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Old 02-17-2018, 09:33 AM   #51
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Mueller chose his targets because he knows they will never appear in court, never contest the charges, and cannot be arrested or extradited as Russian citizens. Mueller’s unprecedented prosecution raises three novel arguments: first, that speaking out about American politics requires a foreign citizen to register under the Foreign Agents Registration Act; second, that speaking out about American politics requires a foreign citizen list their source and expenditure of funding to the Federal Election Commission; and third, that mistakes on visa applications constitute “fraud” on the State Department. All appear to borrow from the now-discredited “honest services” theories Mueller’s team previously used in corporate and bribery cases, cases the Supreme Court overturned for their unconstitutional vagueness. The indictment raises serious issues under the free speech clause of the First Amendment and due process rights under the Fifth Amendment.

https://lawandcrime.com/opinion/does...-chris-steele/
Interesting theory to debate in a classroom. I'll bet money he never presents it in a court of law. One big giant flaw: Steele engaged in the investigation has an agent of FusionGPS. Once he saw the nature of the evidence he was receiving from Russian sources (and the impact that evidence might have) he notified the FBI. Ergo, his obvious intent was to report criminal behavior, not influence an election.

I guess if you accept the new right wing argument that the FBI is an enemy of the Republican Party (and therefore, America itself), you'll accept pretty much anything else that comes along. Hell, maybe the Illuminati and the Hillary Deep State did it?
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:53 AM   #52
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"Once he saw the nature of the evidence he was receiving from Russian sources (and the impact that evidence might have) he notified the FBI. Ergo, his obvious intent was to report criminal behavior, not influence an election."

Nor did Steele commit wire fraud, bank fraud, or aggravated identity theft. But never mind any of that ....
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:11 AM   #53
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As long as any theory absolves Trump of all guilt, it's perfectly acceptable.
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:18 AM   #54
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Now Pony Boy's a legal expert.
There’s a pretty interesting discussion going on in this thread about why the 13 Russians were charged. They are not in the United States and will never face arrest or go on trial, so it’s unclear what this case will amount to.

I would be interested in hearing your expert legal opinion.
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:21 AM   #55
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There’s a pretty interesting discussion going on in this thread about why the 13 Russians were charged. They are not in the United States and will never face arrest or go on trial, so it’s unclear what this case will amount to.

I would be interested in hearing your expert legal opinion.
Mueller is IMO strategically starting with the least empathetic big cases and slowly working up to the big one. Trump and his inner circle.
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:37 AM   #56
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Mueller is IMO strategically starting with the least empathetic big cases and slowly working up to the big one. Trump and his inner circle.
Let’s hope Mueller is telling the truth when it he says he’s conducting and honest and open investigation. If in your opinion he already has a big target in his crosshairs and is slowing working his up to it, wouldn’t that would be a valid reason for him to be removed immediately.
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:45 AM   #57
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Let’s hope Mueller is telling the truth when it he says he’s conducting and honest and open investigation. If in your opinion he already has a big target in his crosshairs and is slowing working his up to it, wouldn’t that would be a valid reason for him to be removed immediately.
Maybe you should read up about the man and see if you think he has any integrity, rather than just listen to Fox News propaganda:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mueller
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:04 AM   #58
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Maybe you should read up about the man and see if you think he has any integrity, rather than just listen to Fox News propaganda:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mueller
Maybe you should read my post again and the post from Pontious Pirate that I was replying too before you fly off the handle, I wasn’t the one implying he had a large target in mind.

Reading comprehension can be your friend.
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:07 AM   #59
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Mueller is building his case like a story that has to be explained from the ground up in chronological, logical order to counteract the radical right wing narrative of disinformation that's being propagated on the alt-right by the Rump Channel, Breitbart, Info Wars, etc...and lost in the conversation about why he is bringing indictments against these guys is one very obvious fact:

We now know for sure the Russians tried to influence this election and committed criminal activity to do so.

That single, seemingly obvious fact that most rational, objective people would view as self-evident, has been denied from the beginning by the dictator, his henchmen in congress, and the propaganda ministers on the fascist right wing of the GOP. It's no longer up for debate, and even Rump himself acknowledged it.

This is also just the first chapter of the book. In it, we see crimes being committed by foreign agents of our mortal enemy against the democratic process, and we already know the key people surrounding the dictator were in constant secret communication with the spies representing this enemy, their high level policy makers, and the people in position to finance these operations.

More indictments are sure to follow. I think he's saving his best for last.
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:42 AM   #60
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I'd just love to know why anyone finds Donald Trump trustworthy? Is it his history of being a ****head or the fact that he's clearly a pathological liar? Which is it?
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Old 02-17-2018, 12:11 PM   #61
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Foot, I don't disagree, but it seems to me the Mueller team is rolling out the ploy in novel form so that the right wing nut jobs can understand it.

I believe they tapped into humint to get some of what is in the indictment, and they were not American agents. Estonia and other countries, for example, have very sophisticated intelligence organizations. While the turd tubes that are trolling here worry about the dossier, other sources of data are streaming. The point is, Russia is a bad actor State. And Dotard Don is likely a participant in their efforts to sow global economic and political chaos.

