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Old 09-02-2014, 04:13 PM   #76
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Beav, are you saying that without religion, morality cannot exist, or, that if have a system of morality then it must be religious?
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:23 PM   #77
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Uh, I'm not of the 70 virgins persuasion.

If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven;

Christ's teachings were revolutionary. And counter-cultural to how most of us hypocrites live today. Your problem is you hold Christ's 'religion' accountable while his teachings remain mostly ignored.

Anyway, it's a far cry from 70 Virgins. Although I've yet to hear how replacing the virgins of the afterlife with as many virgins as you can score here and now is any better.
Really? So ideas of paradise are drastically different? I don't think so. Same concept, different trappings. Heaven by any other name, etc.

Besides, I doubt we really have much of an idea what Jesus' teachings actually were.
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:28 PM   #78
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Beav, are you saying that without religion, morality cannot exist, or, that if have a system of morality then it must be religious?
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During the minute it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive; others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear; others are being slowly devoured from within by rasping parasites; thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst and disease. In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice.

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Richard Dawkins
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:30 PM   #79
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Richard Dawkins
That's not an answer. About what I expected.
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:32 PM   #80
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Richard Dawkins
I'll bet he had trouble getting out of bed in the morning.
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:35 PM   #81
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Really? So ideas of paradise are drastically different? I don't think so. Same concept, different trappings. Heaven by any other name, etc.
It's not really that simple. The Bible requires true love of both God and your neighbor to be your actual motive. When you think about that, there is no system to be gamed (so to speak)

There is no "If I do X, I'll get Y in heaven." Because if you didn't do it in love and service to God in the first place, it meant absolutely nothing.

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Besides, I doubt we really have much of an idea what Jesus' teachings actually were.
That's another conspiracy theory for another day.
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:38 PM   #82
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That's not an answer. About what I expected.
Without a created order, there is no morality.

As Dawkins is getting at (and I already alluded to earlier)
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Old 09-02-2014, 05:47 PM   #83
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Without a created order, there is no morality.

As Dawkins is getting at (and I already alluded to earlier)
Is religion the only means by which order can be created?
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Old 09-02-2014, 06:24 PM   #84
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So what you're saying is government prohibitions stunt moral growth? Never saw the puritanical libertarian coming from you, Labron.
Not at all, Cletus.

Simply a response by society to those folks who are, for whatever reason, incapable of autonomously doing the right thing or respecting the interests of society.

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Anyway, once you remove God, there's not much point in arguing about "inherently wrong."
Now you are confusing religious belief with morality, as other forum members have noted.

You don't need an imaginary playmate to understand the golden rule.

Likewise, there is precious little evidence that religious belief is sufficient for moral development.

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In the grand scheme of an almost infinite universe, if I wasn't created for some larger purpose, my life is not meaningfully more significant than the mosquito's, whose life ended smashed on my lower leg last night.
Of course you value your own life over the mosquito's. If you could ask him, I'm sure the mosquito would tell you he values his own life over yours.
It doesn't follow that you were "created" for some "larger purpose" (where "larger" is inevitably defined by your own value system.)
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Old 09-02-2014, 06:30 PM   #85
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Is religion the only means by which order can be created?
Order? No. Most things have an order of some kind.

A Moral Order is a whole different question.
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Old 09-02-2014, 06:36 PM   #86
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Not at all, Cletus.

Simply a response by society to those folks who are, for whatever reason, incapable of autonomously doing the right thing or respecting the interests of society.
Not nearly that simple. I see Dawkins made the news lately for saying aborting a Downs baby was more "moral" than giving birth to her.

Is that "respecting the interests of society" enough? Dawkins thinks it is. But you will find little agreement on the morality of that viewpoint. God or no.
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Old 09-02-2014, 06:37 PM   #87
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Order? No. Most things have an order of some kind.

A Moral Order is a whole different question.
Maybe some folks are dependent on an imagined cosmic parent figure of some kind to know the difference between right and wrong, but the rest become self-sufficient moral agents, as human development dictates.
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Old 09-02-2014, 06:47 PM   #88
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Order? No. Most things have an order of some kind.

A Moral Order is a whole different question.
Moving goalposts...

Is religion the only means by which "moral order" (no capitalization needed) is created, or, are all cases of the creation of "moral order" defined to be "religion"?

