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Old 09-29-2017, 12:31 PM   #251
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As the George Carlin video gets at (posted a few posts above), a lot of what people call "patriotism" is just irrational symbolism. "It's make believe.

These people against kneeling don't have any special patriotic virtue, nor do I think they really make much association between protest and soldiers. I'm not even sure they are upset. It's just virtue signaling of a different form that they accuse the left of doing. We all have things that make us flinch when they symbolically go against certain values we hold dear.

This sort of primitive nationalism we see on display is a widespread virtue not just among conservatives, but among "the masses" in a lot of countries, particularly among those who don't really know much about the country or what is happening in the world. It's sufficient to go through some motions, know that America is winning a battle in some far out territory somewhere that one couldn't pick out on a map, etc.

These people aren't necessarily racist (as the left commonly accuses). Racism is just an esoteric, far-removed concept to many, much like the random country they could not identify on a map. But you don't even need to accept in racism in America to support people kneeling, standing, peeing, stretching, etc. during an anthem. It's just a ritual. You imparted meaning to it that other people don't need to share.
A symbol is valid only so far as it accurately reflects the existing reality. The same is true for patriotism. Symbols are not reality nor should they be held up as impervious to criticism when reality needs to be changed.
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:33 PM   #252
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This sort of primitive nationalism we see on display is a widespread virtue not just among conservatives, but among "the masses" in a lot of countries, particularly among those who don't really know much about the country or what is happening in the world.
You almost had something until this paragraph, where you revert to "Me smart, dey dumb."

Suffice it to say there are plenty of incredibly patriotic people who have a much better understanding of world events than you or I, and find that perspective only increases their sense of patriotism.

In reality, without patriotism in some form, there is no 'us' in the US.
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:39 PM   #253
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You almost had something until this paragraph, where you revert to "Me smart, dey dumb."

Suffice it to say there are plenty of incredibly patriotic people who have a much better understanding of world events than you or I, and find that perspective only increases their sense of patriotism.

In reality, without patriotism in some form, there is no 'us' in the US.
People are free to be inspired by whatever they want. The broader point is not to tell other people what they should find inspiring, or how they should express their inspiration.

I find no particular inspiration in standing up for two minutes and singing along to a song, although given a good singer, I find the tune catchy. Others do. It resonates with them, and that is fine. So does jazz music with others.

I am more interested in general principles.

The rules are ever-shifting and unclear. I'm unclear as to what it even means for some to say they are patriotic, what necessary conditions there are for patriotism, what is necessary but insufficient (can I sing to the anthem and kill someone, or kneel and donate to a charity? Do these offset in some coherent way). Can you be a patriot and dislike things about your country? Can you be a patriot and do everything you are told?

This whole episode reeks of incoherence by the people saying "shut up."

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Old 09-29-2017, 05:45 PM   #254
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https://sports.yahoo.com/cam-newton-...114210210.html

Legend ? bwwwaaaaahahahhahahaaaaaa!
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Old 09-29-2017, 07:24 PM   #255
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https://sports.yahoo.com/cam-newton-...114210210.html

Legend ? bwwwaaaaahahahhahahaaaaaa!
Yea newton is a pos.
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Old 09-29-2017, 07:27 PM   #256
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NFL favorability ratings sliced in half in past week Ouch.



http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2017...l-sliced-half/

And yea beribert is less biased than cbs, abc, WaPo, etc, they actually report facts
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:55 PM   #257
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:26 AM   #258
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Trump already won. 75% of America feels the National Anthem is not the appropriate time to protest. Sure most agree it's your right, but it's also other peoples right to look down on you for it.

Already the players are going to give in and stand. Trump can say thank you and move on.
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:36 AM   #259
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:38 AM   #260
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NFL favorability ratings sliced in half in past week Ouch.



http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2017...l-sliced-half/
Breitbart. L0L!

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Old 09-30-2017, 06:54 AM   #261
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NFL favorability ratings sliced in half in past week Ouch.



http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2017...l-sliced-half/

And yea beribert is less biased than cbs, abc, WaPo, etc, they actually report facts
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Old 09-30-2017, 07:17 AM   #262
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NFL favorability ratings sliced in half in past week Ouch.



http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2017...l-sliced-half/

And yea beribert is less biased than cbs, abc, WaPo, etc, they actually report facts
You're an idiot.
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:35 PM   #263
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See ya, pops.

