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Old 06-15-2012, 12:48 PM   #976
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Originally Posted by Blueflame View Post
What he said is: (exact quote)
"How do you develop a quarterback who can't physically throw the football at an NFL level?"

Your reply was:
"I don't know the answer to that one. I was talking about Tebow, who can." (the bolded 2 words are what I'm addressing with my next comment).

So... if, at the NFL level, QBs are expected to be able to consistently put the football where it has to be ("throwing the football at an NFL level") and Tebow cannot do that consistently, then I believe your assertion that "he can"... is patently false.
It is not "patently false." He said he can't "physically throw at the NFL level" so he can't be taught the rest. You're adding in more advanced and nuanced notions of (1) consistency, something that can be increased over time; and (2) putting it where it needs to go, which involves decision-making.

It's fine to disagree -- you think the kid is not NFL quarterback material. But don't try to bootstrap your disagreement in opinion with me throwing out "patent" falsehoods. The guy overstated his case, and I lodged my disagreement.

Quote:
It's purely business; Tebow's skillset was not what they wanted so they took the first opportunity they got to upgrade to someone who does. And in the process, they put Tebow into a better situation for his career too. Win/win from my perspective.
This is how I pretty much see it, but I see quite a lot of posting that the "circus" is the reason Tebow is no longer here, that Tebow's fans are to blame, etc. So I like to lodge my disagreement with that.

I also see a lot of overblown, overestimation of the impact of said "circus." It's become a meme, a cliche, a trite expression that people use to try and get some feelings out about Tebow. I think they sense they've sort of rushed to judgment on him, so they grasp about for some sort of reason -- like "It was the circus. Tebow the player and person are fine, but the circus is so unbearable that he requires unusual action."

For example, you suggested the other day there would be some sort of palpable problem with Bruschi, and there wasn't. That was just overestimation on your part. And I think it's because you have pent up feelings about Tebow that you have to let out against "the circus."

In many minds, like yours, Tebows fans are represented by that one we had here (name escapes me -- that worst one). Even though on an intellectual level, you know he was a troll and an extreme outlayer, on an emotional level, you're having a dialog with him, as if he is the representative.
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Old 06-15-2012, 12:49 PM   #977
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A) Tebow is a walking QB controversy with an enormous, rabid fanbase which made it difficult to keep him in a backup position, even behind a guy like Manning, especially given his success last season
B) Tebow needs to improve his passing and reading of defenses and the team didn't think he would get to that level, even after three years behind a guy like Manning
C) Tebow requested a trade
D) Manning requested that Tebow be traded because of A
E) Both A and B
F) Both C and E
G) Both D and E

Last edited by Shananahan; 06-15-2012 at 12:51 PM..
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Old 06-15-2012, 12:54 PM   #978
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A) Tebow is a walking QB controversy with an enormous, rabid fanbase which made it difficult to keep him in a backup position, even behind a guy like Manning, especially given his success last season
B) Tebow is needs to improve his passing and reading of defenses and the team didn't think he would get to that level, even after three years behind a guy like Manning
C) Tebow requested a trade
D) Manning requested that Tebow be traded because of A
E) Both A and B
F) Both C and E
G) Both D and E
(H) Tebow is a fascinating, polarizing figure, who has inspired extreme dislike and extreme fanhood for years, going back to college. Any attempt to explain and compartmentalize his inexplicable popularity (and dislike) is oversimplification -- for some reason, he causes experts and fans alike to have diametrically opposed opinions about him.

And there's no need to "resolve" why -- it's fun to watch the show.
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Old 06-15-2012, 12:55 PM   #979
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And the real reason he was traded, in my mind? He's an alpha, a dominating personality and presence. He will be fully in the hunt for a starting gig over the next 3 to 5 years. And I think the team recognized he deserves to get started on that shot.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:01 PM   #980
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And the real reason he was traded, in my mind? He's an alpha, a dominating personality and presence. He will be fully in the hunt for a starting gig over the next 3 to 5 years. And I think the team recognized he deserves to get started on that shot.
He's an alpha!? unless tebow switches to h-back or TE,he won't be in the league in 3-5 yrs.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:03 PM   #981
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(H) Tebow is a fascinating, polarizing figure, who has inspired extreme dislike and extreme fanhood for years, going back to college. Any attempt to explain and compartmentalize his inexplicable popularity (and dislike) is oversimplification -- for some reason, he causes experts and fans alike to have diametrically opposed opinions about him.

