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Old 06-09-2012, 06:09 AM   #876
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Tebow forced McCoy to make the offense simplistic because he can't pass. The argument that they did it because "McCoy is dumb" or even better, the front office and coaching staff were conspiring to make Tebow look bad "because they were jealous" are beyond laughable.
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:45 AM   #877
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Tebow forced McCoy to make the offense simplistic because he can't pass. The argument that they did it because "McCoy is dumb" or even better, the front office and coaching staff were conspiring to make Tebow look bad "because they were jealous" are beyond laughable.
Fox and Co could have won Coach of the year. What they did mid stream was all about coaching. I know for a fact they had a Brady Quinn 3rd down package installed for the Pitts game because that was how bad Tebow looked the last three games on 3rd down


Tebow can throw the long ball. But consistently needs to make the routine throws to keep the drive alive.

Even Philly with Vick want him to throw more run less and cut down on turnovers. Tebow was a fumble machine last year.
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:47 AM   #878
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Tebow forced McCoy to make the offense simplistic because he can't pass. The argument that they did it because "McCoy is dumb" or even better, the front office and coaching staff were conspiring to make Tebow look bad "because they were jealous" are beyond laughable.
People actually believe that too. Agreed its beyond laughable.
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:57 AM   #879
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Tebow forced McCoy to make the offense simplistic because he can't pass. The argument that they did it because "McCoy is dumb" or even better, the front office and coaching staff were conspiring to make Tebow look bad "because they were jealous" are beyond laughable.
Totally agree, its a ludicrous argument by the Tebow-only devotees,
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:23 AM   #880
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I don't think the "simplistic" offense helped Tebow. First of all, Tebow knew how to execute option plays, but other players on offense were not used to it. The offense was already comfortable with the system that McCoy inherited from McDaniels. And in the end, the zone-read option only hurt Tebow's development as a QB in the NFL. I believe Elway decided to put Tebow on the field to prove his fans wrong, get a high draft pick and find a proper replacement.

If the coordinator had to develop new plays and the players had to adjust to a new style on offense, then why did the Broncos make the change? Why didn't they keep Orton as the QB? Orton was the conventional QB executing the regular offense where everyone already knew what to do.

The Broncos make it sound as if Tebow as the starting QB was a burden that demanded adjustments and patience. That's a lot of hypocrisy, because they could have simply kept Orton at QB. Yes, the team was 1-4, but an inferior QB won't make the situation better.

If the Broncos made the change because of the pressure applied by the fans, then it's further proof that Elway just wanted to give an answer to the fans and show why he never fully committed to Tebow.

Tebow started 3 games as a rookie in 2010, playing in the regular system. He scored 7 TDs in those games. There was no zone-read option. Brandon Lloyd caught 14 passes for 263 yards. McCoy called a lot of screen passes. Veteran receivers like Lloyd and Gaffney helped Tebow.

In 2011, it was completely different. Very few screen passes and high percentage passes. A bunch of young receivers. Commitment to a heavy running game, which made Tebow look like an idiot. 8 passes against the Chiefs, most of them long bombs down the field. That kind of playcalling was humiliating, embarrassing.

I don't think McCoy deserve any applause for his adjustments to the offense in 2011. It was a freak show that cemented the perception of Tebow as a FB that throws the ball. This is not how you develop a QB in the NFL. But McCoy was probably following orders from a head coach that loves to see smashmouth football.

Tebow needs to play in a regular NFL offense, without that zone-read option crap, learn how to go through progressions with some experience and then use his athletic ability as a last resort like other starting QBs do. Give him some easy completions to make him feel comfortable, give him a rhythm. 2 of 8 for 69 yards against the Chiefs was not his fault, it was the play caller's fault. John Lynch was calling for screen passes against the Lions, and he was right. But maybe now it's too late. He's become the "wildcat" QB for the Jets, a backup that will play on special teams and play like a RB in goal line situations.

I understand John Elway and his opinion. He inherited Tebow, this weird running QB that came from a spread offense. Elway wanted a different type of QB. But the Broncos did not have to move from Orton to Tebow, and they did not have to install a college offense in the middle of the regular season. I guess Elway could not simply leave Tebow to rot as a backup and then trade him in the offseason. He had to prove something, show why Tebow was not his guy. Interestingly, the Broncos were able to win some games with Tebow and the quest for Andrew Luck became a distant dream.
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:31 AM   #881
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The discussion was about Troy Palamalu's observation on how repetitive and predictable the offense was, despite it working.

I can understand both of you wanting to constantly bring up Peyton Manning and talk about him -- it's an understandable trend for every thread to eventually be about the current quarterback.

But this is the "tebow sucks" thread, and it works kind of well to confine most discussion about Tebow to one thread. It seems to be the most popular thread by far for now.