We have the same constitutional rights. You don't have to like it but, you can't stop it.
Not trying to stop it. They have every right.


Im just exercising mine. Peace
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:47 PM   #264
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Most protests start out as a minority voice. That's the whole point.
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:48 PM   #265
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Why do so many people assume the flag and the anthem are only associated with the military? Is this country only about the military? Have we become so war-like that the only correlation we can make to patriotism is a military one?
Understood. But I didnt say military.


That flag not only represents the free ideals this country was founded on, no doubt.

Under that same flag, atrocities have been committed.

But there is the blood of heroes and the blood of innocents on that flag also. So to me, it pretty much represents us as a country, good, bad and ugly.

My father was a war hero. He was also someone who struggled dealing with his experience in Vietnam without the aid of alcohol. That led to many bad memories for me and my family. But we talked after those times. We apologized. We forgave. And with our scars we tried again to be the ideal we had in our hopeful minds.

The ideals are still there. And thats what those people died for. So these men can kneel any time they want. And I can shut off the TV any time I want.

Im against much of what they are and we probably want to get to the same destination as a society.....but I just dont step on the graves of the honored to do it.

I dont care if they dont look at it that way, nor anyone else.

I do what I do because of who I am and who I want to be.
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:48 PM   #266
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NFL favorability ratings sliced in half in past week Ouch.



http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2017...l-sliced-half/

And yea beribert is less biased than cbs, abc, WaPo, etc, they actually report facts
Electrolytes! It's what plants crave!
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Old 10-07-2017, 01:58 PM   #267
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If only you cared as much about equality and innocent people suffering from actual injustice and people getting gunned down by cops with no real oversight. Maybe you should rethink your life when you give more of a **** about a piece of fabric and a song when people who are your neighbors and countrymen are suffering unjustly and people are begging to bring attention to it.

Especially when they say they aren't doing it to disrespect the military and veterans. I find it's more patriotic to support people who want to make us better as a country by pointing out our flaws then scream them down.
I think youre making an assumption that I didnt speak. If you want clarity, I dont mind sharing it. Much of what kills our dialogue in these charged topics is assuming intent for others. No man can discern the intent in the heart of another. I would assume you agree....but until you speak for yourself, we would not know it to be so.

Let me share for myself rather than have you speak things here that are not true.

I care about social injustice and dont at all agree with people getting innocently gunned down by police officers.
I dont have an issue with pointing out these social injustices.

I also believe there are far more injustices taking place in this country on a daily basis than just black lives matter agenda, racism, white supremacy, etc,
but that doesnt at all demean the stance of protest they are taking.

I dont agree with sensationalization of social injustices, skewing the view of the uninformed public for social or political reasons-like running a banner emblazoned with the word RACISM accross national headlines when you have no evidence for it......inciting the people to an injustice that has not taken place in a particular act.

For instance. In the case of Michael Brown. Why was it racism? If they had reported that a police officer was under investigation for shooting a young man in Ferguson, things might be different. Why was the 'white' officers actions deemed to be committed for racial reasons? That is an injustice to him and his family. Simply because he was white? If a black officer had pulled the trigger, what then is the issue? If Michael Brown were white, then what was the issue?
The issue should simply be justice. Did the police officer act justly, or not. If the officer expressed racial epitaphs while he was acting, then it may be deemed racism.
A jury of Michael Browns peers and the peers of the officer deemed the officer innocent. So what do we see from the media? Justice is served? Or black lives dont matter because this boy, who robbed an innocent local business owner, put himself on the wrong side of social servants by committing a CRIME?
If you want to speak about social injustice, then let me point out the biggest one for you that you dont seem to understand. Its not racism.
The biggest social injustice in this case is that Michael Brown was not parented to be a person who respects the laws of us all. The laws of that flag, which represents us all. This is a place we as a country can individually do some good rather than having multimillionaire players simply kneeling. And if you dont think its important to teach your kids not to walk into other peoples property and take what does not belong to them without their consent, then you better not send your adult children to my house because they could get seriously hurt....FOR NO REASON. There is NO REASON to raise your children to disobey the rules that are put here to guide us. And if you dont like the law against stealing, then there is a judicial process in this free country that you can enact in order to try and get that law repealed. But until then, the law is here FOR social justice. Michael Brown did not understand this. So those parents need to look in the mirror when they ask themselves why their son was SHOT unnecessarily. He unnecessarily disobeyed an officer of the law, paid for by his parents, and tried to disarm him or some other law-ignorant action. We will never know because this poor young man is now dead. I dont want to simplify or generalize all injustices or at all say we do not need to take an invested interest, not just an interest...we do.

