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Old 06-04-2014, 09:09 AM   #26
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Ok assuming Koppen was the starter after Walton, that would mean clady Walton Koppen. Who's the 4th starter to go down?
Wasn't Kuper also supposed to return but ultimately he couldn't?
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Old 06-04-2014, 09:14 AM   #27
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I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but want to throw out some numbers suggesting how good PM is at not getting sacked.

His last year in Indy, 2010, he was sacked 16 times. The next year, without Manning, Indy QB's were sacked 35 times. For the mathematically challenged, that's more than double.

In 2011, the year before Manning was a Bronco, Denver QB's were sacked 42 times. Manning was sacked 21 times as a Bronco in 2012. So he cut the number in half.

So, even if you want to attribute some of those numbers to other factors, you have to admit Manning makes a huge difference to an O-line statistically.
And who was that back up QB in Indy? I bet you can't remember his name so I'll help you out, I think his name was Painter? As another poster has already pointed out, one of the reasons Manning chose the Broncos is because of the oline. If you are wondering why the Broncos QBs were sacked 42 times before Manning arrived I'll tell you why--Tim Tebow and pocket sloth Orton, that's why.

I don't deny that Manning makes the oline better, but I also know that if you put Brees or Wilson or Kaepernick or Brady or any other decent QB behind this oline they'd love it too.
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Old 06-04-2014, 09:16 AM   #28
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Wasn't Kuper also supposed to return but ultimately he couldn't?
Once Vasquez came aboard I never thought Kuper to be the starter back then going into week 1.
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Old 06-04-2014, 10:52 AM   #29
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Walton would have started last year had he got healthy. He was the starter the year before, when he got hurt. Koppen was not signed again so Walton was most certainly going to be our starter. Manram was a backup guard for us, he was not looked at as being the starter.

Sorry dunken. I said 2 different things. I said we were on our 4th starter, which we were but I also said we lost 4 starters, which would be wrong, it would have been 3 at that time.

I agree, once we signed Vasquez, and knowing Kuper's injuries, I never looked at him as the starting RG again. I think we all had hoped he could come back and just be a destroyer at the C position.
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:04 AM   #30
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I don't deny that Manning makes the oline better...
I would hope not, because he may be one of the best ever at reading defenses and reacting/adjusting accordingly.

I do think our O-line is very good. It just might not be quite as good as the numbers suggest because Manning so profoundly impacts those numbers. I think there's a reason that mediocre talents like Beadles, Ramirez, and Clark usually looked pretty good for the Broncos last year, and that Vasquez appeared to have his best year as a pro, and that the Broncos survived the loss of Clady. That reason is Peyton Manning. I also think there's a reason that same O-line got destroyed in the Super Bowl. That reason is that they're not quite as good as the regular season and AFC playofss may have suggested.

Last edited by TonyR; 06-04-2014 at 11:38 AM..
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:30 AM   #31
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I would hope not, because he may be one of the best ever at reading defenses and reacting/adjusting accordingly.

I do this our O-line is very good. It just might not be quite as good as the numbers suggest because Manning so profoundly impacts those numbers. I think there's a reason that mediocre talents like Beadles, Ramirez, and Clark usually looked pretty good for the Broncos last year, and that Vasquez appeared to have his best year as a pro, and that the Broncos survived the loss of Clady. That reason is Peyton Manning. I also think there's a reason that same O-line got destroyed in the Super Bowl. That reason is that they're not quite as good as the regular season and AFC playofss may have suggested.
Well I'll defend them a little and then agree some as well. When you lose your all world LT, that hurts a ton. No two ways around that fact. But also, I think partly what's at fault there, was we just became too reliable on dink and dunk. We were too much of a rhythm and timing offense and could not switch gears into smash mouth. Yes that's partly the OL's fault but it really should have been practiced more during the season and used more in games. It's sooooo easy to sit back and let PM do his thing, it makes sense. But Elway now knows it needs to be almost like it was when he had Davis come in. Things became less about Elway, or rather should I say, became not overly dependent on Elway to always have big games, and a power running game was the balancing feature. That's what we need now. I'm sure PM could throw for 5000+ yards again this year but we better watch out and not fall down that same rabbit hole twice. We better not just have the outlook that we need a tougher defense and let's just let our offense continue from where it was last year. I think that would be a mistake. The offense NEEDS more balance. We need a stronger running game, not just here or there, but on a consistent level.
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Old 06-04-2014, 12:38 PM   #32
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Well I'll defend them a little and then agree some as well. When you lose your all world LT, that hurts a ton. No two ways around that fact. But also, I think partly what's at fault there, was we just became too reliable on dink and dunk. We were too much of a rhythm and timing offense and could not switch gears into smash mouth. Yes that's partly the OL's fault but it really should have been practiced more during the season and used more in games. It's sooooo easy to sit back and let PM do his thing, it makes sense. But Elway now knows it needs to be almost like it was when he had Davis come in. Things became less about Elway, or rather should I say, became not overly dependent on Elway to always have big games, and a power running game was the balancing feature. That's what we need now. I'm sure PM could throw for 5000+ yards again this year but we better watch out and not fall down that same rabbit hole twice. We better not just have the outlook that we need a tougher defense and let's just let our offense continue from where it was last year. I think that would be a mistake. The offense NEEDS more balance. We need a stronger running game, not just here or there, but on a consistent level.
I agree wholeheartedly with all of this. I had hoped that Manning with his neck condition would have been more open to a better running game to keep defenses from doing just what Seattle did. I was hoping the Broncos would have signed Marcel Reese from the Raiders because he is very good in a lot of roles -receiving, blocking as a fullback, of a feature back when you want to pound it out.
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Old 06-04-2014, 12:43 PM   #33
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Well I'll defend them a little and then agree some as well. When you lose your all world LT, that hurts a ton. No two ways around that fact. But also, I think partly what's at fault there, was we just became too reliable on dink and dunk. We were too much of a rhythm and timing offense and could not switch gears into smash mouth. Yes that's partly the OL's fault but it really should have been practiced more during the season and used more in games. It's sooooo easy to sit back and let PM do his thing, it makes sense. But Elway now knows it needs to be almost like it was when he had Davis come in. Things became less about Elway, or rather should I say, became not overly dependent on Elway to always have big games, and a power running game was the balancing feature. That's what we need now. I'm sure PM could throw for 5000+ yards again this year but we better watch out and not fall down that same rabbit hole twice. We better not just have the outlook that we need a tougher defense and let's just let our offense continue from where it was last year. I think that would be a mistake. The offense NEEDS more balance. We need a stronger running game, not just here or there, but on a consistent level.
Yep. Even in a league where they cater to passing offense by rules that allow easier passing. There still needs a balance. I think Ball is going to explode though.
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Old 06-04-2014, 01:10 PM   #34
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Zona, I don't disagree. But, they need to prove they're capable of being a "power running" team. The Manning offense really doesn't lend itself to this style. It didn't in Indy, it hasn't thus far in Denver.
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