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Old 11-20-2017, 08:33 PM   #26
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Most Americans benefit very little from a records stock market, for all intents and puposes... most Americans are net take home pay dependent, and records stock prices doesnít really do much to increase that...
A lot of pensions and 401ks rely on the stock market one way or another. But then again, the people who depend on those are going to get clobbered with, among other things, the elimination of the medical expenses exemption and the inevitable slashes in medicare.

But my question is this. If the stock market is doing so darned well, why do we need more tax cuts for billionaires and big business?

They won't use it to increase wages or benefits. That's rock bottom on their agenda.
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:56 PM   #27
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A lot of pensions and 401ks rely on the stock market one way or another. But then again, the people who depend on those are going to get clobbered with, among other things, the elimination of the medical expenses exemption and the inevitable slashes in medicare.

But my question is this. If the stock market is doing so darned well, why do we need more tax cuts for billionaires and big business?

They won't use it to increase wages or benefits. That's rock bottom on their agenda.
Of course dude, my 401k is well up, donít get me wrong.... but too me qualified plans really are irrelevant until your hang it up, for most people, 65.

Most Americans donít own lots of stock, very very few are investor class, do that for a livelihood and live off stocks/ equities for their income. So while the market is up, wages and real money today for most of America is stagnant.

Again, there is no compelling reason for tax cuts right now. Simplify the code, sure. If anything taxes should rise since the economy is doing so well, in order to target balancing federal budgets... at some point there will be no more to borrow, we will default- thatís is catastrophic bad.

Employers pay market price for labor. The largest swath of Americans are interchangeable non-scare labor, meaning that he will get paid the least employers can pay them to do a job. I donít fault employers here. But to make th incredible leap that tax cuts for companies that look to keep labor costs to a minimum will suddenly have a change of heart, I donít see it... if anything I see a final bill come together that has a sweet spot for companies to invest in automation, not human capital... an immediate deduction statute or something... offshore and automate, automate and offshore, rinse and repeat.

Itís all bull**** and cowardly pandering by the GOP- I hope to see principled conservatives begin the speak up about by his neocon horse****...
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:08 AM   #28
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:35 AM   #29
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:44 AM   #30
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How GOP Tax Plan Would Ruin Retirees, Underinsured


John Wasik , CONTRIBUTOR

Unless you're a multinational corporation or someone with a yacht, there's a lot not to like in the GOP's tax "reform" plan, which the party wants to ram through Congress by the end of the year -- even more to despise if you're retired, going to retire or underinsured.

As the Senate works on its version of tax revisions, two poison pills have emerged: A provision to cut the personal mandate in the Affordable Care Act and a trigger that will automatically slash some half a trillion dollars from Medicare over the coming decade.

To pay for this runaway train of tax goodies for global corporations and the ultra-wealthy, the GOP is raising taxes on the middle class and refuses to address the long-term funding shortfalls in Social Security and Medicare. Neither the House nor Senate plan addresses this issue.

That fiscal failure will likely lead to massive cuts to these popular programs. According to the Senior Citizens League analyst Mary Johnson:

"ďThe bill does nothing at all to reduce or eliminate the tax on Social Security benefits that burdens more than half of all retiree households,Ē Johnson notes.

"Yet the tax cuts for corporations and the wealthiest households in the Tax Cut and Jobs Act will add an estimated $1.5 trillion to the national debt. Some conservative Members of Congress say they are planning a budget that would require mandatory spending cuts to reduce the debt next year."

Worse yet, the House GOP plan caps mortgage interest, property tax write-offs and cuts personal exemptions while raising tax rates for middle-income earners.

Where would these cuts come from to pay for this horrendous legislation? Since they are not coming from defense or paring corporate tax breaks, the biggest target on the table are social insurance programs like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

There's more in this draconian giveaway to the wealthiest entities on the planet. Medical expense write-offs would be slashed in the House version, although they stay in the Senate bill. Loss of medical write-offs would clobber everyone with poor insurance, especially retirees.

Here's a joint statement from the AARP and 27 other non-profits representing everyone from retirees to cancer patients:

"For the past 75 years, Americans with high health care costs have been able to deduct medical expenses from their taxes. For the approximately 8.8 million Americans who annually take this deduction, it provides important tax relief which helps offset the costs of acute and chronic medical conditions for older Americans, children, pregnant women and other adults as well as the costs associated with long term care and assisted living.

