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Old 04-02-2015, 09:40 PM   #1051
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Uh, the Doc is bigger and attacked Rick, they both struggled for a brief minute, Rick tossed the Doc out the window, then pinned him, and threatened to start capping fools. Maybe you've never been in a real fight, but it looked about as realistic as it gets.

Matter of fact, I've never seen a TV fight that looked more realistic. Bloody faces from scratching each other and everything. What were you expecting? Roundhouse kicks and body punches? Lulz
LMFAO. They got bloody faces, so it totally was realistic that a well physically conditioned, formally trained, mentally prepared to kill person almost got beat by a neurosurgeon who demonstrated nothing more physically challenging that beating on a woman.

Rich!
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Old 04-02-2015, 09:57 PM   #1052
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LMFAO. They got bloody faces, so it totally was realistic that a well physically conditioned, formally trained, mentally prepared to kill person almost got beat by a neurosurgeon who demonstrated nothing more physically challenging that beating on a woman.

Rich!
Rick didn't get beat moron. Did you watch? Rick threw the dude out the window, pinned him, and was ready to shoot him all in less than a minute.

What cop do you know that could beat anybody up quicker than that without using a billy club or taser? Rosco P Coltrane? Not to mention Rick was in the hospital and has been living off tree bark and beetles for a year.
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:02 PM   #1053
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Yeah I'm really going to say that. I don't think you understand how skill improvement works. The skills he's developed really have very little to do with fist fighting. It's about on par with thinking someone who survived World War 2 could've come back and kicked another dude's ass just because he survived a war. It doesn't actually make sense. What we've seen of Rick's fist fighting ability actually tells us he can fight but that he's not particularly great at it. In fact, he nearly died from the last fist fight he had.
25 years of mixed martial arts experience here (mixed as in several different types). The most important factors in any fight are:

* relative size
* relative conditioning (cardio, strength, pain tolerance, etc.)
* relative mental state (are you prepared to kick ass and take names or not? are you prepared to kill?)
* relative training

Just because you are bigger doesn't give you an advantage over someone who has those other traits.

Just because you have decades of training and are well conditioned doesn't mean you won't get your ass kicked simply because you are unwilling to fight or unwilling to take the fight to the needed level.

Unless the hobodoc had some secret past we were never privy too, Rick beats him in everything but size. Ricks been fighting (not just surviving) constantly for years. Rick is a cop, has significant formal training. Rick (as the season's theme revolves around) is quite willing to kill hobodoc. Rick is well conditioned (all that fightin' and surviving he's done in the past years).

Rick kicks hobodocs ass, and probably doesn't stop at subduing him. Probably beats him to death given Rick's mental state.

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Also the myth that all abusive men are pussies is just that, a myth. Abusive men fall all along the p***Y/tough guy spectrum. You had preconceived notions about the guy that the show did not fulfill. That's only a problem as long as you think your preconceived notions were valid. Hint: they weren't.
Had they shown _anything_ on screen that demonstrated that hobodoc had any fighting competency, there would be no issue. Since all we have to go on is he's an alcoholic neurosurgeon who beats his wife, the only reasonable assumption is to assume he's a typical alcoholic neurosurgeon who beats his wife, and that he doesn't have a secret life as an MMA fighter.

But somehow, out of nowhere, he demonstrates competency that makes no sense given his character, and is just lazy writing. All I'm looking for here is some sort of checkov's gun, rather than a random ability assigned to a character for no other reason that to advance the plot.
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:03 PM   #1054
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Rick didn't get beat moron. Did you watch? Rick threw the dude out the window, pinned him, and was ready to shoot him all in less than a minute.
Didn't say he got beat. Learn to read, then try again.
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:06 PM   #1055
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Maybe you should watch some Steven Seagal movies to get more "realistic" action so we don't have to hear you whine about it anymore. After that throw on a mask, pop some popcorn, and lose yourself in some Lucha Underground.
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:22 PM   #1056
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Maybe you should watch some Steven Seagal movies to get more "realistic" action so we don't have to hear you whine about it anymore. After that throw on a mask, pop some popcorn, and lose yourself in some Lucha Underground.
Gunna want to check that panty twist. It seems to be starting to chaff.
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Old 04-03-2015, 12:00 AM   #1057
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Had they shown _anything_ on screen that demonstrated that hobodoc had any fighting competency, there would be no issue.
There is no issue because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There's no reason to assume the guy can't hold his own in a fight other than your own preconceived notions about him. For all you know he was a guy who frequented sports forums talking about having 25 years of mixed martial arts experience before the zombie apocalypse hit.
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Old 04-03-2015, 09:55 AM   #1058
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There is no issue because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There's no reason to assume the guy can't hold his own in a fight other than your own preconceived notions about him.
Absence of evidence = lazy writing, which is all I am saying.

Having hobodoc being a competent fighter is just as silly and out of blue as if we had a scenario where Rick was shown to be a competent surgeon out of the blue.

