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Old 01-05-2018, 06:11 PM   #26
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:19 PM   #27
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https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/five...s-in-2018.html


https://gizmodo.com/chinas-crackdown...-fu-1821820017
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:21 PM   #28
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Either you donít know what cryptocurrency is, or you donít know what a ponzi scheme is.
that's going to leave a mark.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:30 PM   #29
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I have a "few" bucks into some alt-coins. The first ship has sailed on BTC, ETH, BCH, and LTC, but another ship will be sailing once Wall Street ETF's get into the game in the coming months.

Easiest way right now for US customers to buy BTC, ETH, BCH, and LTC with USD is to sign up with Coinbase/GDAX. Unfortunately, it takes about 4-7 days to transfer your cash in eventhough they are in the US. I don't really like Coinbase/GDAX because they always "experience technical difficulties" when things get extremely volatile and transfers out to the alt-coin exchanges can be slow. I don't really mess with the big coins, but I did make a nice gain on the ETH run up yesterday. The exchange I use for alt-coins is Binance. If you are planning to buy alt-coins, transfer your USD from Coinbase into GDAX, buy BTC or ETH, then transfer to the alt-coin exchange to avoid the transfer fee Coinbase charges.

Anyway, blockchain DLT is old news and will die because the transaction fees will cost more than transactions themselves. Ripple (XRP) is getting a lot of hype right now, but they are in bed with the banks which defeats the purpose of cryptos. A lot of coins are just hype and don't even have a whitepaper.

Direct Acyclic Graph DLT cryptos are the future, and I think they will be the last ones standing.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:36 PM   #30
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I don't really know how it all works. Where can someone buy into these things? Obviously bitcoin is too much for me to even consider, but what are the up and coming alternatives? How does one actually "sell" a cryptocurrency and get the funds? Aren't banks and other places kind of iffy on huge transfers of cash coming in from selling them?
There's a lot to know, to be sure. Once you get into cryptocurrencies, the rabbit hole is deep.

Where can someone buy into these things?


Only on exchanges. We are in the early days of exchanges, so there's no doubt that many of them are, uh, janky. But there are some good ones too. I use Binance. It's currently closed because of the bum rush that has happened in the New Year. I suggest getting on Binance when you get a chance. I can't recommend any others (because I haven't used many of them - there are 7500 of them), but the most popular are Bittrex, Bithumb, Poloniex, GDAX, Bitstamp. You can find more here: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/volume/24-hour/

Please note that you cannot use "dollars" at any of these exchanges. You must have cryptocurrency sent there to use them (ie. BTC, ETH, or LTC). The only place you can currently exchange fiat (government) dollars is through Coinbase.com. I would suggest using Litecoin or Ethereum, and Bitcoin fees are outrageous, especially as your stake grows.

I do not understand why bitcoin is doing what it's doing. I do not invest in bitcoin. I do understand the altcoins, however, as well as the technology itself. I believe we're on the frontier of a fundamental change in society much like how the Internet changed society. Blockchain will revolutionize industries, and bring accountability to society like we've never imagined.

Obviously bitcoin is too much for me to even consider, but what are the up and coming alternatives?

Not true. Cryptocurrencies are measured to the 8th decimal point. You can buy 0.00000001 of a cryptocurrency, including bitcoin. In cryptoparlance, they call this amount a single "satoshi" in honor of the creator of bitcoin. You'll hear people say, "that coin is worth 7000 sat," which equals .00007000 (or roughly $1.18 at the current BTC price, which is constantly moving).

what are the up and coming alternatives?

Coinmarketcap.com is your friend:
https://coinmarketcap.com

In this world, what matters the most is Market Cap. Next is the available supply. After that the price. The fundamentals of each coin matter too - that's arguably the most important thing, but that depends on your strategy. I know very successful day traders who make money reading the signals and know little to nothing about the coin's fundamentals. They're nuts if you ask me. I come from the advanced tech world, so I'm interested in the technology and what it aims to solve, and whether there is an actual need. This, to me, is the exciting thing about cryptocurrency - the potential it has to fundamentally change society.