I can, and do disagree with any expression of protest that I feel is not a call to unity, but inflammatory.

If Colin Kaepernick had enough overall social understanding to speak to unity rather than disunity, he, in my opinion, would have been far more affective.
He basically said, I do not belong to this country, (because he put himself outside of the same social construct he is deriding) and in front of all of its citizens, disrespected the 'piece of linen' that this 'country' says represents them ALL. Not some.....ALL. As in "WE THE PEOPLE" are the country. Not the land we stand on.

If CK had said something different when asked why he was kneeling, it may have been more effective. Such as, "Well first of all, I want to say that in no way do I mean to disrespect any of the fallen who have given the ultimate sacrifice on MY behalf, so that I can be free to speak, live and be. I was kneeling in prayer (or hope), that in light of the ideals represented by our flag and the sacrifices of so many, that we might be able to do better together than we have been. I watch my TV, I see on the internet, young men being gunned down unnecessarily in the streets. I cried for these young people and I hope you cried too. We HAVE to do better. We HAVE to act together. We HAVE to take seriously our national pride. How can we take pride in the ideals of our flag, our country...liberties, free will, free life, democracy, the right to BE.......if we arent more aggressively acting? How high does the flag fly if our family, our United States, are unraveling from within? This same flag that men who understood that it represented our integrity as a nation, died trying to stop it from touching the ground, so reverent were they of the people living free at home while they were fighting? Because of our freedoms, I make millions of dollars playing a sport you watch every day. I am able to display my God given talents in a way meant to display the best of us together. And while Im playing, some of our best young youths are being shot down in towns like Ferguson for no good reason whatsoever. My hope, is that our president, our congress, our police force, our judicial system, can do better. BUT.......it begins with me. And it begins with you at home. Parents....we need to call ourselves to be better because we need to teach our children better. Children, if youre experiencing trials at home, pledge yourselves to be a person to help overcome our shortcomings. I ask that at our next national anthem, we all kneel together as a nation, not in disrespect to the fallen or our disparaged integrity, but in prayer. Prayer in recognition that we need to pay as much attention to the social injustices taking place every day with the same fervency that we do when we watch our favorite football teams every sunday. God bless America, our country, and all those across the globe."

If he had said that......I believe things would be quite different.

I would be kneeling on sundays.
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Old 10-07-2017, 02:23 PM   #268
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Understood. But I didnt say military.


That flag not only represents the free ideals this country was founded on, no doubt.

Under that same flag, atrocities have been committed.

But there is the blood of heroes and the blood of innocents on that flag also. So to me, it pretty much represents us as a country, good, bad and ugly.

My father was a war hero. He was also someone who struggled dealing with his experience in Vietnam without the aid of alcohol. That led to many bad memories for me and my family. But we talked after those times. We apologized. We forgave. And with our scars we tried again to be the ideal we had in our hopeful minds.

The ideals are still there. And thats what those people died for. So these men can kneel any time they want. And I can shut off the TV any time I want.

Im against much of what they are and we probably want to get to the same destination as a society.....but I just dont step on the graves of the honored to do it.

I dont care if they dont look at it that way, nor anyone else.

I do what I do because of who I am and who I want to be.
This country wasn't founded on "free ideals". It wa founded on white supremacy and the only people who had that freedom were white males. The stated ideals in the Declaration of Independence that we RIGHTLY treasure, were none-the-less mere window dressing, designed to express our right to give King George the finger. People who fought for this country did so for all kinds of reasons, and for many of them it had little to do with protecting our freedom. With few exceptions, most of our wars have had little or nothing to do with out freedom.

The ironic thing about what you're suggesting...that kneeling like this is an insult to those who died in service...is that those same ideals you think should be ascribed to the motives of those who died in service, are the same ones these people are kneeling to have.

