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Old 11-18-2016, 10:50 AM   #1126
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Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco View Post
Bah. They really need to re-name the award if they're not truly going to measure true "value".

Sox don't make the playoffs without Mookie. It's not even debatable.

Angels are a bottom feeder with or without Trout.
True but Andre Dawson (Ernie Banks too) started it back in the day. MVP in baseball is different than in other sports according to the writers. I hope his 7th place vote was purely based on not being on a contender. If it was to boost up Mookie then that is a problem. I would hate for someone to lose the MVP award like Ted Williams did when DiMaggio barely won it based on a pissed off Boston writer.
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Old 11-18-2016, 11:16 AM   #1127
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Bah. They really need to re-name the award if they're not truly going to measure true "value".

Sox don't make the playoffs without Mookie. It's not even debatable.

Angels are a bottom feeder with or without Trout.
Trout had the higher WAR, higher OPS, and higher RC and RC27. I'm not sure what else you'd need to measure to conclude that there's nothing controversial about choosing Trout over Betts.
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Old 11-18-2016, 11:28 AM   #1128
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Trout had the higher WAR, higher OPS, and higher RC and RC27. I'm not sure what else you'd need to measure to conclude that there's nothing controversial about choosing Trout over Betts.
Stats are flawed by their very nature and can be used in any number of ways. They also have no concept of context.

Mookie had quite a few stats in his favor as well.
It could also be argued that he also played in a tougher division against tougher pitching, etc.
Mookie is also the better defender.

There's more to this than the flawed WAR and OPS.
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Old 11-18-2016, 11:31 AM   #1129
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I would hate for someone to lose the MVP award like Ted Williams did when DiMaggio barely won it based on a pissed off Boston writer.
Or like Pedro Martinez did in 1999.....

Two AL MVP voters that year -- George King (NY Post) and Lavelle Neal (Minneapolis/St. Paul Star Tribune) -- did not name Martinez on their ballots, not even tenth place.

King justified his idiocy with the "pitchers should not win MVP" drivel, even though he had named two pitchers, including Yankee David Wells, on the 1998 AL MVP ballot.

Neal went with the same wretched justification, but at least did not have a previous hypocrisy staring back from his voting record.

Voters who find themselves incapable of voting for a worthy pitcher candidate are asked to recuse themselves, but in this case, neither did.
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Old 11-18-2016, 04:58 PM   #1130
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Stats are flawed by their very nature and can be used in any number of ways. They also have no concept of context.

Mookie had quite a few stats in his favor as well.
It could also be argued that he also played in a tougher division against tougher pitching, etc.
Mookie is also the better defender.

There's more to this than the flawed WAR and OPS.
Even if you simply go off the eye test, Trout was better. Trout is one pace to be potentially mentioned in the top 5 of all time when it is all said and done.
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Old 11-19-2016, 05:56 AM   #1131
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Even if you simply go off the eye test, Trout was better. Trout is one pace to be potentially mentioned in the top 5 of all time when it is all said and done.
Look, there's no doubt he's the best player. That's not in question. What is, is if he's the MVP. MLB needs to re-name the award because it's been awhile since it truly represented the MVP and not just the "best" player.
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Old 11-19-2016, 01:31 PM   #1132
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Sox don't make the playoffs without Mookie. It's not even debatable.
And this may a bit much. The Red Sox scored the most runs, had the most hits, and had the highest batting average and OPS in MLB. I'm not sure one guy keeps them from still being a great offensive team. And if it does, you could probably make a similar argument for David Ortiz since his offensive production was similar to Betts' in fewer at bats.
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Old 11-19-2016, 04:28 PM   #1133
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And this may a bit much. The Red Sox scored the most runs, had the most hits, and had the highest batting average and OPS in MLB. I'm not sure one guy keeps them from still being a great offensive team.
I'd love to know where I said that.
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Old 11-19-2016, 05:56 PM   #1134
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Look, there's no doubt he's the best player. That's not in question. What is, is if he's the MVP. MLB needs to re-name the award because it's been awhile since it truly represented the MVP and not just the "best" player.
I think that most people simply became comfortable with the MVP always going to the best player on the best team and assumed it would always be so with some outliers.