How does one actually "sell" a cryptocurrency and get the funds?
Through a fiat exchange like Coinbase.com. You can also find Bitcoin ATMs at https://coinatmradar.com/. There is one where I live that I have taken my wife to and pulled out cash from to show my wife - who is puzzled by all of this.

Aren't banks and other places kind of iffy on huge transfers of cash coming in from selling them?

Oh hell yes. This is a huge threat to government and established order. It might even be the single biggest disruption to established order in human history. Obama called it like having a "swiss offshore account in your pocket." Jamie Dimon said he'd fire anyone for trading in cryptocurrencies. It has the power, indeed, to destroy banking, our income tax system, our current economy. This is not kids play here. Cryptocurrencies democratizes banking and currency taking the power out of the hands of the top 1% and putting it into the hands of the people. That's a controversial statement because in many ways it can be wrong - but that's the spirit of it. The establishment sees this as a thread. It's believed that Russia and China tried to sink bitcoin right before Christmas, but failed. India is very aggressive about keeping their population away from it. The news media in the US has been going into overdrive to trash on the phenomenon.

The point is, this is not kids play, and it is very real. The reason people are making money right now is because something called the network effect:



Not even 1% of the world is onto cryptocurrencies right now. But eventually, more and more will get on them, and the market will settle down and stabilize. We're at the beginning of this right now, so it's very volatile both upwards and downwards. I've seen my portfolio dive bomb by $5k, and then make it up and more within a week. I've lost a lot of sleep because there are not enough rabbit holes for me to jump down and learn new things. It's zany.

If you get into cryptocurrency, you need to make sure you have a set of these...



This is not investing advice. In fact, it's the opposite. Turn back now. Take SoCal's advice and get some sleep. But for those who take the plunge, I'm caught in the current and it's become something of an obsession for me. I won't give investment advice, but I will talk about what I'm doing and give my opinion on things.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:37 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Arkie View Post
Either you donít know what cryptocurrency is, or you donít know what a ponzi scheme is.
How does bitcoin command value?
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:47 PM   #32
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How does bitcoin command value?
Everybody knows how many bitcoins exist, and how many will ever exist. Itís like a commodity. The market sets its value.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:52 PM   #33
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Everybody knows how many bitcoins exist, and how many will ever exist. Itís like a commodity. The market sets its value.
So, bitcoins can never be added? The market sets the value is kind of vague - don't you think?

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Old 01-05-2018, 06:54 PM   #34
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No. It is truly transformational. But what player to bet on? Those bit coins of yours might not be worth as much when a bank issues a crypto currency in the near future. From a technology perspective, Bitcoin is not the best..just the first one with traction.
Right now the banks are adopting a cryptocurrency protocol called Ripple, which they use with their backend overseas transfers. To my knowledge, there is no bank that is considering offering a cryptocurrency, and if they did, they'd likely buy it from one of the market cap winners that exist right now. Perhaps they'd try to develop their own, but honestly, I doubt it would get much adoption at this point.

Russia, however, is talking about launching a crypto-ruble in an attempt to seize the market there. But over here and in Asia and the UK, the cryptocurrency cat is out of the bag. It will be very difficult to get it back in.

I agree with you about Bitcoin. I have my favorites, but in the end I forsee a world where currency exchanges are common. I see a day when you go to Disneyland, but Disneyland tokens, and purchase everything you want at Disneyland using these tokens. I see web browser protocols that pay you for the information you give to advertisers, giving you more control of your data. I see supply chain management being tracked down to the 5 foot radius. I see being able to track your wine down to the grape. I see voting systems where people register, and then can audit their vote on the blockchain to ensure accurate results. I see counterfeit handbags being thwarted with a simple sweep from a mobile device. It will change ticket sales. Car sales. Intellectual property. There is so much utility in the blockchain, it's ridiculous.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:55 PM   #35
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How does bitcoin command value?
The same way the dollar does. People determine what they'll pay/do for it.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:56 PM   #36
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So, bitcoins can never be added?
No, most if not all cryptos are deflationary.