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Old 02-17-2018, 12:36 PM   #62
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Maybe you should read my post again and the post from Pontious Pirate that I was replying too before you fly off the handle, I wasn’t the one implying he had a large target in mind.

Reading comprehension can be your friend.
Speaking of comprehension, isn't it about time those Russian sanctions went into effect?
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Old 02-17-2018, 12:46 PM   #63
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Let’s hope Mueller is telling the truth when it he says he’s conducting and honest and open investigation. If in your opinion he already has a big target in his crosshairs and is slowing working his up to it, wouldn’t that would be a valid reason for him to be removed immediately.
Of course not. He has more info than he's letting on. This move is probably calculated to simply raise the heat a bit on some of the (so far) unindicted conspirators in the case. The Gates flip will do that also. These indictments also might defang his political opposition in Washington. Americans might actually start to ask, "Hey! What about those sanctions?" The goal of prosecutors is to get convictions. I can understand why the Trump cabal (and its supporters) want to find any way possible to shut this down, truth be damned. After all, Trump is such an honorable man.
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Old 02-17-2018, 12:50 PM   #64
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Foot, I don't disagree, but it seems to me the Mueller team is rolling out the ploy in novel form so that the right wing nut jobs can understand it.

I believe they tapped into humint to get some of what is in the indictment, and they were not American agents. Estonia and other countries, for example, have very sophisticated intelligence organizations. While the turd tubes that are trolling here worry about the dossier, other sources of data are streaming. The point is, Russia is a bad actor State. And Dotard Don is likely a participant in their efforts to sow global economic and political chaos.
That assumes he thinks they are capable of having an open mind, which I doubt he believes. I have a slightly different take;

I think he's also building a case for the future, laying the groundwork for a potential Dem controlled congress in the event he's fired, which I think at some point he will be. He's already answered the central objection now, the idea that this was all a witch hunt. We now know for a fact that Russia was targeting this election, that they wanted Rump to win, that they went to extraordinary measures to make that happen, and that they were meeting with his people consistently, in secret, and these meetings included people in position to benefit him financially.

I'm not sure what else the right wing nut jobs need to understand in order to get it, yet they don't.

A future Dem controlled congress is where this will probably be ultimately acted on, because no matter what he produces, the conspiratorial partners in the GOP will fight it. It's clear they will always put their party above the country...even if it involves selling out to a foreign enemy.

Treason has no reason, just irrational, blind lust for power.
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Old 02-17-2018, 12:54 PM   #65
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Of course not. He has more info than he's letting on. This move is probably calculated to simply raise the heat a bit on some of the (so far) unindicted conspirators in the case. The Gates flip will do that also. These indictments also might defang his political opposition in Washington. Americans might actually start to ask, "Hey! What about those sanctions?" The goal of prosecutors is to get convictions. I can understand why the Trump cabal (and its supporters) want to find any way possible to shut this down, truth be damned. After all, Trump is such an honorable man.
Here's the deal. Of course he colluded. There is a mountain of circumstantial evidence that suggests he did. So, considering there's already a conclusion, of course it's probably in the best interest of the investigator to work backwards. Who knows if they'll ever be a "collusion smoking gun," but it's probably somewhere. (aside from the Don Jr. email, which is a collusion loaded gun if nothing else).

There's probably a greater chance of nailing Trump on obstruction, which, to me, seems like an obvious case... considering he admitted to it on national TV.
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Old 02-17-2018, 01:05 PM   #66
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H.R. McMaster has seen the light;

McMaster: Russian meddling in U.S. elections is beyond dispute

Doug Stanglin, USA TODAY Published 8:32 a.m. ET Feb. 17, 2018 | Updated 2:45 p.m. ET Feb. 17, 2018

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ute/347835002/

President Trump's national security adviser said Saturday that Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. elections is beyond dispute, marking a sharp reversal of Trump's frequent dismissal of alleged Russian cyber-meddling as a "hoax."

H.R. McMaster was speaking at an international conference in Munich in response to a question from a Russian delegate.

He spoke shortly after an appearance at the same gathering by Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, who had dismissed as "just claptrap" allegations of Russian meddling found in U.S. indictments handed down Friday.

Former Russian ambassador to the U.S., Sergey Kislyak, who has been drawn into the FBI probe through his contact with key Trump figures, also shrugged off the latest accusations.

"I have seen so many allegations and indictments in recent years towards Russians," said Kislyak, who also attended the Munich gathering. "Our American colleagues launched some kind of hunting spree throughout the world on Russian computer wizards."

He said the issue has "spoiled the trust between us even before you came up with the new allegations."

Referring to the indictment of 13 Russians, McMaster said that “with the FBI indictment, the evidence is now incontrovertible” of Russia cyber-meddling.

McMaster's sharp accusations were the most pointed from a high White House official regarding charges of Russian interference in the 2016 elections.