So, to be clear, I don't mind if you repeatedly bring up Peyton Manning, but spare me the suggestion that I'm "constantly bringing up" this detail or that detail in the thread that's about tebow sucking.
you spewed crap about McCoy...just gave you my personal opinion on why he'll be considered a much better coordinator this coming season than he may have this past season....the main ingredient was adding a future hall of fame QB into the mix.....

As for the subject at hand, Tebow unfortunately isn't a polished passer, and quite frankly may never become one....is that better?
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:31 AM   #882
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I don't think the "simplistic" offense helped Tebow. First of all, Tebow knew how to execute option plays, but other players on offense were not used to it. The offense was already comfortable with the system that McCoy inherited from McDaniels. And in the end, the zone-read option only hurt Tebow's development as a QB in the NFL. I believe Elway decided to put Tebow on the field to prove his fans wrong, get a high draft pick and find a proper replacement.

If the coordinator had to develop new plays and the players had to adjust to a new style on offense, then why did the Broncos make the change? Why didn't they keep Orton as the QB? Orton was the conventional QB executing the regular offense where everyone already knew what to do.

The Broncos make it sound as if Tebow as the starting QB was a burden that demanded adjustments and patience. That's a lot of hypocrisy, because they could have simply kept Orton at QB. Yes, the team was 1-4, but an inferior QB won't make the situation better.

If the Broncos made the change because of the pressure applied by the fans, then it's further proof that Elway just wanted to give an answer to the fans and show why he never fully committed to Tebow.

Tebow started 3 games as a rookie in 2010, playing in the regular system. He scored 7 TDs in those games. There was no zone-read option. Brandon Lloyd caught 14 passes for 263 yards. McCoy called a lot of screen passes. Veteran receivers like Lloyd and Gaffney helped Tebow.

In 2011, it was completely different. Very few screen passes and high percentage passes. A bunch of young receivers. Commitment to a heavy running game, which made Tebow look like an idiot. 8 passes against the Chiefs, most of them long bombs down the field. That kind of playcalling was humiliating, embarrassing.

I don't think McCoy deserve any applause for his adjustments to the offense in 2011. It was a freak show that cemented the perception of Tebow as a FB that throws the ball. This is not how you develop a QB in the NFL. But McCoy was probably following orders from a head coach that loves to see smashmouth football.

Tebow needs to play in a regular NFL offense, without that zone-read option crap, learn how to go through progressions with some experience and then use his athletic ability as a last resort like other starting QBs do. Give him some easy completions to make him feel comfortable, give him a rhythm. 2 of 8 for 69 yards against the Chiefs was not his fault, it was the play caller's fault. John Lynch was calling for screen passes against the Lions, and he was right. But maybe now it's too late. He's become the "wildcat" QB for the Jets, a backup that will play on special teams and play like a RB in goal line situations.

I understand John Elway and his opinion. He inherited Tebow, this weird running QB that came from a spread offense. Elway wanted a different type of QB. But the Broncos did not have to move from Orton to Tebow, and they did not have to install a college offense in the middle of the regular season. I guess Elway could not simply leave Tebow to rot as a backup and then trade him in the offseason. He had to prove something, show why Tebow was not his guy. Interestingly, the Broncos were able to win some games with Tebow and the quest for Andrew Luck became a distant dream.
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:32 AM   #883
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Tebow forced McCoy to make the offense simplistic because he can't pass. The argument that they did it because "McCoy is dumb" or even better, the front office and coaching staff were conspiring to make Tebow look bad "because they were jealous" are beyond laughable.
This highlights my point -- people tend to give too much benefit of doubt to McCoy and assume he did the only thing Tebow could do. But the truth is not that black and white -- McCoy is accountable for Tebow's entire development up until that time, too.

They made their decision -- develop Kyle Orton, and also dabble with the notion that Brady Quinn was also #2 and got a lot of the install reps.

(I know, I know, it all relates back to Tebow being so horrible. Everything through that lens.)
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:34 AM   #884
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Totally agree, its a ludicrous argument by the Tebow-only devotees,
I think the "jealousy" and conspiracy theories are ludicrous (they aren't even really coherent). But I also think the team's management was intending to "suck for Luck." They had no idea they would be able to win so many games with about 3 plays installed, and Tebow taking over in the end.

No question -- they expected to lose their ass. They dumped Brandon Lloyd because they had no idea there would be a playoff run. They let Kyle Orton go for nothing because they had no idea they might actually need a backup.
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:36 AM   #885
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you spewed crap about McCoy...just gave you my personal opinion on why he'll be considered a much better coordinator this coming season than he may have this past season....the main ingredient was adding a future hall of fame QB into the mix.....