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For all you know he was a guy who frequented sports forums talking about having 25 years of mixed martial arts experience before the zombie apocalypse hit.
Ahh yes, in come the personal attacks for no reason. *eyeroll*
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Old 04-03-2015, 10:14 AM   #1059
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Absence of evidence = lazy writing, which is all I am saying.

Having hobodoc being a competent fighter is just as silly and out of blue as if we had a scenario where Rick was shown to be a competent surgeon out of the blue.



Ahh yes, in come the personal attacks for no reason. *eyeroll*
It wasn't really a personal attack. I was trying to point out to you that your assumptions about the guy are based on nothing, and that there are any number of possible explanations for why he didn't just roll over for Rick like a puss. You keep saying it's silly that he could hold his own in a fight, but you don't actually give a good reason why. You just assume he shouldn't be able to based on nothing. It isn't lazy writing because it's not the writers' jobs to telegraph every characters abilities to you before something happens.
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Old 04-03-2015, 10:15 AM   #1060
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I have yet to see an episode. I think my concern is I know I'll like it, and I feel like I have too much on my plate to catch up with several seasons worth of a show.

My question for you guys is "Is it really worth making the time for it?"
The first season is only six episodes. And yes. There will be moments where you'll be like "that was a stupid episode," especially in Season 3 when I felt like the writers were mailing it in. But overall the show is pretty well written (in terms of dialogue, anyway. Not always so with plot). If for nothing else, watch it for the production values. It will make the makeup work of every other zombie movie or show you've ever seen seem like something from a grade school Halloween assembly.
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Old 04-03-2015, 10:20 AM   #1061
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Did they say he was a neurosurgeon? The only thing I remember is them mentioning he was a surgeon...

If we are talking realism most street fights don't last beyond a minute or so if one of the two fighters knows what he or she is doing. So I agree Fedaykin here. Grimes is a cop who has been honing his skills for years on the lamb while the surgeon is a wad of cookie dough who was inebriated during the fight?

Incidentally, I've never done MMA but I wrestled in high school and got a brown sash in kung fu in my 20s. I haven't fought anyone in at least 8 years. Still pretty confident I could take most people down in a couple devastating blows provided I got the jump on them.

The fight scene was highly unrealistic but I don't think it really takes anything away from the show. I find most fight scenes to be highly unrealistic...
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Old 04-03-2015, 10:22 AM   #1062
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It wasn't really a personal attack. I was trying to point out to you that your assumptions about the guy are based on nothing, and that there are any number of possible explanations for why he didn't just roll over for Rick like a puss. You keep saying it's silly that he could hold his own in a fight, but you don't actually give a good reason why. You just assume he shouldn't be able to based on nothing. It isn't lazy writing because it's not the writers' jobs to telegraph every characters abilities to you before something happens.
Think Christopher Nolan

"Look at Bane his speed, his ferocity..."

Thank you for the exposition Mr. Nolan....
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Old 04-03-2015, 10:28 AM   #1063
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Think Christopher Nolan

"Look at Bane his speed, his ferocity..."

Thank you for the exposition Mr. Nolan....
Huh? I guess I just don't get the "Rick is a badass" viewpoint. He's not done anything to ever convince me is some Mad Max ass-kicking post-apocalyptic super hero. He got nearly beaten to death by the Governor and the Governor was just a guy who had no real background in fighting as far as I'm aware. Rick is tough and a survivor but he isn't a badass in my eyes.
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Old 04-03-2015, 10:33 AM   #1064
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Huh? I guess I just don't get the "Rick is a badass" viewpoint. He's not done anything to ever convince me is some Mad Max ass-kicking post-apocalyptic super hero. He got nearly beaten to death by the Governor and the Governor was just a guy who had no real background in fighting as far as I'm aware. Rick is tough and a survivor but he isn't a badass in my eyes.
You make a good point.

I'm just saying in this particular scenario it seems to stretch credulity. Again the surgeon was supposedly inebriated and he's been in the safe zone for the entire zombie apocalypse. Rick should have been able to handle him. I don't really care either way because I never expect these plot points to be realistic. I guess some people do?
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Old 04-03-2015, 10:59 AM   #1065
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Gunna want to check that panty twist. It seems to be starting to chaff.
That's all you. Hence the "Rick didn't beat him up fast enough" whine. Anything else you'd like to cry about or are you good?
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Old 04-03-2015, 11:06 AM   #1066
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Since were talking about other shows, I have absolutely loved this last season of Justified. Though it's gonna suck that it's ending. I'll miss Raylan and Boyd's epic dialogues. And basically anyone that raylan and Boyd have a dialogue with.
I am going to miss Ava. I am glad I hung with Justified, there were seasons that lost me with all the twists and turns and characters popping up but this season has been the best of the run.
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Old 04-03-2015, 11:09 AM   #1067
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Hell On Wheels was fantastic until they killed off the girl in Season 1. She was the equilibrium in an otherwise dark and sinister storyline. The show is still really good, but it lost that magic/element of grace.
Yep, I stopped watching it because it just wasn't the same. The 1st season was good, not great but nice watch if you couldn't sleep but it went off the rails after that sort of hot chick was killed off.
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Old 04-03-2015, 11:09 AM   #1068
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Its pretty hysterical that this guy claims to have been studying "Mixed-Martial Arts" for 25 years. The term MMA didn't even exist until 1993 when Royce Gracie started kicking peoples butts with Brazilian jiu jitsu in UFC 1 in Denver.