And there's no need to "resolve" why -- it's fun to watch the show.
It's just a shame popularity doesn't make a good QB. It does seem to make a good ST player.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:14 PM   #982
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I genuinely didn't think Elway was affected by all that -- Woody Paige, tweets, or fans. I think he made a football decision.

Which is why I tend to push back at all the statements that it was the "circus" that caused the Tebow trade. I don't believe that of Elway.
I guess we just fundamentally disagree. It would affect anyone, being called a moron in the press and by the fans on a daily basis, especially after doing what he's done for this team and franchise.

The questions began to wear on him. He had to go into interviews having every word so perfectly chosen in order not to offend any of the Tebow nutjobs that were afoot. You REALLY think that didn't affect how he viewed the whole situation?
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:14 PM   #983
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It is not "patently false." He said he can't "physically throw at the NFL level" so he can't be taught the rest. You're adding in more advanced and nuanced notions of (1) consistency, something that can be increased over time; and (2) putting it where it needs to go, which involves decision-making.

It's fine to disagree -- you think the kid is not NFL quarterback material. But don't try to bootstrap your disagreement in opinion with me throwing out "patent" falsehoods. The guy overstated his case, and I lodged my disagreement.
I disagree with your position that Tebow has proven that "he can" play the QB position at the NFL level, which by nature demands consistency. Again, my take is that an inconsistent passer won't be playing in the NFL for long, much less starting.

Quote:
This is how I pretty much see it, but I see quite a lot of posting that the "circus" is the reason Tebow is no longer here, that Tebow's fans are to blame, etc. So I like to lodge my disagreement with that.

I also see a lot of overblown, overestimation of the impact of said "circus." It's become a meme, a cliche, a trite expression that people use to try and get some feelings out about Tebow. I think they sense they've sort of rushed to judgment on him, so they grasp about for some sort of reason -- like "It was the circus. Tebow the player and person are fine, but the circus is so unbearable that he requires unusual action."

For example, you suggested the other day there would be some sort of palpable problem with Bruschi, and there wasn't. That was just overestimation on your part. And I think it's because you have pent up feelings about Tebow that you have to let out against "the circus."

In many minds, like yours, Tebows fans are represented by that one we had here (name escapes me -- that worst one). Even though on an intellectual level, you know he was a troll and an extreme outlayer, on an emotional level, you're having a dialog with him, as if he is the representative.
I believe that Tebow's fans (the circus) demanded that he be elevated to a starting role before he was anywhere near ready. He would have benefited greatly by having the luxury of extra time (as a backup) to work on his problem areas (mechanics, footwork and decision-making). IMHO.

Hey, it's fine by me if you don't believe it's a distraction to the team for the media to focus on a single player to the exclusion of all other players on the team... even if that player is a backup. Reality (as evidenced by post-Tebow remarks from his former teammates) is that yes, there is some resentment and friction brought on by it. It does not have a positive effect on the locker room or team cohesion.

It's the offseason, Jay... pressure (from "the circus") in New York will increase, as will the media's coverage of Tebow... the nanosecond that Sanchez starts to struggle.

I'm very much aware that not all Tebow fans are "MacGruders". But there is, in fact, a fairly large demographic that only watch the NFL for Tim Tebow... and know very little about the NFL or how it differs from college ball. They just know they like Tim and are fully prepared to relentlessly rip into anyone and everyone who fails to kiss his butt.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:17 PM   #984
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I disagree with your position that Tebow has proven that "he can" play the QB position at the NFL level, which by nature demands consistency. Again, my take is that an inconsistent passer won't be playing in the NFL for long, much less starting.



I believe that Tebow's fans (the circus) demanded that he be elevated to a starting role before he was anywhere near ready. He would have benefited greatly by having the luxury of extra time (as a backup) to work on his problem areas (mechanics, footwork and decision-making). IMHO.