As for the subject at hand, Tebow unfortunately isn't a polished passer, and quite frankly may never become one....is that better?
That was what I was clarifying -- the mention of McCoy was in the context of Palamalu's observation about the offense.

Tebow not being a polished passer is an understatement. May never become one, remains to be seen. He's a very special talent.
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:38 AM   #886
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I don't think the "simplistic" offense helped Tebow. First of all, Tebow knew how to execute option plays, but other players on offense were not used to it. The offense was already comfortable with the system that McCoy inherited from McDaniels. And in the end, the zone-read option only hurt Tebow's development as a QB in the NFL. I believe Elway decided to put Tebow on the field to prove his fans wrong, get a high draft pick and find a proper replacement.

If the coordinator had to develop new plays and the players had to adjust to a new style on offense, then why did the Broncos make the change? Why didn't they keep Orton as the QB? Orton was the conventional QB executing the regular offense where everyone already knew what to do.

The Broncos make it sound as if Tebow as the starting QB was a burden that demanded adjustments and patience. That's a lot of hypocrisy, because they could have simply kept Orton at QB. Yes, the team was 1-4, but an inferior QB won't make the situation better.

If the Broncos made the change because of the pressure applied by the fans, then it's further proof that Elway just wanted to give an answer to the fans and show why he never fully committed to Tebow.

Tebow started 3 games as a rookie in 2010, playing in the regular system. He scored 7 TDs in those games. There was no zone-read option. Brandon Lloyd caught 14 passes for 263 yards. McCoy called a lot of screen passes. Veteran receivers like Lloyd and Gaffney helped Tebow.

In 2011, it was completely different. Very few screen passes and high percentage passes. A bunch of young receivers. Commitment to a heavy running game, which made Tebow look like an idiot. 8 passes against the Chiefs, most of them long bombs down the field. That kind of playcalling was humiliating, embarrassing.

I don't think McCoy deserve any applause for his adjustments to the offense in 2011. It was a freak show that cemented the perception of Tebow as a FB that throws the ball. This is not how you develop a QB in the NFL. But McCoy was probably following orders from a head coach that loves to see smashmouth football.

Tebow needs to play in a regular NFL offense, without that zone-read option crap, learn how to go through progressions with some experience and then use his athletic ability as a last resort like other starting QBs do. Give him some easy completions to make him feel comfortable, give him a rhythm. 2 of 8 for 69 yards against the Chiefs was not his fault, it was the play caller's fault. John Lynch was calling for screen passes against the Lions, and he was right. But maybe now it's too late. He's become the "wildcat" QB for the Jets, a backup that will play on special teams and play like a RB in goal line situations.

I understand John Elway and his opinion. He inherited Tebow, this weird running QB that came from a spread offense. Elway wanted a different type of QB. But the Broncos did not have to move from Orton to Tebow, and they did not have to install a college offense in the middle of the regular season. I guess Elway could not simply leave Tebow to rot as a backup and then trade him in the offseason. He had to prove something, show why Tebow was not his guy. Interestingly, the Broncos were able to win some games with Tebow and the quest for Andrew Luck became a distant dream.
I agree with all this, but I do think Tebow needs to work primarily out of the shotgun (like Brady does). His whole career, he will be a threat to run up the middle. May as well build some sets out of that look. It's almost like having play action pass on every play (for free).

Spread it out, create space and holes, and let him audible to run plays any time in the game he sees the right read. Make the defense constantly question which he's going to do.
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:11 AM   #887
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Tebow forced McCoy to make the offense simplistic because he can't pass. The argument that they did it because "McCoy is dumb" or even better, the front office and coaching staff were conspiring to make Tebow look bad "because they were jealous" are beyond laughable.
That's the part I don't understand. Why was McCoy "forced" to simplify the entire offense? If Tebow can't pass why was he named the starter? They had Orton, a veteran QB to run the offense conventionally. Keep Tebow on the bench if he can't pass.

Elway and his staff were not jealous. They just did not believe in Tebow as a professional QB. It's not jealousy, it's despise in a professional way (not personal). Elway watched Tebow throw the ball and thought "there is no way you're gonna be my QB of the future."

So, if Tebow was so bad, why did they put Orton on the bench? 1-4 record? So what? You have a better chance of winning the next games with a QB that can pass. The 1-4 record won't be fixed by a QB that needs a simplified offense.

The only answer that is left: "The fans." The fans wanted Tebow, they forced the Broncos to put Tebow on the field, even if he was the worst QB on the roster. So, Elway was willing to lose games just to prove the fans wrong? Was he willing to let an inferior QB sink the Broncos to justify a new direction in 2012? Was Elway sucking for Luck? If not, then why did he keep Orton, the superior QB that can throw the ball, as a backup?
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:35 AM   #888
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The most alarming stat of the Broncos' offense as they closed the 2011 season: In the first half of their final four games, the Broncos ran the ball on 45- of-49 first-down plays.
If I had to guess, I'd say the opposing defensive coaches were calling around 75% of the plays the Broncos were running through the first 3 quarters.