What you should be asking is, why do we dishonor the memories of those who fought for everyone's right to freedom and equality by denying it to some? How insulting is that to those who died?
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Old 10-07-2017, 02:45 PM   #269
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A jury of Michael Browns peers and the peers of the officer deemed the officer innocent. So what do we see from the media? Justice is served? Or black lives dont matter because this boy, who robbed an innocent local business owner, put himself on the wrong side of social servants by committing a CRIME?

If you want to speak about social injustice, then let me point out the biggest one for you that you dont seem to understand. Its not racism.

The biggest social injustice in this case is that Michael Brown was not parented to be a person who respects the laws of us all. The laws of that flag, which represents us all. This is a place we as a country can individually do some good rather than having multimillionaire players simply kneeling. And if you dont think its important to teach your kids not to walk into other peoples property and take what does not belong to them without their consent, then you better not send your adult children to my house because they could get seriously hurt....FOR NO REASON. There is NO REASON to raise your children to disobey the rules that are put here to guide us•. And if you dont like the law against stealing, then there is a judicial process in this free country that you can enact in order to try and get that law repealed. But until then, the law is here FOR social justice. Michael Brown did not understand this. So those parents need to look in the mirror when they ask themselves why their son was SHOT unnecessarily.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're completely unfamiliar with the highly irregular aspects of the Michael Brown jury and the actions of the prosecutor, but I do have one question;

How the ****ing hell would you know how Michael Brown's parents raised him?

You have zero knowledge of that.
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Old 10-07-2017, 02:53 PM   #270
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This fairy tale bull**** about patriotism is just that, bull****. You gotta be out of your rabid ass mind if you think my family members fought in all of those wars just so my rights can be trampled on.

Judging by most of this thread, I guess only white people serve in the military.
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Old 10-07-2017, 03:16 PM   #271
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This fairy tale bull**** about patriotism is just that, bull****. You gotta be out of your rabid ass mind if you think my family members fought in all of those wars just so my rights can be trampled on.

Judging by most of this thread, I guess only white people serve in the military.
The entire dialogue that pairs the flag and the national anthem to the military is BS. You don't have to be a vet to be patriotic and some of the least patriotic people I've ever met were those who did serve, probably because they saw the real side of the "truth" about our military action around the world. Standing up during a song means jack ****. Standing up for what is right...does.
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Old 10-07-2017, 04:24 PM   #272
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I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're completely unfamiliar with the highly irregular aspects of the Michael Brown jury and the actions of the prosecutor, but I do have one question;

How the ****ing hell would you know how Michael Brown's parents raised him?

You have zero knowledge of that.
the same parents that shouted "burn this mother down"

and incited a riot?
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Old 10-07-2017, 05:17 PM   #273
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the same parents that shouted "burn this mother down"

and incited a riot?
Wrong.
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:23 PM   #274
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Wrong.
Michael Brown's stepfather at rally: 'Burn this b**** down!'

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/us/mic...deo/index.html

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Michael Brown's stepfather consoled the dead teen's distraught mother after Monday's controversial grand jury announcement and then turned to the crowd of demonstrators, saying, "Burn this motherf---er down" and "Burn this b**** down," according to a New York Times video.
The comments by Brown's stepfather, Louis Head, came shortly before an eruption of rage by some protesters over the decision not to indict police Officer Darren Wilson in the August shooting death of 18-year-old Brown in Ferguson, Missouri.
A row of businesses on West Florissant Avenue, a major thoroughfare in the St. Louis suburb, was engulfed in flames Monday night. Police cars and vehicles at a nearby dealership were turned into fireballs. There were so many blazes that firefighters couldn't reach every one.

In The New York Times video, Brown's mother, Lesley McSpadden, is visible in the crowd Monday night in Ferguson.
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:00 PM   #275
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Michael Brown's stepfather at rally: 'Burn this b**** down!'

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/us/mic...deo/index.html
People who just lost a child shouldn't have their entire lives judged by their actions in the moment.

However, Michael Brown wasn't raised by his mother or his stepfather, but by his grandmother Desuirea Harris, this woman:



She assumed the responsibility because his mother was only 16 when she gave birth, and was dropping out of school to try to support her son. Like many black women who raise grandchildren, she came to her aid. This woman was in church when she got the news he was dead, and collapsed from grief, then had to be carried out.

But maybe if you dig long and hard enough you can find something bad about her to post also. I'm sure she's not perfect.
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