Trout is the best player in the game, he had an insane season and while it did not wholly impact his team, he was the most valuable player.

Betts was very very good this year and the numbers overall were close, but Trout was the better player. With the way Betts has progressed, I would imagine he will pull down 1 or 2 of the MVP's real soon.
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Old 11-19-2016, 10:53 PM   #1135
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I'd love to know where I said that.
You didn't say that specifically. But you did say this:

Quote:
Sox don't make the playoffs without Mookie. It's not even debatable.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:48 AM   #1136
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You didn't say that specifically. But you did say this:
I didnt' say it specifically? I didn't say it "at all". Saying a team won't make the playoffs and saying a team won't have a great offense are two COMPLETELY different statements. You can have a great offense and miss the playoffs.

To be clear:

1. Their offense likely would've still been great, but not nearly AS great without him. This is a pretty simple concept and really isn't debatable. On top of the core offensive stats everyone knows, he led the majors with 359 total bases and was 6th in steals. His loss would've hurt more than anyone else's in that lineup.

2. You're also forgetting a little thing called defense. Gold glove, 32 defensive runs saved, second best WAR in the league.....That's a whole other side to the game you just ignore and separate him from the great hitters like Ortiz.
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Old 11-22-2016, 06:18 PM   #1137
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Potential labor unrest in Major League Baseball, owners considering a lockout if new CBA not reached by Dec. 1.

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/l...aseball-112216
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Old 11-22-2016, 08:42 PM   #1138
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Potential labor unrest in Major League Baseball, owners considering a lockout if new CBA not reached by Dec. 1.

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/l...aseball-112216
They aren't that stupid. Too much money in the game for a lockout.
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Old 11-22-2016, 11:52 PM   #1139
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They aren't that stupid. Too much money in the game for a lockout.
I agree. It's posturing.

Just look at the mediocre players that have been paid handsomely in the last week:

Brett Cecil signed a four-year, $30.5 million deal with St. Louis. It includes a no-trade clause! Cecil had a 3.93 ERA last year and he's getting paid just $2 million less than Andrew Miller's AAV.

Jason Castro, who had a lousy .210/.307/.377 stat line in 2016, drew a three-year, $24.5 million from the Minnesota Twins all because he can frame pitches.

Andrew Cashner and his 5.25 ERA was good enough to get a $10 million, one-year deal from the Rangers.
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Old 11-23-2016, 12:13 AM   #1140
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I agree. It's posturing.

Just look at the mediocre players that have been paid handsomely in the last week:

Brett Cecil signed a four-year, $30.5 million deal with St. Louis. It includes a no-trade clause! Cecil had a 3.93 ERA last year and he's getting paid just $2 million less than Andrew Miller's AAV.

Jason Castro, who had a lousy .210/.307/.377 stat line in 2016, drew a three-year, $24.5 million from the Minnesota Twins all because he can frame pitches.

Andrew Cashner and his 5.25 ERA was good enough to get a $10 million, one-year deal from the Rangers.
In fairness, Miller was seen as a risk and overpaid due to injury concerns when he signed that deal.

I want to see how much Chapman signs for. It's a damn near fait accompli that he is going to sign with the Yankees but anything could happen.
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Old 11-23-2016, 07:26 AM   #1141
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It's a damn near fait accompli that he is going to sign with the Yankees but anything could happen.
I'm torn on whether or not that would be a good move. In the short term it would be nice, but he's going to command something like 5/$85mil and you know you'll probably get declining velocity in the 2nd half of that contract...
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Old 11-23-2016, 10:36 AM   #1142
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I agree. It's posturing.

Just look at the mediocre players that have been paid handsomely in the last week:

Brett Cecil signed a four-year, $30.5 million deal with St. Louis. It includes a no-trade clause! Cecil had a 3.93 ERA last year and he's getting paid just $2 million less than Andrew Miller's AAV.