Hey, it's fine by me if you don't believe it's a distraction to the team for the media to focus on a single player to the exclusion of all other players on the team... even if that player is a backup. Reality (as evidenced by post-Tebow remarks from his former teammates) is that yes, there is some resentment and friction brought on by it. It does not have a positive effect on the locker room or team cohesion.

It's the offseason, Jay... pressure (from "the circus") in New York will increase, as will the media's coverage of Tebow... the nanosecond that Sanchez starts to struggle.

I'm very much aware that not all Tebow fans are "MacGruders". But there is, in fact, a fairly large demographic that only watch the NFL for Tim Tebow... and know very little about the NFL or how it differs from college ball. They just know they like Tim and are fully prepared to relentlessly rip into anyone and everyone who fails to kiss his butt.
what would have really helped Tebow out was a better Kyle Orton or Brady Quinn.

holy crap do those guys suck at playing QB.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:18 PM   #985
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It is not "patently false." He said he can't "physically throw at the NFL level" so he can't be taught the rest. You're adding in more advanced and nuanced notions of (1) consistency, something that can be increased over time; and (2) putting it where it needs to go, which involves decision-making.

It's fine to disagree -- you think the kid is not NFL quarterback material. But don't try to bootstrap your disagreement in opinion with me throwing out "patent" falsehoods. The guy overstated his case, and I lodged my disagreement.



This is how I pretty much see it, but I see quite a lot of posting that the "circus" is the reason Tebow is no longer here, that Tebow's fans are to blame, etc. So I like to lodge my disagreement with that.

I also see a lot of overblown, overestimation of the impact of said "circus." It's become a meme, a cliche, a trite expression that people use to try and get some feelings out about Tebow. I think they sense they've sort of rushed to judgment on him, so they grasp about for some sort of reason -- like "It was the circus. Tebow the player and person are fine, but the circus is so unbearable that he requires unusual action."

For example, you suggested the other day there would be some sort of palpable problem with Bruschi, and there wasn't. That was just overestimation on your part. And I think it's because you have pent up feelings about Tebow that you have to let out against "the circus."

In many minds, like yours, Tebows fans are represented by that one we had here (name escapes me -- that worst one). Even though on an intellectual level, you know he was a troll and an extreme outlayer, on an emotional level, you're having a dialog with him, as if he is the representative.
You can't really be serious.

Stories are still being printed DAILY in Denver about Tebow, his parents' anniversary, what he's doing, whether or not he shaved, a girl taking a cutout of him to prom, and other assorted bull****. And you REALLY don't think it's a circus?

Open your eyes, man.

Just because you're not AT the circus doesn't mean there's something else under that tent you're driving by every day.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:45 PM   #986
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You can't really be serious.

Stories are still being printed DAILY in Denver about Tebow, his parents' anniversary, what he's doing, whether or not he shaved, a girl taking a cutout of him to prom, and other assorted bull****. And you REALLY don't think it's a circus?

Open your eyes, man.

Just because you're not AT the circus doesn't mean there's something else under that tent you're driving by every day.
Oh, you're talking about the media coverage? Yes, that is unbelievable. I've never seen anything like it in my life.

I'm talking about the talk of "You know what the problem is with Tebow? It's his fans." The attempt to make the problem be his "fans."

The fact is that he moves the needle -- people are interested in him. Even people that don't like him. Even people walking the street. He's an odd mystery as to why it happens. And the media coverage is just off the charts.

I don't think it is the reason he was dumped by the Broncos. I think it was a football decision.

And I think there's too much of a tendency of those over on the "vaguely negative" side (whether "haters" or just "I think he lacks . . . ") to blame everything on his fans.

The fact is that he is an enigma, a unique player.

There have been 100 chances for him to fall off the radar screen into obscurity -- but at every turn he does something unexpected.

If he hadn't had a winning streak, he would have been toasted.

After that KC game, a dumpster fire, if they hadn't won the Pittsburgh game, it would have been "close the book." But he played well against Pittsburgh. Forget the excuses -- he pulled the trigger in that game and played well.

