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Old 10-02-2017, 02:33 PM   #76
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I don't see Cali or Illinois on that list?

I do see really small states though.
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:33 PM   #77
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I notice they leave out NY, IL, and CA.
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:35 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by DENVERDUI55 View Post
I notice they leave out NY, IL, and CA.
Here is the full list:

https://content.njdc.com/media/media...chart-1203.png
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:39 PM   #79
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I notice they leave out NY, IL, and CA.
NY is there. Middle of first list.
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:41 PM   #80
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Dam on bottom it's AK....
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:42 PM   #81
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James Holmes used these in Aurora
I had just watched that Aurora special last night on HBO and then went to bed and woke up and this Vegas massacre news was on the TV. That gave me the creeps bad.
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:49 PM   #82
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This is very important:

*Figures include homicides, suicides, accidetal gun deaths, firearm discharged with undetermined intent. Legal interventions involving firearms are excluded.

I would love to see the breakdown of all those numbers and really dig into the splits.

For example, heavy control laws, like ones LeloLang is proposing, where the firearm is stored elsewhere, I am betting would show improved numbers in home accidents and accidental discharges.

And I would like to see if total suicides go down. I am sure the number of gun related suicides would decline, but would it be a lateral move to other forms? Or would the need to take pills, jump, other things that might take time and have the person thinking about what they're doing perhaps cause them to second guess, whereas pulling the trigger is pretty much a done deal?

And they exclude legal interventions involving firearms. But if there was a decline in those as well in areas where gun control laws are more strict, because violent intervention was necessary less often, wouldn't that be something you'd want to bring up? Especially with all the political aspects of it going on right now.

I work as an analyst so I really enjoy pulling this stuff apart and making comparative analysis. I wish I could parse their data out myself.

Last edited by Kaylore; 10-02-2017 at 02:53 PM..
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:53 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaylore View Post
This is very important:

*Figures include homicides, suicides, accidetal gun deaths, firearm discharged with undetermined intent. Legal interventions involving firearms are excluded.

I would love to see the breakdown of all those numbers and really dig into the splits.

For example, heavy control laws, like ones LeloLang is proposing, where the firearm is stored elsewhere, I am betting would show improved numbers is in home accidents and accidental discharges.

And I would like to see if total suicides go down. I am sure the number of gun related suicides would decline, but would it be a lateral move to other forms? Or would the need to take pills, jump, other things that might take time and have the person thinking about what they're doing perhaps cause them to second guess, whereas pulling the trigger is pretty much a done deal?

And they exclude legal interventions involving firearms. But if there was a decline in those as well in areas where gun control laws are more strict, because violent intervention was necessary less often, wouldn't that be something you'd want to bring up? Especially with all the political aspects of it going on right now.

I work as an analyst so I really enjoy pulling this stuff apart and making comparative analysis. I wish I could parse their data out myself.
Our suicide rate is pretty middle-of-the-road, internationally...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_suicide_rate

It's a huge driver of firearm related deaths, which is why certain groups like to see them lumped in. There's no credible rationale though to think preventing firearm suicides is really preventing people from taking their own lives. As other countries with higher suicide rates establish, where there's a will, there's a way.
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:54 PM   #84
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So Sad, RIP and prayers to everyone.
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:56 PM   #85
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Our suicide rate is pretty middle-of-the-road, internationally...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_suicide_rate

It's a huge driver of firearm related deaths, which is why certain groups like them lumped in. There's no credible rationale though to think preventing firearm suicides is really preventing people from taking their own lives in the same ways people do in other countries.
The reason firearms are preferred is the immediacy of it. Slow, painful deaths are not preferred.

