight games.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:41 AM   #90
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Rod Smith never missed one off-season work out his entire career. That included all volunteer workouts along with rookies only workouts. He was the only player for the Broncos to have that distinction. Hell, I dont know if any player in the league did that.

He was also one of the better blocking WRs in the league, and I have heard Alex Gibbs and TD comment how valuable that was.

He had the hiccup with the DUI, but that pales in comparison to the Irvin runins with the law. I do happen to think Irvin deserved to be in the Hof, but Smith has not one consideration. That, is the injustice.
All of that is true. Rod Smith was awesome. He just wasn't a HOFer. He fell a little short. I wouldn't use Michael Irvin to state Smith's case because I felt that Irvin was great, regardless of the stats. I would use Tim Brown. Brown, very good for a long time, like Smith. The major difference between the two was that Brown played more years, which allowed him to compile greater career stats. I really didn't feel that Brown was a HOFer. He was like Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis. Very good long enough to end up high on the career stats list. But never really great at any point. Irvin, even with lessor stats, was great.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:42 AM   #91
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The Broncos offense produced 13 points that day. The other TD came after Von Miller's interception set them up in scoring position. The offense scored three second half points, forcing the defense to repeatedly hold off the Patriots. If the offense could have gotten some points in the second half, the defense wouldn't of had to play nearly perfect late in that game. Manning's QBR for that game was 32.8. I just looked up the stats. 12 first downs all game. Just like in the Super Bowl, the defense won the AFCCG with no help from the offense.

So the offense is chanting Manning's name...as they are not scoring points!
You said he had zero positive impact that day. I don't agree with that statement whatsoever. He also didn't make mistakes and won the game. I never said he was great. I just said he wasn't "pretty bad." And the offense decided to turtle for much of the 2nd half. He was pretty broken down by then, but still the right guy for that job. And how can you argue with the results?

Also, you can't just take away that second TD. As we've seen the past two seasons, scoring TD's near the goal line is hardly a gimme. He got it there.

Just enough of the Peyton hate. Broncos fans are so weird.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:43 AM   #92
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I'm a huge Rod Smith fan, but he just fell a little short of the HOF. But Michael Irvin was a clear HOFer. It's deeper than just the stats. Irvin had a great impact on his team. I'd take him over a number of HOF receivers who have greater stats.
Based on the above statement, I have 2 questions.
Are you sober?
Are you even a Broncos fan?
The fact you stand with Irvin, who was a coke user and hooker ****er, while smith who is equally as deserving of a HOF nod, simply because he was undrafted and produced what he did, was an upstanding person.
TO didn't get in right away because he caused some ripples on his teams, Irvin get arrested for coke and prostitution and in you go. Lol. HOF voting is very flawed.
Give me smith all day everyday.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:59 AM   #93
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There were 5 games at least in 2015 that if the bounce did not go the Broncos way, they would have lost.

You discrediting the 5-2 record of Osweiler during rhat time?

Look up the 3rd down production against the Steelers, Pats and Panthers. It was horrific, and that was the most inept offense in SB history....winner or loser.

So.....
I will respect your belief that the Broncos would have won SB50 with BO at quarterback, because there is no way to truly know if that would have happened, for sure.

What I do know is that they won SB50 with PFM at quarterback. Change one aspect and itís a ripple effect. The rest as they say, is history.
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Old 02-16-2018, 10:02 AM   #94
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When Brock was in the game, the Broncos offense was moving the ball at will. On all four of the first half turnovers, the Broncos were in scoring position. All long drives where they moved the ball with ease. Three of the four turnovers were not Brock's fault. If they don't have those turnovers, that game is over by halftime.
2 of the turnovers were his fault i believe. either way - whatever.

ok, so brock is going to lead the Broncos and beat Pit & NE in the playoffs?

Brock had a few good games, def helped and stood pretty tall at times. but this narrative that Brock would have replicated is a bit off, no? history tells us this.

i'll take PFM over Brock any day to win a game, and the more important the game, the more I am leaning to take the future HoF.

Brock Osweiler had a few good games with a terrific D during the championship run. Just as importantly to this story, he has sucked for the majority of his career but is a competent backup that can execute a pro game plan.

that is the book on Brock and how he will be remembered.
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Old 02-16-2018, 11:37 AM   #95
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The Ravens D gave up 15 points in their 4 game Superbowl run. A little over a FG per game. I hate the Ravens more than any other team including the teams in the AFCW, but I have to give them their props. Incredible D.
And as if on cue ... at this very moment, 11:05 a.m. Pacific, starting on Showtime is Spike Lee's film The 25th Hour. Starring Edward Norton and co-starring - in a substantial role - Tony Siragusa as a Russian low-level mobster.

He was so good the first time I saw it ... I was, by the end of the film, convinced it was not Siragusa. And seeing what he looks like, that is one very impressive accomplishment.

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Old 02-16-2018, 05:12 PM   #96
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You said he had zero positive impact that day. I don't agree with that statement whatsoever.

Just enough of the Peyton hate. Broncos fans are so weird.
Peyton hate ... WTF!?

Heaven help the fool - anybody who feels that way is not just an ingrate of the highest order, he's completely unfamiliar with the ephemeral nature of onfield leadership. Its more than just statistics ... the offensive players in the Chargers game were effusive in describing the excitement felt when Manning entered the game.

Should point out he was then returning from THE ONLY TIME HE WAS BENCHED EVER.

He said more than once that without Brock, the team never would have made the Super Bowl.