They can't be just printed out of thin air like the USD that really isn't backed by anything other than the US military if you think about it.

There are a ton of BTC "out there somewhere" that were stolen in the Mt. Gox fiasco, and supposedly the founder/founders are sitting on a lot as well.

If someone wanted to sink the price of BTC, releasing some of those would definitely do it.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:57 PM   #37
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So, bitcoins can never be added?
An average of 12.5 bitcoin get added every 10 minutes. The maximum number will be 21 million reached in the year 2140.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:00 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by delany View Post
No. It is truly transformational. But what player to bet on? Those bit coins of yours might not be worth as much when a bank issues a crypto currency in the near future. From a technology perspective, Bitcoin is not the best..just the first one with traction.
I expect bitcoin to remain the "reserve crypto currency" regardless of whatever else comes down the pipe... major caveats to this of course
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:01 PM   #39
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Forget about this overly speculative nonsense.

Invest in tried and true blue chips and solid REITs, particularly in the health care sector given the aging demographics of our country.
Need to get some posts going in that old investing thread. Liked reading your takes.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:01 PM   #40
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I read once that Warren Buffett doesn't invest in any company if he doesn't understand what they do. I apply that rule here, I can't get my head around this ****, try as I might.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:06 PM   #41
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One thing I should note is that Japan accepts cryptocurrency as legally accepted means of payment:


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Old 01-05-2018, 07:07 PM   #42
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I expect bitcoin to remain the "reserve crypto currency" regardless of whatever else comes down the pipe... major caveats to this of course
I agree with this. Even if it's just original nerds clutching pearls, bitcoin will always be around.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:08 PM   #43
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There's a lot to know, to be sure. Once you get into cryptocurrencies, the rabbit hole is deep.

Where can someone buy into these things?


Only on exchanges. We are in the early days of exchanges, so there's no doubt that many of them are, uh, janky. But there are some good ones too. I use Binance. It's currently closed because of the bum rush that has happened in the New Year. I suggest getting on Binance when you get a chance. I can't recommend any others (because I haven't used many of them - there are 7500 of them), but the most popular are Bittrex, Bithumb, Poloniex, GDAX, Bitstamp. You can find more here: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/volume/24-hour/

Please note that you cannot use "dollars" at any of these exchanges. You must have cryptocurrency sent there to use them (ie. BTC, ETH, or LTC). The only place you can currently exchange fiat (government) dollars is through Coinbase.com. I would suggest using Litecoin or Ethereum, and Bitcoin fees are outrageous, especially as your stake grows.

I do not understand why bitcoin is doing what it's doing. I do not invest in bitcoin. I do understand the altcoins, however, as well as the technology itself. I believe we're on the frontier of a fundamental change in society much like how the Internet changed society. Blockchain will revolutionize industries, and bring accountability to society like we've never imagined.

Obviously bitcoin is too much for me to even consider, but what are the up and coming alternatives?

Not true. Cryptocurrencies are measured to the 8th decimal point. You can buy 0.00000001 of a cryptocurrency, including bitcoin. In cryptoparlance, they call this amount a single "satoshi" in honor of the creator of bitcoin. You'll hear people say, "that coin is worth 7000 sat," which equals .00007000 (or roughly $1.18 at the current BTC price, which is constantly moving).

what are the up and coming alternatives?

Coinmarketcap.com is your friend:
https://coinmarketcap.com

In this world, what matters the most is Market Cap. Next is the available supply. After that the price. The fundamentals of each coin matter too - that's arguably the most important thing, but that depends on your strategy. I know very successful day traders who make money reading the signals and know little to nothing about the coin's fundamentals. They're nuts if you ask me. I come from the advanced tech world, so I'm interested in the technology and what it aims to solve, and whether there is an actual need. This, to me, is the exciting thing about cryptocurrency - the potential it has to fundamentally change society.