Even those with Medicare can spend a large portion of their income on out-of-pocket expenses. The average Medicare beneficiary spends about $5,680 out-of-pocket on medical care.

Furthermore, older Americans and individuals with disabilities or chronic illnesses often face high costs for long term services and support, which are generally not covered by Medicare or private insurance, as well as hospitalizations and prescription drugs, which may have significant copayments."

House Speaker Paul Ryan and the GOP have long wanted to privatize Medicare and have repeatedly called to slash $1 trillion from Medicaid in their myriad attempts to repeal the Affordable Care Act. By just paring the individual mandate, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that some 13 million Americans would lose coverage while middle-class families would see premium increases of nearly $2,000.

Complete article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnwas.../#30e2bddf60ad

Forbes has been really ripping this tax plan. Good to see they have some integrity.
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:03 PM   #31
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^

Amazing how the unthinking pea brains who support tRump are OK with all of this, just so long as tRump legitimizes their hatred of Muslims, Mexicans, immigrants, blacks, gays and liberals.
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:23 PM   #32
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^

Amazing how the unthinking pea brains who support tRump are OK with all of this,.
but but Hillary
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:55 PM   #33
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Absolutely, in a nutshell people. Millionaires can write off Jets and teachers can't even write off school supplies for kids who can't afford them.

And you wonder which party is more aligned towards helping the poor and middle class and which is aligned at making life easier for the filthy rich.
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:21 PM   #34
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Not really at all what it does...

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/tax...ard/1510946720

Although teachers should be able to write off a lot more than they do.
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Old 11-21-2017, 04:07 PM   #35
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Another chance to make billionaires richer.
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Old 11-21-2017, 06:23 PM   #36
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Some reform was needed. Streamline things a bit. Trying to look at this tax reform in a non-partisan way it has a little for lower incomes, probably more for higher incomes. http://www.businessinsider.com/trump...s-rate-2017-10 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-tax-bill.html

* Less tax brackets - 12%, 25%, 35%, 39.6%
* Standard deduction is doubled across the board, but the personal deduction for individuals and dependents are eliminated. Doesn't much help lower income families.
* "Pass-Through" business income which is taxed at individual rates will get a flat rate around 20%. This may stimulate investment and job growth in small business. Benefits small business owners except for the 12% individual rate.
* Corporate tax cut from 35% to 20%, some other adjustments to get the USA's tax structure more in line with international norms. Immediate deduction of business investment instead of amortizing (not sure if this applies to pass-through businesses).
* Mortgage deduction - eliminates deduction for a second home.
* Estate tax - eliminates it entirely. Huge advantage to super-wealthy. No reason to not keep at least a small tax in place.
* Some little things that benefit lower incomes like moving expense deduction is eliminated, student loan interest deduction removed.

Something almost exactly like the above will be passed, so we'll just have to deal with it.
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Old 11-21-2017, 06:49 PM   #37
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A lot of pensions and 401ks rely on the stock market one way or another. But then again, the people who depend on those are going to get clobbered with, among other things, the elimination of the medical expenses exemption and the inevitable slashes in medicare.

But my question is this. If the stock market is doing so darned well, why do we need more tax cuts for billionaires and big business?

They won't use it to increase wages or benefits. That's rock bottom on their agenda
.
How I'm seeing it is an attempt to bring overseas factory jobs back to the US. Rejuvenate some of the Rustbelt economies. Dunno if the carrot on the stick will do that. There's a provision for repatriating overseas assets.

The flat rate on pass-through business could entice entrepreneurs to invest and expand. The provision for same-year writeoff on business investment could be enticing.

There will be something passed and signed that's for sure, we'll see how it plays out.
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Old 11-21-2017, 06:53 PM   #38
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How I'm seeing it is an attempt to bring overseas factory jobs back to the US. Rejuvenate some of the Rustbelt economies. Dunno if the carrot on the stick will do that. There's a provision for repatriating overseas assets.

The flat rate on pass-through business could entice entrepreneurs to invest and expand. The provision for same-year writeoff on business investment could be enticing.