How much more wiggle room are going to try to carve out to rationalize your apologia?
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Old 09-03-2014, 08:32 AM   #89
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Moving goalposts...

Is religion the only means by which "moral order" (no capitalization needed) is created, or, are all cases of the creation of "moral order" defined to be "religion"?

How much more wiggle room are going to try to carve out to rationalize your apologia?
I wouldn't say religion creates a moral order. At least from the standpoint of the Religious, that'd be like saying Climate Scientists created Global Warming.

Religion is a belief in a 'supernatural' (if you like) order. With varying degrees of specificity.

If most major religions are correct, then a Moral Order already exists, whether we acknowledge it or not.

Much like you would say AGW exists, whether people believe it or not.
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:11 AM   #90
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I wouldn't say religion creates a moral order. At least from the standpoint of the Religious, that'd be like saying Climate Scientists created Global Warming.

Religion is a belief in a 'supernatural' (if you like) order. With varying degrees of specificity.

If most major religions are correct, then a Moral Order already exists, whether we acknowledge it or not.

Much like you would say AGW exists, whether people believe it or not.
What's the difference between a "'supernatural' order" and a "Moral Order"?

Is this "Moral Order" discoverable and understandable via the same means and in the same way as the laws of physics, i.e., the non-supernatural order? What need is there, then, of any kind of supernaturality for the existence of this "Moral Order"?
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:23 AM   #91
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Judeo-Christian-Islamic cosmology is hopelessly mired in the past, i.e., in obsolete physical models.

The idea that matter is intrinsically stupid and requires some external intelligence to shape it is part and parcel of an outmoded, artifactual model of the universe.

This outmoded paradigm informs all their metaphysics and morals.

In their way of thinking, the world is a construct - therefore, there must be an architect or designer anterior to and ontologically distinct from it.

Man is, in his essence, Pinocchio in the hands of some cosmic Geppetto, and therefore requires an all-powerful, all-knowing cosmic parental figure to provide him with a moral compass.

These folks have yet to catch up with Einstein - let alone quantum mechanics.
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:36 AM   #92
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What's the difference between a "'supernatural' order" and a "Moral Order"?

Is this "Moral Order" discoverable and understandable via the same means and in the same way as the laws of physics, i.e., the non-supernatural order? What need is there, then, of any kind of supernaturality for the existence of this "Moral Order"?
In this, you're asking whether a supernatural order will defy the definition of supernatural.

And of course, the answer is no.
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:39 AM   #93
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I'm agnostic and STILL agnostic though certain hyserical lefties on this forum have fevered fantasies that I am a "fundie Bible thumper."
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:40 AM   #94
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The idea that matter is intrinsically stupid and requires some external intelligence to shape it is part and parcel of an outmoded, artifactual model of the universe.
So matter is intelligent? Point understood. But not agreed to.
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:50 AM   #95
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So matter is intelligent? Point understood. But not agreed to.
Folks who are coming from a Western religious viewpoint are willing to marvel at just such intelligence on display in nature - as long as some unseen "man behind the curtain" gets the credit.
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:54 AM   #96
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Folks who are coming from a Western religious viewpoint are willing to marvel at just such intelligence on display in nature - as long as some unseen "man behind the curtain" gets the credit.
Matter has intelligence and created itself and put itself there
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:55 AM   #97
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Folks who are coming from a Western religious viewpoint are willing to marvel at just such intelligence on display in nature - as long as some unseen "man behind the curtain" gets the credit.
The "It Just Is" argument is no more persuasive than the idea that Someone/thing put it there.
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Old 09-03-2014, 12:05 PM   #98
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Matter has intelligence and created itself and put itself there
L0L @ DramaLlama pretending to be an agnostic.

The minute you sign on to the premise that matter is "created" then you are subscribing to the old-fashioned artifactual model of the physical universe.
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Old 09-03-2014, 12:07 PM   #99
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The "It Just Is" argument is no more persuasive than the idea that Someone/thing put it there.
Except that the former doesn't require evidence for some supernatural agent or other.

I'd say that's pretty persuasive.
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Old 09-03-2014, 12:11 PM   #100
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Matter has intelligence and created itself and put itself there
It's meaningless to say matter "created itself" at some point on some imagined linear timeline or that matter "put itself" in some point in space (from some other point) insofar as matter is what there is and all that there is. There is nothing other than or outside of matter (go ahead and replace "matter" with "God" if it makes you feel better, religious readers.)
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