The comments also reflected a decided shift from the Trump White House regarding Russia's possible role.

In the past, Trump has regularly dismissed claims of Russian involvement as a "hoax" while at other times has said that meddling could be the work of Russia or simply the work of some "400-pound" guy working in a baSeimiant.

In remarks in August 2017, at a rally in Huntington, W.V., Trump mocked the notion of Russian meddling in the elections, calling it a "total fabrication" and an excuse by Democrats for Hillary Clinton's loss in the presidential election.
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Old 02-17-2018, 01:11 PM   #67
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Mueller's latest move just dealt the White House a massive "black eye"
Sonam Sheth

http://www.businessinsider.com/muell...-theory-2018-2

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"That level of detail should make it very hard for anybody to say that there's nothing there, that there's no Russian interference to worry about," said David Sklansky, a professor at Stanford Law School.

Moreover, he added, the charges will likely require the White House to "make a decision about whether they want to continue pretending that the Russians didn't have a favored side in the race, or that the side Russia favored was Clinton."
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Old 02-17-2018, 01:42 PM   #68
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One of the small potato's that Mueller was left with indicting was a small Russian caterer.

You always hear of the joke the FBI could indict a 'ham sandwich' if they wanted to.

Now Muller really has.

Here's to you Mueller .... bwhahahahaaaaaaa




.

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Old 02-17-2018, 01:49 PM   #69
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You are incoherent. WTF you blabbingg about?

You are on ignore.
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Old 02-17-2018, 02:07 PM   #70
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You are incoherent. WTF you blabbingg about?

You are on ignore.
Poor Paladin... when you're soooo clueless you don't know what ya don't know. Go sit in the corner and contemplate your ignorance.

I thought it was a pretty good joke myself.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...arged-election

"US investigators have long signalled their belief that Prigozhin, a 56-year-old billionaire businessman, is behind Russia’s internet troll factories.
Nicknamed the “Kremlin’s chef”, Prigozhin once ran Putin’s favourite restaurant in St Petersburg, after which he was awarded multi-billion pound state catering contracts.
He provided catering for Dmitry Medvedev’s presidential inauguration in 2008, and also has lucrative contracts to feed Russia’s army and Moscow’s schoolchildren.
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Old 02-17-2018, 02:18 PM   #71
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He's a dirtbag, sure. But I doubt he ever made $500,000 for an hour of his time.
Show me the 40 million dollar house Hillary sold for 100m to a Russian oligarch. A house he never planned to move into

Enough of the “but hillary!” Kim Kardashian is currently president and it’s hilsrious you can’t seem to realize that
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Old 02-17-2018, 03:11 PM   #72
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The indictments are perfect for Mueller! He gets to be a star...indictments!

Without ever having to bring the accused in to a courtroom! He gets to take credit with no trial!!!!

And who can argue? No one here in the US knows anything about the accused. Nor can they ever defend themselves. Besides, no one cares about them, they are Russians, after all...

Perfect for Mueller. He wins without having to go through the discovery process of a real trial.

Everything points to a total scam, just like I've been saying for many months.
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Old 02-17-2018, 03:15 PM   #73
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The indictments are perfect for Mueller! He gets to be a star...indictments!

Without ever having to bring the accused in to a courtroom! He gets to take credit with no trial!!!!

And who can argue? No one here in the US knows anything about the accused. Nor can they ever defend themselves. Besides, no one cares about them, they are Russians, after all...

Perfect for Mueller. He wins without having to go through the discovery process of a real trial.

Everything points to a total scam, just like I've been saying for many months.
How many white supremacy radio shows have you been on in the last 30 days? More than 5?
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Old 02-17-2018, 03:15 PM   #74
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The indictments are perfect for Mueller! He gets to be a star...indictments!

Without ever having to bring the accused in to a courtroom! He gets to take credit with no trial!!!!

And who can argue? No one here in the US knows anything about the accused. Nor can they ever defend themselves. Besides, no one cares about them, they are Russians, after all...

Perfect for Mueller. He wins without having to go through the discovery process of a real trial.

Everything points to a total scam, just like I've been saying for many months.
It's ridiculous really... if you pay close attention. The FAKE NEWS media will get to splash RUUUUUUUUUSHIA all over the news. Mueller will never have to face them in court because they'll be a half a world away... and the fake Russia Trump/Collusion narrative will die quietly in the minds of the sheeple.

If you wrote a movie with this script it wouldn't sell because it would stretch the limits of disbelief.
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Old 02-17-2018, 03:25 PM   #75
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It's ridiculous really... if you pay close attention. The FAKE NEWS media will get to splash RUUUUUUUUUSHIA all over the news. Mueller will never have to face them in court because they'll be a half a world away... and the fake Russia Trump/Collusion narrative will die quietly in the minds of the sheeple.

If you wrote a movie with this script it wouldn't sell because it would stretch the limits of disbelief.
In other words, we should not bring indictments for crimes against foreign agents because they live in other countries...especially if it will harm the dear leader.
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