How does one actually "sell" a cryptocurrency and get the funds?
Through a fiat exchange like Coinbase.com. You can also find Bitcoin ATMs at https://coinatmradar.com/. There is one where I live that I have taken my wife to and pulled out cash from to show my wife - who is puzzled by all of this.

Aren't banks and other places kind of iffy on huge transfers of cash coming in from selling them?

Oh hell yes. This is a huge threat to government and established order. It might even be the single biggest disruption to established order in human history. Obama called it like having a "swiss offshore account in your pocket." Jamie Dimon said he'd fire anyone for trading in cryptocurrencies. It has the power, indeed, to destroy banking, our income tax system, our current economy. This is not kids play here. Cryptocurrencies democratizes banking and currency taking the power out of the hands of the top 1% and putting it into the hands of the people. That's a controversial statement because in many ways it can be wrong - but that's the spirit of it. The establishment sees this as a thread. It's believed that Russia and China tried to sink bitcoin right before Christmas, but failed. India is very aggressive about keeping their population away from it. The news media in the US has been going into overdrive to trash on the phenomenon.

The point is, this is not kids play, and it is very real. The reason people are making money right now is because something called the network effect:



Not even 1% of the world is onto cryptocurrencies right now. But eventually, more and more will get on them, and the market will settle down and stabilize. We're at the beginning of this right now, so it's very volatile both upwards and downwards. I've seen my portfolio dive bomb by $5k, and then make it up and more within a week. I've lost a lot of sleep because there are not enough rabbit holes for me to jump down and learn new things. It's zany.

If you get into cryptocurrency, you need to make sure you have a set of these...



This is not investing advice. In fact, it's the opposite. Turn back now. Take SoCal's advice and get some sleep. But for those who take the plunge, I'm caught in the current and it's become something of an obsession for me. I won't give investment advice, but I will talk about what I'm doing and give my opinion on things.
Good write up Taco, thank you. I am so tempted but the factory of sadness is a downer that is real.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:09 PM   #44
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I agree with you about Bitcoin. I have my favorites, but in the end I forsee a world where currency exchanges are common. I see a day when you go to Disneyland, but Disneyland tokens, and purchase everything you want at Disneyland using these tokens. I see web browser protocols that pay you for the information you give to advertisers, giving you more control of your data. I see supply chain management being tracked down to the 5 foot radius. I see being able to track your wine down to the grape. I see voting systems where people register, and then can audit their vote on the blockchain to ensure accurate results. I see counterfeit handbags being thwarted with a simple sweep from a mobile device. It will change ticket sales. Car sales. Intellectual property. There is so much utility in the blockchain, it's ridiculous.
I dont know that I have seen it spelled out so cleanly. Mad respect.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:09 PM   #45
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An average of 12.5 bitcoin get added every 10 minutes. The maximum number will be 21 million reached in the year 2140.
Got it. Where can I buy bitcoin and is there a vig?
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:13 PM   #46
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that's going to leave a mark.
Nope.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:59 PM   #47
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I'm up to $25k on a portfolio that I grew from $2.5k. I started the last week of October.

Once I reach $50k, which will probably be by the end of the month, I will pull out my $2.5k and build a new fence that I've needed for a year. Once I reach $75K, I'll pull out $2.5k and take a vacation. Once I reach $100k, I'll pull out $2.5k and put a down payment on a Jeep Wrangler that I've been drooling over.

I understand the technology. Cryptocurrency isn't going away.
As long as you realize it's gambling.
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Old 01-05-2018, 08:11 PM   #48
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I read once that Warren Buffett doesn't invest in any company if he doesn't understand what they do. I apply that rule here, I can't get my head around this ****, try as I might.

I can understand this, completely.

Let me explain it like this.

In the beginning, man traded shells as money. There was a limited supply, and it required effort to mine. Now soldiers could buy food without actually doing the farming. Women could sell clothes without having to barter for food that would spoil before they could use them. People could go out and "mine" for shells, but given the time and the technology, it was very difficult to get much out of it. But if you found them, you could use them, and it added to the economy. The more people that used them, the more utility they had.