And you might be right. Obviously taking guns away doesn't cure depression, chronic pain, or whatever other reasons people kill themselves have. However when the fastest, least painful option is taken, sometimes they seek other options. I'd like to at least look at it.
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:57 PM   #86
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We have this damn gun debate at least a few times per year here at the Mane. Nothing is going to change, ever. Each year more and more guns are sold, each year there seems to be larger and larger massacres. Half the country doesn't want background checks it seems and half doesn't want restrictions on clips sizes or these gizmos that turn a semi to a full automatic. Safe to say there are going to be many many many more massacres and still nothing will ever be done to address gun violence in America. Americans have a fetish type of love affair with guns. I'm starting to change my mind on this. Let's forget trying to do anything about, let's go ahead and just allow everything to be purchased. Let's allow fully automatics to be sold, grenades, RPG's you name it. I mean, what if somebody wanted to go hunting with an RPG, isn't that their right? What if somebody likes to fish by throwing a nade into a lake, isn't that their right? Screw it, let's just go all out Rambo in America. Everybody can go into work with AK's strapped to their back, .50 cal automatics mounted to their cars and trucks. Let's just do it, we're headed that way anyway.
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:57 PM   #87
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Same argument against it. The law-abiding citizens aren't the problem. You can keep making more laws and all it does is disarm people who follow the laws while the criminals will continue to find ways to get their firearms. Do you honestly think your proposed solution would have stopped this guy?

Canada has higher gun-ownership per capita than the US and less gun violence. There's a culture of violence in this country that glamorizes gun violence and gun ownership.
I don't think taking assault rifles out of peoples homes is disarming them.

I've yet to find a compelling reason why people need military grade weapons.
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:01 PM   #88
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In comparing us to other rich countries, our gun-related homicide rate is atrocious

In comparing us to all countries, we are basically lumped in with third world countries.
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:03 PM   #89
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Half the country doesn't want background checks it seems and half doesn't want restrictions on clips sizes are these gizmos that turn a semi to a full automatic.
"Stuff happened, therefore propose stuff."

So far we know nothing about the guy that wouldn't have passed a background check with flying colors. But it universally keeps getting brought up as if it's an issue. What good did/would it do?

I don't think it would hurt anything to restrict some of the gun mod packages supposedly out there, but as we've already been over, the concept that you can keep relatively simple mechanical devices out of the hands of the masses is antiquated and very soon to be relegated to the ash heap of history.
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:06 PM   #90
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We have this damn gun debate at least a few times per year here at the Mane. Nothing is going to change, ever. Each year more and more guns are sold, each year there seems to be larger and larger massacres. Half the country doesn't want background checks it seems and half doesn't want restrictions on clips sizes or these gizmos that turn a semi to a full automatic. Safe to say there are going to be many many many more massacres and still nothing will ever be done to address gun violence in America. Americans have a fetish type of love affair with guns. I'm starting to change my mind on this. Let's forget trying to do anything about, let's go ahead and just allow everything to be purchased. Let's allow fully automatics to be sold, grenades, RPG's you name it. I mean, what if somebody wanted to go hunting with an RPG, isn't that their right? What if somebody likes to fish by throwing a nade into a lake, isn't that their right? Screw it, let's just go all out Rambo in America. Everybody can go into work with AK's strapped to their back, .50 cal automatics mounted to their cars and trucks. Let's just do it, we're headed that way anyway.
Sad and very true.
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:07 PM   #91
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The reason firearms are preferred is the immediacy of it. Slow, painful deaths are not preferred.

And you might be right. Obviously taking guns away doesn't cure depression, chronic pain, or whatever other reasons people kill themselves have. However when the fastest, least painful option is taken, sometimes they seek other options. I'd like to at least look at it.
Anything's possible. That said, rigging up your car to kill you is a relatively simple, painless thing to accomplish. Take away firearms, and this, among other methods will inarguably skyrocket.
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:12 PM   #92
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Anything's possible. That said, rigging up your car to kill you is a relatively simple, painless thing to accomplish. Take away firearms, and this, among other methods will inarguably skyrocket.
I think that over simplifies it a bit.

When you take guns out of the mix, overall suicide rate goes down considerably, even adjusting for population.

The old adage that "if you take away the gun, people will just kill themself with something else" is not true, statistically.

