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Old 09-03-2014, 11:12 AM   #101
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The "It Just Is" argument is no more persuasive than the idea that Someone/thing put it there.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:25 AM   #102
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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
You should keep that in mind.
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:28 AM   #103
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You should keep that in mind.
"I am rubber - you are glue..."

Brilliant!

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Old 09-03-2014, 11:36 AM   #104
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You should keep that in mind.
I do. Every time I read one of your posts.
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Old 09-03-2014, 12:45 PM   #105
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Except that the former doesn't require evidence for some supernatural agent or other.
If we were being intellectually honest, it kinda does.

I mean, here you are, resting on the collective wisdom of mankind to create a moral hierarchy... you think mankind has the potential to figure it all out. I mean, we're pretty smart, right?

But our best collective (super-intelligent) effort can't truly create one single cell of life, completely from the ground up from otherwise inert matter. So far, we can't make that work.

But at one point that same thing all just spontaneously happened? Randomness actually produced something more intelligent and complex than mankind's greatest effort can figure out?

That claim requires some evidence. Something more than "Order is ordered because of order."
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:09 PM   #106
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If we were being intellectually honest, it kinda does.

I mean, here you are, resting on the collective wisdom of mankind to create a moral hierarchy... you think mankind has the potential to figure it all out. I mean, we're pretty smart, right?

But our best collective (super-intelligent) effort can't truly create one single cell of life, completely from the ground up from otherwise inert matter. So far, we can't make that work.

But at one point that same thing all just spontaneously happened? Randomness actually produced something more intelligent and complex than mankind's greatest effort can figure out?

That claim requires some evidence. Something more than "Order is ordered because of order."
This is just a re-statement of the same artifactual model.

If cellular reproduction, propagation, and evolution aren't self-perpetuating, then you simply attribute the behavior of all observable phenomena to some supernatural agent who is cosmologically anterior to and ontologically distinct from his/her/its "creation."

While we can observe the behavior of natural phenomena and identify motivating forces, there is no empirical evidence to support the existence of the aforementioned supernatural agent.

So who has the greater burden of proof here?

BTW, if the cosmos is self-sufficient/uncreated, it doesn't follow that it is also random.

You just have to let go of those Newtonian building blocks.
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:11 PM   #107
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In this, you're asking whether a supernatural order will defy the definition of supernatural.

And of course, the answer is no.
That's not what I'm asking.
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:11 PM   #108
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That claim requires some evidence. Something more than "Order is ordered because of order."
"Order" is an intellectual convention.

It's the terms in which your brain processes incoming sense data.

It doesn't exist "out there" somewhere.
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:21 PM   #109
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"Order" is an intellectual convention.

It's the terms in which your brain processes incoming sense data.
Sorry, but isn't this just the whole 'if a tree falls in the forest' thing?

If mankind (or higher animals or whatever you want) weren't here to observe order, are you arguing order wouldn't exist?
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:23 PM   #110
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That's not what I'm asking.
Seems like you're asking if we can scientifically analyze a supernatural order.

The primary definition of Supernatural being:

(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

or

Unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature :
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:26 PM   #111
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Seems like you're asking if we can scientifically analyze a supernatural order.

The primary definition of Supernatural being:

(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

or

Unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature :
In other words, something for which no evidence exists.
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:29 PM   #112
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Sorry, but isn't this just the whole 'if a tree falls in the forest' thing?

If mankind (or higher animals or whatever you want) weren't here to observe order, are you arguing order wouldn't exist?
Yes, you could consider it a case for perceptual relativism.

How can you verify order (or anything for that matter) without an observer?

And what appears as order to one subject might appear as chaos to another, so it's ultimately subjective.
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:32 PM   #113
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Unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature :[/i]
If a phenomenon can't be explained, it doesn't follow that the phenomenon must have some kind of "supernatural" origin.
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:47 PM   #114
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In other words, something for which no evidence exists.
And for me, creation is the evidence. (part of it at least)
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:57 PM   #115
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And for me, creation is the evidence. (part of it at least)
That's a belief.
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:57 PM   #116
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Seems like you're asking if we can scientifically analyze a supernatural order.
No. Can we analyze this "Moral Order"?
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Old 09-03-2014, 02:05 PM   #117
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Science can't even find one other planet with life on it. LOOK WHAT GOD DID!
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Old 09-03-2014, 02:29 PM   #118
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Without religion, there is no such thing as Evil. Even Dawkins will agree to that point.
Maybe Evil with a capital E. Regular evil is subjective just like cruel, bad, wrong, or OMG horrible.
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Old 09-03-2014, 02:33 PM   #119
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Maybe Evil with a capital E. Regular evil is subjective just like cruel, bad, wrong, or OMG horrible.
depending on the culture, evil is definitely subjective.
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Old 09-03-2014, 02:35 PM   #120
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The "It Just Is" argument is no more persuasive than the idea that Someone/thing put it there.
Atheism is just as much a religion.
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Old 09-03-2014, 02:37 PM   #121
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Science can't even find one other planet with life on it. LOOK WHAT GOD DID!
Not only will science find life on other planets, it will find it on millions of planets.
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Old 09-03-2014, 02:53 PM   #122
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It's meaningless to say matter "created itself" at some point on some imagined linear timeline or that matter "put itself" in some point in space (from some other point) insofar as matter is what there is and all that there is. There is nothing other than or outside of matter (go ahead and replace "matter" with "God" if it makes you feel better, religious readers.)
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Old 09-03-2014, 02:54 PM   #123
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Not only will science find life on other planets, it will find it on millions of planets.
trillions
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Old 09-03-2014, 03:06 PM   #124
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No. Can we analyze this "Moral Order"?
I don't know. Do you consider philosophy analysis?
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Old 09-03-2014, 03:09 PM   #125
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Not only will science find life on other planets, it will find it on millions of planets.
And when they don't will you consider God as real, or will it not result in any such thinking?
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