Now it's starting all over again -- I'm telling you, he's looking good in NY. They don't know what we know. He's throwing it quicker, tighter, better spiral. He's still no Tom Brady, but he's getting better. He's never had an OTA and mini-camp like this. That offense they run is more tailored to his style, and with the wildcat they'll have him running, he's going to be a heck of a player for them.

He still throws the shortest stuff the worst.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:55 PM   #987
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what would have really helped Tebow out was a better Kyle Orton or Brady Quinn.

holy crap do those guys suck at playing QB.
Tebow needed to be drafted by a team that already had an unchallengeable starter like Brees or Rodgers so that the circus had no possibility of creating a QB controversy and he could have time to address his areas of weakness without the constant pressure.

And yes, Orton and Quinn do indeed suck... Orton's career has already lasted longer than I expected it to.
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Old 06-15-2012, 02:04 PM   #988
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(H) Tebow is a fascinating, polarizing figure, who has inspired extreme dislike and extreme fanhood for years, going back to college. Any attempt to explain and compartmentalize his inexplicable popularity (and dislike) is oversimplification -- for some reason, he causes experts and fans alike to have diametrically opposed opinions about him.
So...... the circus?
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Old 06-15-2012, 02:05 PM   #989
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Tebow needed to be drafted by a team that already had an unchallengeable starter like Brees or Rodgers so that the circus had no possibility of creating a QB controversy and he could have time to address his areas of weakness without the constant pressure.

And yes, Orton and Quinn do indeed suck... Orton's career has already lasted longer than I expected it to.
well yeah...too bad the clown that drafted Tebow thought Matt Cassel was better than Jay Cutler

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Old 06-15-2012, 02:59 PM   #990
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Oh, you're talking about the media coverage? Yes, that is unbelievable. I've never seen anything like it in my life.

I'm talking about the talk of "You know what the problem is with Tebow? It's his fans." The attempt to make the problem be his "fans."
The problem is that the two (the media and the fans) feed off the momentum the other gives. THAT is the problem. The circus is the whole thing put together, but ignoring the fans' role in it is just disingenuous.
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:02 PM   #991
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Oh, you're talking about the media coverage? Yes, that is unbelievable. I've never seen anything like it in my life.I'm talking about the talk of "You know what the problem is with Tebow? It's his fans." The attempt to make the problem be his "fans."

The fact is that he moves the needle -- people are interested in him. Even people that don't like him. Even people walking the street. He's an odd mystery as to why it happens. And the media coverage is just off the charts.

I don't think it is the reason he was dumped by the Broncos. I think it was a football decision.

And I think there's too much of a tendency of those over on the "vaguely negative" side (whether "haters" or just "I think he lacks . . . ") to blame everything on his fans.

The fact is that he is an enigma, a unique player.

There have been 100 chances for him to fall off the radar screen into obscurity -- but at every turn he does something unexpected.

If he hadn't had a winning streak, he would have been toasted.

After that KC game, a dumpster fire, if they hadn't won the Pittsburgh game, it would have been "close the book." But he played well against Pittsburgh. Forget the excuses -- he pulled the trigger in that game and played well.

Now it's starting all over again -- I'm telling you, he's looking good in NY. They don't know what we know. He's throwing it quicker, tighter, better spiral. He's still no Tom Brady, but he's getting better. He's never had an OTA and mini-camp like this. That offense they run is more tailored to his style, and with the wildcat they'll have him running, he's going to be a heck of a player for them.

He still throws the shortest stuff the worst.
it wasn't the media making a debacle in the 1st game of the season last yr. they weren't cheering tebow in game 1. It wasn't channel 9 news putting up billboards.
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:17 PM   #992
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it wasn't the media making a debacle in the 1st game of the season last yr. they weren't cheering tebow in game 1. It wasn't channel 9 news putting up billboards.
Wow, fresh off a 4-12 season and fresh into the same tired QB pissing a home Raider game away to open the season, and the fans get restless. Must be Tebow's fault.

I think we can finally diagnose it for what it is. TDS.
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:21 PM   #993
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Wow, fresh off a 4-12 season and fresh into the same tired QB pissing a home Raider game away to open the season, and the fans get restless. Must be Tebow's fault.