But they couldn't be stored well. They'd chip and break down. And metal was invented. Again, people could mine for metal, but it was hard work, and the market couldn't just be flooded with it. Coins would be minted and put in the treasury. Workers and soldiers could be paid. Towns could trade with towns. Hooray.

Eventually accounting was invented with the introduction of the Ledger. This became a very powerful tool which allowed for banking, allowing people to trade notes instead of heavy coins. Huzzah! Now it's easier to trade between large distances in the kingdom. Eventually, double entry bookkeeping - Huzzah, now I can conscript large armies and organize the transfer of resources. Empires rose on their expert use of double-entry accounting practices. Revolutions happened as well.

Then came the advent of central banking, which is a WHOLE 'nother can of worms. Nations and industries rose on central banking. Money funnelled to the top, whether that was the plan or not.

Eventually, the central bankers talked Nixon into de-linking the currency from the gold standard. He, in turn, managed to get a killer deal with the OPEC nations to invoice oil sales in US Dollars, and simple paper has been off to the races ever since, backed only by confidence that... uh... backed by confidence that... that, I guess other people would take it? This is where it gets fuzzy.

The bottom line is that people do accept dollars backed only by the paper it's printed on for whatever reason that is. That's a whole different can of worms that can get very political. Let's avoid that discussion for now.

Now Bitcoin comes along and implements something called "momentum accounting" or the "triple entry ledger."




It's a complicated form of accounting that the blockchain makes very easy. This essentially builds the ledger INTO the money and makes it impossible for that money to be counterfeited or double spent. Imagine for a moment that you were forced to record the serial number of a dollar as you received it, and then report it in real time to a public ledger owned by the IRS. Also imagine that the person you hand that dollar to had to do the same thing. This is what cryptocurrencies generally do. You can track the "bits" that you own all the way back to the machine that mined them.

A lot of people will argue that there is no intrinsic value in cryptocurrencies. This is inaccurate. The "trustless" ledger is what gives them their value. It ensures a sort of "security" in that you have proof of ownership. Now that said, possession is still 9/10ths of the law. This is still a young space, and there are still hackers and scammers out there. We are in the very infancy of this whole thing, and there are still a lot of lessons to learn.

Hope that helps. This is going to go a lot like the Internet or mobile phones. People will ignore it at first figuring that they don't need to worry about it. Then one day, they'll find out that they'll need to buy certain crypto-tokens to get discounts on gas, or groceries. They'll discover a movie project that will give you a certain amount of their token to help fund their movie. They'll want to join the token movement of whatever political party they are affiliated with and use those tokens for special rewards.

In the end what it means is a chance to move away from a centralized monetary system to a very distributed one where local towns will have local tokens that confer tax benefits to the people using them. States may have their own tokens based on popular coin ledgers. Satellites will be launched to push the network to space, and rather than shipping heavy pallets of currency to space tourism destinations like orbiting hotels and moon colonies, the value will be transferred through virtual tokens.

Blockchain currency is not going away. But it won't be here without a lot of struggle either. This stuff is plenty game changing, and that's going to be a big pill for the old order to swallow.
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Old 01-05-2018, 08:15 PM   #49
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As long as you realize it's gambling.
What isn't gambling in the world we live in today? I bought a house at the turn of the millenium. I know plenty about gambling from that experience. The bastards that put us through that didn't so much get a slap on the wrist by the purported most progressive president in American history. I learned through that that EVERYTHING is a gamble. Everything.
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Old 01-05-2018, 08:38 PM   #50
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I'm up to $25k on a portfolio that I grew from $2.5k. I started the last week of October.

Once I reach $50k, which will probably be by the end of the month, I will pull out my $2.5k and build a new fence that I've needed for a year. Once I reach $75K, I'll pull out $2.5k and take a vacation. Once I reach $100k, I'll pull out $2.5k and put a down payment on a Jeep Wrangler that I've been drooling over.

I understand the technology. Cryptocurrency isn't going away.
Cool! Maybe upgrade to vb.1.1.1a soon?
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