There will be something passed and signed that's for sure, we'll see how it plays out.
The companies moved not because of taxes but lower labor cost. Nothing has changed.
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:40 PM   #39
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How I'm seeing it is an attempt to bring overseas factory jobs back to the US. Rejuvenate some of the Rustbelt economies. Dunno if the carrot on the stick will do that. There's a provision for repatriating overseas assets.

The flat rate on pass-through business could entice entrepreneurs to invest and expand. The provision for same-year writeoff on business investment could be enticing.

There will be something passed and signed that's for sure, we'll see how it plays out.
We already tried the repatriation thing, I think it was back in 2004, the tax holiday they called it. For a single day corporations were only taxed at a rate of 5% and all the money they brought back they gave to CEO's and share holders and then slashed blue collar jobs (estimates of 20,000 jobs in 1 day). Not a dime of it was invested in giving employees a higher wage, or creating new jobs. The Republicans tried to do this again in 2009 but that bill failed.

You see, when you give the elite and wealthy more money, they don't want want it to trickle down, they want to keep it in the family as they say.

Greed. It makes people do the wrong thing almost all the time.
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:21 PM   #40
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We already tried the repatriation thing, I think it was back in 2004, the tax holiday they called it. For a single day corporations were only taxed at a rate of 5% and all the money they brought back they gave to CEO's and share holders and then slashed blue collar jobs (estimates of 20,000 jobs in 1 day). Not a dime of it was invested in giving employees a higher wage, or creating new jobs. The Republicans tried to do this again in 2009 but that bill failed.

You see, when you give the elite and wealthy more money, they don't want want it to trickle down, they want to keep it in the family as they say.

Greed. It makes people do the wrong thing almost all the time.
this
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:04 AM   #41
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Some like to argue, "Well, it may give the rich a little bit more, but..." You have to take into account, that's what every single tax code rewrite has done for thirty years, "Given them a little bit more." Well, now, it adds up to a whole lot. Death by a thousand cuts.

And the American people are the frogs in the boiling pot.

"Does it seem warm to you?"
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:08 AM   #42
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Some like to argue, "Well, it may give the rich a little bit more, but..." You have to take into account, that's what every single tax code rewrite has done for thirty years, "Given them a little bit more." Well, now, it adds up to a whole lot. Death by a thousand cuts.

And the American people are the frogs in the boiling pot.

"Does it seem warm to you?"
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:10 AM   #43
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:14 AM   #44
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Trumpís tax plan would shaft 11 million taxpayers

Under the Republican tax cut proposals circulating in Congress, Schneiderís 95-year-old mom in Barrington, Rhode Island, would pay $600 to $800 more in annual taxes, Schneider calculates. Sheíd lose much or all of the state and local tax deduction that currently helps to lower her tax bill. Losing the personal exemption would hurt, too. Since her mom lives on a fixed income, she wouldnít benefit from the wage gains Republicans promise will arise from their tax cut proposals. Her gross income wouldnít go up, but her taxable income would, and she might even end up in a higher tax bracket

Itís fairly clear what the final bill is likely to look like. Tax cuts would total roughly $1.5 trillion over 10 years, or $150 billion per year, on average. About 75% of the savings would go to businesses, thanks to a reduction of the corporate rate to 20% from 35%, and other changes. Individuals would enjoy the other 25%, with large tax cuts for the wealthy and less accruing to the middle class.

complete article
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Old 11-22-2017, 08:16 AM   #45
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We already tried the repatriation thing, I think it was back in 2004, the tax holiday they called it. For a single day corporations were only taxed at a rate of 5% and all the money they brought back they gave to CEO's and share holders and then slashed blue collar jobs (estimates of 20,000 jobs in 1 day). Not a dime of it was invested in giving employees a higher wage, or creating new jobs. The Republicans tried to do this again in 2009 but that bill failed.

You see, when you give the elite and wealthy more money, they don't want want it to trickle down, they want to keep it in the family as they say.