I think we can finally diagnose it for what it is. TDS.
I'm not blaming tebow for the idiots in the stands.

BTW,how many QBs has denver had where in the 1st game of the season were fans already getting "restless" & chanting for the back-up QB?

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Old 06-15-2012, 03:23 PM   #994
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I'm not blaming tebow for the idiots in the stands.
Do you imagine it would've been any different if say Curtis Painter were hoodied up on the sidelines?
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:42 PM   #995
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it wasn't the media making a debacle in the 1st game of the season last yr. they weren't cheering tebow in game 1. It wasn't channel 9 news putting up billboards.
That's one thing that confuses me -- do you think the ones cheering "Tebow" at the games were these supposed "noobie" fans of Tebow, who have very little exposure to the NFL, and care about nothing but Tebow? Because my thinking is the ones out there at games in Denver were Denver Broncos fans. So I resist the notion that there's this group of toxic "Tebow fans" that show up and make it impossible for a franchise (and have followed him to NY). Seems like bona fide Denver Broncos fans also had a thing or to to say.
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:44 PM   #996
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It wasn't channel 9 news putting up billboards.
The billboard was put up by a local merchant, and it had an advertisement for his website. Is that what's being attributed to "fans?" Seems like he was marketing to local, Denver residents. I don't think people who actually live in Denver are supposed to be the problem, are they?
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:47 PM   #997
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The problem is that the two (the media and the fans) feed off the momentum the other gives. THAT is the problem. The circus is the whole thing put together, but ignoring the fans' role in it is just disingenuous.
I'm not ignoring the fans, I'm pushing back against the notion that the fans are causing any real problems, or at least suggesting it's been blown way out of proportion. I've seen so much of this "his fans are the problem, he has to go," and I think there's a little bit of dishonesty there.

I think it just causes a sort of deep-seated stress, because the kid is kind of hard to categorize and dismiss. There's some sort of desire to resolve things, and he's irresolvable at this point.
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:51 PM   #998
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BTW,how many QBs has denver had where in the 1st game of the season were fans already getting "restless" & chanting for the back-up QB?
FWIW, I live in Panthers country, and we've all hated Jake Delhomme for years. We've been rooting for each new guy in town to take his job. It seems like a pretty normal mode for us.

I was surprised to see so much deep-rooted urging that Kyle Orton must be supported, and that anyone who would want to get the first round athlete out there must be some kind of 13 year old girl.

It's a pretty conventional set of circumstances -- team loses, fans rush project QB onto field.

But again, because of the polarizing nature of Tebow, everybody analyzes through that lens. I don't deny that it's somehow different -- but it's different in a kind of cool, fascinating way. Not different in miserable, "oh noes" kind of way.
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Old 06-15-2012, 04:20 PM   #999
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That's one thing that confuses me -- do you think the ones cheering "Tebow" at the games were these supposed "noobie" fans of Tebow, who have very little exposure to the NFL, and care about nothing but Tebow? Because my thinking is the ones out there at games in Denver were Denver Broncos fans. So I resist the notion that there's this group of toxic "Tebow fans" that show up and make it impossible for a franchise (and have followed him to NY). Seems like bona fide Denver Broncos fans also had a thing or to to say.
I daresay that the majority of the bona fide Denver Broncos fans are not at all disgruntled with having Peyton Manning instead of Tebow... even those who might have chanted for Tebow to take over for the struggling Orton at some of last season's games. Bona fide fans of the team are generally delighted with the acquisition of a significant upgrade... particularly since we didn't have to compensate Indianapolis (give up draft picks) to do it.
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Old 06-15-2012, 04:35 PM   #1000
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I daresay that the majority of the bona fide Denver Broncos fans are not at all disgruntled with having Peyton Manning instead of Tebow... even those who might have chanted for Tebow to take over for the struggling Orton at some of last season's games. Bona fide fans of the team are generally delighted with the acquisition of a significant upgrade... particularly since we didn't have to compensate Indianapolis (give up draft picks) to do it.
I think there was majority support for getting Manning. Not for ditching Tebow. Which is why the franchise is in for a rude awakening if Favre II falls short.
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