Anyone who has any sort of success in that scenario deserves major props. The idea that McCoy is even competent is laughable.
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:45 AM   #889
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Anyone who has any sort of success in that scenario deserves major props. The idea that McCoy is even competent is laughable.
......this coming from some clown that thinks Tebow is a competent passer....
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:46 PM   #890
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If I had to guess, I'd say the opposing defensive coaches were calling around 75% of the plays the Broncos were running through the first 3 quarters.

Anyone who has any sort of success in that scenario deserves major props. The idea that McCoy is even competent is laughable.
This is how I see it. I knew what was coming every time.

I never thought McCoy would hang on that job. Now it's perfect -- Manning rapes whatever OC they give him anyway, so McCoy's got this gig under control. But he flat out cannot game plan or play-call. His biggest strength is recognizing that and not trying to get cute.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:01 PM   #891
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McCoy was following orders from the head coach. If John Fox wanted something different, he would have told McCoy to show more balance on 1st down. I thought McCoy called good plays in the final games of 2010 (after McDaniels was fired) and in 2011 when Orton was the starter. He just did not have experience with the "Tebow offense" and Fox told him to run the ball again and again.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:10 PM   #892
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McCoy was following orders from the head coach. If John Fox wanted something different, he would have told McCoy to show more balance on 1st down. I thought McCoy called good plays in the final games of 2010 (after McDaniels was fired) and in 2011 when Orton was the starter. He just did not have experience with the "Tebow offense" and Fox told him to run the ball again and again.
Disagree with him every calling good plays. I think he seemed flummoxed from start to finish.

Also: I like the word "flummoxed."
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:17 PM   #893
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This is how I see it. I knew what was coming every time.

I never thought McCoy would hang on that job. Now it's perfect -- Manning rapes whatever OC they give him anyway, so McCoy's got this gig under control. But he flat out cannot game plan or play-call. His biggest strength is recognizing that and not trying to get cute.
when your QBs only strength is to run the ball,the offense will have a strong tendancy to be predictable.
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:01 PM   #894
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when your QBs only strength is to run the ball,the offense will have a strong tendancy to be predictable.
Yep -- that's my point. The "lens of Tebow." People that hate Tebow tend to think McCoy's a genius. I'm suggesting you can hate Tebow and still think McCoy is thoroughly mediocre. That's what I think.
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:15 PM   #895
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Yep -- that's my point. The "lens of Tebow." People that hate Tebow tend to think McCoy's a genius. I'm suggesting you can hate Tebow and still think McCoy is thoroughly mediocre. That's what I think.
I've never stated nor have I ever implied that McCoy is some kind of genius.
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:21 PM   #896
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I've never stated nor have I ever implied that McCoy is some kind of genius.
It's a figure of speech. Splitting hairs on the internet is a waste of your time and mine.
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:38 PM   #897
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Yep -- that's my point. The "lens of Tebow." People that hate Tebow tend to think McCoy's a genius. I'm suggesting you can hate Tebow and still think McCoy is thoroughly mediocre. That's what I think.
The converse is also true... those who were heavily emotionally invested in Tebow tend to divert criticism off of Tebow and onto McCoy. It is also possible to love Tebow without shredding McCoy.

The truth is somewhere in the middle of the two extremes.
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Old 06-09-2012, 09:16 PM   #898
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The converse is also true... those who were heavily emotionally invested in Tebow tend to divert criticism off of Tebow and onto McCoy. It is also possible to love Tebow without shredding McCoy.

The truth is somewhere in the middle of the two extremes.
Call me crazy, but I tend to agree, but with the polarizing nature of the Tebow topic it's hard to find many who can talk about it without becoming entrenched in one side or the other.
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Old 06-09-2012, 09:33 PM   #899
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I think the "jealousy" and conspiracy theories are ludicrous (they aren't even really coherent). But I also think the team's management was intending to "suck for Luck." They had no idea they would be able to win so many games with about 3 plays installed, and Tebow taking over in the end.

No question -- they expected to lose their ass. They dumped Brandon Lloyd because they had no idea there would be a playoff run. They let Kyle Orton go for nothing because they had no idea they might actually need a backup.
Come on Tebowite! We were 1 and 4 with Orton. If we wanted to suck for Luck, we were already doing an accidental job on it 5 games in and would have stayed the course.
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Old 06-09-2012, 09:39 PM   #900
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Tebow is a King James fan. He knows what's up.
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