Fedaykin claims to have been studying MMA longer than the Gracie's. Beautiful.
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Old 04-03-2015, 11:22 AM   #1069
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You make a good point.

I'm just saying in this particular scenario it seems to stretch credulity. Again the surgeon was supposedly inebriated and he's been in the safe zone for the entire zombie apocalypse. Rick should have been able to handle him. I don't really care either way because I never expect these plot points to be realistic. I guess some people do?
People seem to be missing the entire thematic point of this scene. At the beginning Rick was trying to act civilized, and to follow orders. He was hindered both by having been instructed not to kill the bastard, and by his internal struggle to act like a civilized Alexandria resident. By the end his entire old self had come out.
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Old 04-03-2015, 11:34 AM   #1070
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It wasn't really a personal attack. I was trying to point out to you that your assumptions about the guy are based on nothing, and that there are any number of possible explanations for why he didn't just roll over for Rick like a puss. You keep saying it's silly that he could hold his own in a fight, but you don't actually give a good reason why. You just assume he shouldn't be able to based on nothing. It isn't lazy writing because it's not the writers' jobs to telegraph every characters abilities to you before something happens.
You don't think it's the writers job to write realistic characters and to portray them as characters rather than plot devices? That's the problem I have.

Like I said, it's just as silly as if Rick suddenly demonstrating competency at being a surgeon or a computer hacker or whatever.

A good writer doesn't just have characters pull abilities out of their asses that don't remotely match with that character.
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Old 04-03-2015, 11:37 AM   #1071
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Its pretty hysterical that this guy claims to have been studying "Mixed-Martial Arts" for 25 years. The term MMA didn't even exist until 1993 when Royce Gracie started kicking peoples butts with Brazilian jiu jitsu in UFC 1 in Denver.

Fedaykin claims to have been studying MMA longer than the Gracie's. Beautiful.
Again, learn to read. I explained that my meaning was a mix of different martial arts, not what is currently called MMA. Not to mention MMA isn't some specific style, but is literally just a description of fighters with different martial arts backgrounds fighting.

Seriously dude, you're pathetic. You haven't even yet figured out that I am not criticizing the fight choreography, but the characterization. You're a joke, as per usual.

Last edited by Fedaykin; 04-03-2015 at 11:41 AM..
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Old 04-03-2015, 12:34 PM   #1072
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There's a difference between accepting in-verse things that require suspension of disbelief (e.g. the existence of zombies) and in things that are clearly lazy and/or contrived writing.

The Rick/hobodoc fight is the best example. In-verse, Rick is a skilled fighter who's survived for (years?) in harsh conditions. Hobodoc is a guy that appears to mostly sit on his porch drinking beers (when not displaying his awesome fighting prowess by beating on his wife). There's no indication whatsoever that he's done any actual fighting in his entire life, despite living in a zombie apocalypse. There's no 'suspension of disbelief' that allows for those two to be evenly matched in a fight.

The only reason it was written that way was to force the Alexandria/Rick story line. Without the need to force that story line, Rick has that guy down for the count within a few seconds. Just like all the other people he's dispatched.
But there is the reality that Pete had about 4" and a good 40+ lbs on a still-worn-out Rick...
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Old 04-03-2015, 02:05 PM   #1073
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You don't think it's the writers job to write realistic characters and to portray them as characters rather than plot devices? That's the problem I have.

Like I said, it's just as silly as if Rick suddenly demonstrating competency at being a surgeon or a computer hacker or whatever.

A good writer doesn't just have characters pull abilities out of their asses that don't remotely match with that character.
Oh ffs, there's nothing unrealistic about a guy being able to hold his own in a fight with Rick. Rick is just a guy. He's not Chuck Norris.
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Old 04-03-2015, 02:11 PM   #1074
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Oh ffs, there's nothing unrealistic about a guy being able to hold his own in a fight with Rick. Rick is just a guy. He's not Chuck Norris.
He is also a guy who has been weakened mentally and physically, they didn't have a lot of food and he has been clearly stuck in a deepening depression since his wife died.

He is not a superhero, just a dude who has some law enforcement background out in a small backwater town.

The fact that he keeps making bad choices is the one thing that keeps me watching.
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Old 04-03-2015, 03:28 PM   #1075
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