Jason Castro, who had a lousy .210/.307/.377 stat line in 2016, drew a three-year, $24.5 million from the Minnesota Twins all because he can frame pitches.

Andrew Cashner and his 5.25 ERA was good enough to get a $10 million, one-year deal from the Rangers.
Itís easy to say WTF here but all three of those guys got paid largely based on previous peak seasons. Teams are gambling on rebounds; if Castro comes back to peak production, it's an excellent contract. Thatís what happens when they donít hit enough draft picks or lack a good long-term plan.
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Old 11-23-2016, 02:04 PM   #1143
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I'm torn on whether or not that would be a good move. In the short term it would be nice, but he's going to command something like 5/$85mil and you know you'll probably get declining velocity in the 2nd half of that contract...
**** that, his declining velocity will still be around 98 instead of 103.
He loved NY, the Yankees loved having him here and he even refused to sign an extension with the Cubs so that he would have a chance to return to wear the Pinstripes.

I can only imagine if the Yankees re-sign Chapman and also sign Jansen as to what would happen.

I hope we do not sign any qualifying FA's though. We need to keep our #17 pick. Another Blake Rutherford could fall.
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Old 11-23-2016, 02:07 PM   #1144
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Itís easy to say WTF here but all three of those guys got paid largely based on previous peak seasons. Teams are gambling on rebounds; if Castro comes back to peak production, it's an excellent contract. Thatís what happens when they donít hit enough draft picks or lack a good long-term plan.
Castro's deal is really relative to how weak the catching position is as a whole.
Pitch framing has been a bigger and bigger deal for year now. It's one of the key things the Yankees have harped on since Russell Martin and one of the major defensive techniques they teach their minor league prospect catchers.
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Old 11-23-2016, 08:50 PM   #1145
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Big trade in baseball on the eve of Thanksgiving.
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Old 11-24-2016, 12:45 AM   #1146
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Big trade in baseball on the eve of Thanksgiving.
Seems the Mariners ate selling low and buying high. They need some offense from Shortstop, and Walker has been inconsistent, but I question if Segura will hit in Safeco, and Walker is going to break out if he can get healthy. Hope it doesn't end as one sided as most mariners trades.
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:36 AM   #1147
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That's a potentially huge move for the D'Backs.
If they can get Greinke, Miller and Walker's heads on straight then that's a filthy rotation.
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Old 11-24-2016, 09:00 AM   #1148
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Welp, that's a big move. Hopefully Segura pans out!
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Old 11-24-2016, 11:34 AM   #1149
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Seems the Mariners ate selling low and buying high. They need some offense from Shortstop, and Walker has been inconsistent, but I question if Segura will hit in Safeco, and Walker is going to break out if he can get healthy. Hope it doesn't end as one sided as most mariners trades.
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That's a potentially huge move for the D'Backs.
If they can get Greinke, Miller and Walker's heads on straight then that's a filthy rotation.
I was stunned the M's dealt Walker at only 24 years old considering Felix had a down year, Iwakuma is getting up there in age and Paxton has been up and down like Taijuan. It wasn't inconceivable to think Walker could still develop into a staff ace.

Segura was a five-win player in 2016 following two horrid seasons in 2014-15. Chase Field played like Coors Field in 2016 and much of Segura's value was in his .499 slugging percentage. Like sgbfan said, I wonder too if Segura can continue to slug at Safeco, which historically hasn't been kind on RH batters.
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Old 11-24-2016, 11:56 AM   #1150
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I was stunned the M's dealt Walker at only 24 years old considering Felix had a down year, Iwakuma is getting up there in age and Paxton has been up and down like Taijuan. It wasn't inconceivable to think Walker could still develop into a staff ace.

Segura was a five-win player in 2016 following two horrid seasons in 2014-15. Chase Field played like Coors Field in 2016 and much of Segura's value was in his .499 slugging percentage. Like sgbfan said, I wonder too if Segura can continue to slug at Safeco, which historically hasn't been kind on RH batters.
I'm still salty about the M's refusing to trade Walker to the Yankees without a king's ransom and then they do this.
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