Greed. It makes people do the wrong thing almost all the time.
The problem is entire international subsidiary layers are built around how the tax system is built today. A one day holiday will never be enough incentive for companies to undo all that for one day only to have to immediately revert to prevent from permanently paying the world's highest corporate tax rate in one of the very few countries that taxes worldwide income.

https://taxfoundation.org/global-per...rial-taxation/

Tax reform needs to be permanent to have any real impact.
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Old 11-22-2017, 11:39 AM   #46
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The problem is entire international subsidiary layers are built around how the tax system is built today. A one day holiday will never be enough incentive for companies to undo all that for one day only to have to immediately revert to prevent from permanently paying the world's highest corporate tax rate in one of the very few countries that taxes worldwide income.

https://taxfoundation.org/global-per...rial-taxation/

Tax reform needs to be permanent to have any real impact.
I don't think you will find many people who are not on board with reducing the corporate tax in America at least a little bit, but to cut it almost half is not the right answer. And then to make matters worse, they want to throw all of that pork in there with it, estate tax, etc.

And how can Republicans jump in here and claim how well the stock market is doing and that business and corporations are thriving and creating more jobs, and then talk about how the corporate tax is killing job creation. Sounds extremely contradicting.

Even so, if the corporate tax rate goes down to 20%, don't get your hopes up. We all know what they're going to do with that extra money. Let's not pretend they want to help others with their new billions of extra money. They'll pay CEO's even more, all the top salespeople even more and the blue collar folks will see pennies if they're lucky. That's how it works here in America.

Last edited by ZONA; 11-22-2017 at 11:41 AM..
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Old 11-22-2017, 11:51 AM   #47
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I don't think you will find many people who are not on board with reducing the corporate tax in America at least a little bit, but to cut it almost half is not the right answer. And then to make matters worse, they want to throw all of that pork in there with it, estate tax, etc.

And how can Republicans jump in here and claim how well the stock market is doing and that business and corporations are thriving and creating more jobs, and then talk about how the corporate tax is killing job creation. Sounds extremely contradicting.

Even so, if the corporate tax rate goes down to 20%, don't get your hopes up. We all know what they're going to do with that extra money. Let's not pretend they want to help others with their new billions of extra money. They'll pay CEO's even more, all the top salespeople even more and the blue collar folks will see pennies if they're lucky. That's how it works here in America.
I'd leave the estate tax off the table... there are so few millionaires that actually pay it because it's so easy to estate-plan around. So it's just bad press for no productive reason. They could maybe firm up some things around farm land valuation and stuff like that, but otherwise leave it alone.

As far as 'extra money' goes, that's not really how it works. They already have the money. They just don't bring it to the US because of how we extraordinarily punish them for doing so. There's really no excuse for how we currently treat overseas profits. At some point, in an international game, you have to commit to being halfway competitive with how other modern democracies operate.
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Old 11-24-2017, 06:20 AM   #48
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There are a couple reasons why switching to chained CPI is a politically convenient way for Republicans to raise money. First, it’s subtle. Most people’s eyes glaze over when they hear about inflation adjustments. And the effect doesn’t become noticeable until years down the road, when people probably won’t even realize they’re paying more taxes than they otherwise would be under the old tax regime. Second, its won’t tick off GOP donors. The richest Americans don’t really need to worry about where tax brackets start and stop, since they pay the top rate on the vast majority of their income anyway. If you make $5 million or $10 million a year, it doesn’t matter if the highest bracket begins $10,000 or even $20,000 lower. As NYU law professor Lily Batchelder summed it up for me, “It’s a stealth tax increase that only affects the non-wealthy and grows over time.”
https://slate.com/business/2017/11/h...llennials.html
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Old 11-24-2017, 02:58 PM   #49
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I'd leave the estate tax off the table... there are so few millionaires that actually pay it because it's so easy to estate-plan around. So it's just bad press for no productive reason. They could maybe firm up some things around farm land valuation and stuff like that, but otherwise leave it alone.

As far as 'extra money' goes, that's not really how it works. They already have the money. They just don't bring it to the US because of how we extraordinarily punish them for doing so. There's really no excuse for how we currently treat overseas profits. At some point, in an international game, you have to commit to being halfway competitive with how other modern democracies operate.
Love how you cherry pick which other modern democracy policies you want the US to be more like. You want their tax policies but not their healthcare policies. You can't just pick a single thing you like. It's all a very complex setup, other parts depending on other parts if you will.
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Old 11-26-2017, 01:18 PM   #50
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Another chance to make billionaires richer.
Thanks to the same ignoramuses who have been voting that way since Red Ink Ron...

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