There is a different psychology involved in gun suicides than things like 1) running your car off the road 2) jumping off a building 3) taking pills 4) etc.
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:13 PM   #93
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"Stuff happened, therefore propose stuff."

So far we know nothing about the guy that wouldn't have passed a background check with flying colors. But it universally keeps getting brought up as if it's an issue. What good did/would it do?

I don't think it would hurt anything to restrict some of the gun mod packages supposedly out there, but as we've already been over, the concept that you can keep relatively simple mechanical devices out of the hands of the masses is antiquated and very soon to be relegated to the ash heap of history.
Right, exactly, so why not just full out allow everything, no checks, no limits, no restrictions, nothing. American wants to be the wild wild west again so let's just go for it all the way. If you're saying background checks and restrictions on certain things aren't going to stop the crazies out there, then why should we have these restrictions on other weapons? We should just allow grenades and RPG's and full auto's, everywhere, schools, businesses, court rooms, you name it. It should all be allowed because it's a 2nd amendment right to own those things and like you say, the crazies will find a way to get them anyway so why not just stop pretending with half measures and just go all the way. Let me ask you a question, why don't you want fully auto's and RPG's and grenades out on the streets or in schools or businesses? If we allow semi's we should just allow all of it.
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:17 PM   #94
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Right, exactly, so why not just full out allow everything, no checks, no limits, no restrictions, nothing. American wants to be the wild wild west again so let's just go for it all the way. If you're saying background checks and restrictions on certain things aren't going to stop the crazies out there, then why should we have these restrictions on other weapons?
You are aware that we actually do already have background checks, correct?

And there are no widespread "background checks" on "grenades" or "rpgs" or "full autos" because all of those are already completely illegal for civilians to possess in any capacity.
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:21 PM   #95
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You are aware that we actually do already have background checks, correct?

And there are no widespread "background checks" on "grenades" or "rpgs" or "full autos" because all of those are already completely illegal for civilians to possess in any capacity.
No **** sherlcok, that's what I am saying. Why are these other weapons illegal for civilians to use? That's what I'm getting at. Why not just allow them, isn't it a 2nd amendment right to own those and use them as you wish? Why wouldn't you want one of those?
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:27 PM   #96
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No **** sherlcok, that's what I am saying. Why are these other weapons illegal for civilians to use? That's what I'm getting at. Why not just allow them, isn't it a 2nd amendment right to own those and use them as you wish? Why wouldn't you want one of those?
In reality we'll have to find out the ins and outs of what was actually used here.

But there's a good chance what was in use here was already illegal.

In which case you'd essentially be arguing that "We don't just need to outlaw, but SUPER-DUPER-outlaw the purchase of weapons that mass murderers might use!"

Sadly, sub-24-hour ill-informed kneejerk reactions are often the most dangerous things to emerge from tragedies like this.
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:34 PM   #97
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I don't think taking assault rifles out of peoples homes is disarming them.

I've yet to find a compelling reason why people need military grade weapons.
Do you know the original purpose of the 2nd amendment? How can the "free" people of a nation defend themselves against a standing army ruled by a tyrannical government?
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:34 PM   #98
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Some psycho from Pacific Grove(next to me) sat on highway 5 this morning in Oregon shooting at cars coming his way.



No amount of laws are going to stop mentally ****ed up retards.

http://www.ksbw.com/article/pacific-...eriff/12767451

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Old 10-02-2017, 03:37 PM   #99
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Do you know the original purpose of the 2nd amendment? How can the "free" people of a nation defend themselves against a standing army ruled by a tyrannical government?


Pretty much why people of other countries with a tryannical govt have no chance..


Another civil war? Not as crazy as once thought just a few years ago.
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:40 PM   #100
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Some psycho from Pacific Grove(next to me) sat on highway 5 this morning in Oregon shooting at cars coming his way.



No amount of laws are going to stop mentally ****ed up retards.

http://www.ksbw.com/article/pacific-...eriff/12767451
Yep
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