And he's joked about the defense carrying him to that SB win ... I'm gonna find that video and post it.
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Old 02-16-2018, 05:29 PM   #97
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Based on the above statement, I have 2 questions.
Are you sober?
Are you even a Broncos fan?
The fact you stand with Irvin, who was a coke user and hooker ****er, while smith who is equally as deserving of a HOF nod, simply because he was undrafted and produced what he did, was an upstanding person.
TO didn't get in right away because he caused some ripples on his teams, Irvin get arrested for coke and prostitution and in you go. Lol. HOF voting is very flawed.
Give me smith all day everyday.
I didn't know that to be a Bronco fan, you couldn't be objective. I've been a Broncos fan for over 30 years, and I've been a member of this board since the very beginning.

Again, I'm a huge Rod Smith fan. But he simply fell a little short of the HOF. He was close, but not close enough. It's not just because he was undrafted. That actually has nothing to do with it. His resume falls a little short of the receivers who got in. Zero first team all pros and he didn't make the all decade team. That makes it tough to get in the HOF. All of the receivers of his era who made it in have first team all pros and they made the all decade team.

As for Irvin, yeah, he did all that stuff. But that off the field stuff didn't affect his abilities to be one of the driving forces behind them winning three Super Bowls. He was great, period. He was a great player on a great team. Smith was a very good player on a great team.

With TO, his problems weren't off the field. His off the field record is clean to my understanding. I don't think that he ever had any problems with the law. All of his problems were on the field. The locker room is pretty much an extension of the field. No team won with TO, which isn't surprising because he was a cancer. As talented and productive as he was, no team was going to win with him on the roster. TO was greater than Rod Smith, but I'd take Smith in a heartbeat over TO. While I don't think that Smith had the same impact as Irvin, he did help the team win Super Bowls. Put TO on those Broncos teams and it would have been a major problem. I'm pretty sure that he'd be pissed off with a run heavy game plan.
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Old 02-16-2018, 05:42 PM   #98
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2 of the turnovers were his fault i believe. either way - whatever.

ok, so brock is going to lead the Broncos and beat Pit & NE in the playoffs?

Brock had a few good games, def helped and stood pretty tall at times. but this narrative that Brock would have replicated is a bit off, no? history tells us this.

i'll take PFM over Brock any day to win a game, and the more important the game, the more I am leaning to take the future HoF.

Brock Osweiler had a few good games with a terrific D during the championship run. Just as importantly to this story, he has sucked for the majority of his career but is a competent backup that can execute a pro game plan.

that is the book on Brock and how he will be remembered.
It can be argued that only one of the turnovers was Brock's fault, and it's not even clear if that was all his fault. The fumble when the O line didn't pick up a blitzer. Brock should have thrown that ball away, or just not have fumbled it. Also, the O line should have made the adjustment and picked that blitzer up.

Sanders had a fumble, there was a dropped pass off of a perfectly thrown ball that got picked off, and on the other interception, Brock was hit as he threw the ball. Brock got rid of the ball on time. If I'm remembering right, he took his drop back then stepped right into the throw, but somebody totally missed their block and Brock got hit, causing the ball to flutter and get picked. DT was wide open inside the 20 yard line. If Brock doesn't get hit, it's an easy completion. Maybe DT makes the CB miss and scores a TD. That turnover was all on the O line.

As for the Broncos chances if they kept Manning on the bench in the playoffs, I still think that they win. Manning was terrible all year, while Brock was mediocre at best. I'm no Brock fan, and I'm glad that the Broncos didn't get stuck with his huge contract. But in 2015, he was better than Manning. If Manning had gone in the playoffs and played at least well, or even mediocre, I wouldn't be critical of his play. But in two of the three games, he was terrible. A mediocre Brock was better than a terrible Manning. If my choices are with the mediocre QB or the terrible QB, I'm going with the mediocre QB. When Manning came in, he didn't do any of the things that people are claiming that he did. The team won in spite of him.

If somebody argues that the end justifies the means, I can go with that, because they won the Super Bowl. That statement is pretty much saying that the decision didn't make logical sense, but it worked. But don't give me some convoluted argument that Manning had a positive impact on the playoff run. Manning didn't prove the Manning supporters right, but folks are claiming victory on that one simply because the Broncos won. The team didn't win for the reasons that the Manning supporters said that they would win.
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Old 02-16-2018, 05:48 PM   #99
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You said he had zero positive impact that day. I don't agree with that statement whatsoever. He also didn't make mistakes and won the game. I never said he was great. I just said he wasn't "pretty bad." And the offense decided to turtle for much of the 2nd half. He was pretty broken down by then, but still the right guy for that job. And how can you argue with the results?

Also, you can't just take away that second TD. As we've seen the past two seasons, scoring TD's near the goal line is hardly a gimme. He got it there.

Just enough of the Peyton hate. Broncos fans are so weird.
I actually don't hate Manning. I just don't think that he was the right choice heading into the playoffs, and I don't think that he saved the season like many people believe.

I think that Manning was instrumental in building that roster. Elway gets all the credit, but most of those free agents came because Manning was on the team. Without Manning, they wouldn't have built that historically great defense.
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Old 02-16-2018, 07:06 PM   #100
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The Michael Irvin - Rod Smith HOF thing ...


Take a look at the last ten WRs enshrined in the Hall, and you'll likely agree:

The issue is not "If Irvin went in, Rod Smith should go in!"

The issue should be: "Michael Irvin should NOT have gone in."
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