BTK - DNA sample taken without permission - The Orange Mane

alkemical · 03-09-2005, 12:55 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/03/bt....ap/index.html

DNA samples have linked Rader to the killings, according to Gov. Kathleen Sebelius. Police have said they obtained semen from the crime scenes, even though the killer did not sexually assault his victims.

The Wichita Eagle reported Thursday, citing unidentified sources, that investigators had obtained DNA before Rader's arrest from a tissue sample that came from his 26-year-old daughter's medical records. They took it without her knowledge, to keep Radar from discovering they were zeroing in on him, the newspaper said.

______

Getting BTK off the streets is a good thing - but is obtaining DNA without consent a good idea?

Crushaholic · 03-09-2005, 01:15 PM

There's a fine line between invading someone's rights and conducting a safe, effective criminal investigation. I think taking DNA samples without permission is OK because it's looking for something specific. Searching one's house without their permission, for instance, WOULD cross the line because they may find personal things that are not relevant to the investigation. Matching DNA without the possible suspect alerted is fine with me.

Old Dude · 03-09-2005, 03:16 PM

So if they violated the adult daughter's medical privacy, would that necessarily violate Rader's rights?

Hercules Rockefeller · 03-09-2005, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Dude

So if they violated the adult daughter's medical privacy, would that necessarily violate Rader's rights?

If it is illegal in Kansas to obtain medical information without the person's consent or a court order, then yes it could violate his rights. The State would be using evidence against him that was illegally obtained, and depending on what the Kansas Rules of Evidence say in regard to the admissibility of illegally obtained evidence, all that DNA evidence might be ruled inadmissible by the court.

That is absolutely idiotic if the investigators were so overzealous they illegally obtained that DNA evidence. It looks like there's some other evidence that can nail him, but that stuff is probably going to put it over the top.

Hercules Rockefeller · 03-09-2005, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crushaholic

There's a fine line between invading someone's rights and conducting a safe, effective criminal investigation. I think taking DNA samples without permission is OK because it's looking for something specific. Searching one's house without their permission, for instance, WOULD cross the line because they may find personal things that are not relevant to the investigation. Matching DNA without the possible suspect alerted is fine with me.

No way. Cops shouldn't have access to anyone's private medical records without the individual's consent or a court order. If they're looking for something specific, that means they already have evidence and they can go show a judge what they have in order to get the order. If they don't feel strong enough about their case to get the records the correct way, then they should seriously question why they are targeting that person in the first place.

alkemical · 03-10-2005, 04:35 AM

I'll admit we probably won't know the real info until the trial starts, but i found that nugget and was sort of mad. If there is some law that was passed (bundled in some patroit act or something for example) - this would piss me off.

Crushaholic · 03-10-2005, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

No way. Cops shouldn't have access to anyone's private medical records without the individual's consent or a court order. If they're looking for something specific, that means they already have evidence and they can go show a judge what they have in order to get the order. If they don't feel strong enough about their case to get the records the correct way, then they should seriously question why they are targeting that person in the first place.

Good point. They could have obtained a court order to get the DNA samples, but I don't believe that would require consent from the relative. I don't know the Kansas law about medical records privacy (I should, but I don't). I still stand behind my belief that it's OK not to tip off Rader that this is being done. There's no reason to collect DNA samples unless you want to find a match.

alkemical · 03-10-2005, 09:16 AM

http://www.spitting-image.net/archives/002910.html
Cops Covertly Acquired Tissue of BTK Suspects Daughter...from Medical Lab
"...the article...doesn't raise the fact that what was apparently
requested was NOT "health information" - what HIPAA (federal medical privacy laws) protects - but _actual tissue_ from the suspect's daughter's file samples.
I'm operating on a few words from one article here, so the facts aren't definitive, but this seems quite an interesting breach of privacy
expectations, independent of how it may legally turn out.
On one hand, court-compelled physical examinations have been ruled
Constitutionally sound (thus, you can be compelled to give a tissue sample, or even forcibly sampled.)
On the other hand, how many American women even know labs keep pap smear samples, much less would think it reasonable that their pap smears would one day be turned over to police to tentatively connect their sons or daughters to crimes?"
~They got the bad guy! He's a suspected serial kiler! BTK stands for "binding, torturing and killing".

Crushaholic · 03-10-2005, 09:32 AM

I found a place where you can find all sorts of information about this case. I haven't gone through all the articles, but there are some interesting articles concerning the DNA issue...

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/new..._packages/btk/

alkemical · 03-10-2005, 09:33 AM

I'm glad this is of interest to people that aren't crazy like me!

Crushaholic · 03-10-2005, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amesj523

I'm glad this is of interest to people that aren't crazy like me!

BTK has been haunting Wichita off and on for about 30 years. It is a HUGE deal there. Of course, it IS Wichita, KS. Take it for what that's worth. Not many things are newsworthy down this way...

alkemical · 03-10-2005, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crushaholic

BTK has been haunting Wichita off and on for about 30 years. It is a HUGE deal there. Of course, it IS Wichita, KS. Take it for what that's worth. Not many things are newsworthy down this way...

hey you had the guy fly round the world and land in salinia, ks -

Old Dude · 03-10-2005, 08:19 PM

Clark Kent was raised in Smallville. What more do you want?

alkemical · 03-11-2005, 04:54 AM

and you got the worlds largest prarie dog, and a 5 legged cow, and the wizard of oz took place there -

sheesh you people in kansas are greedy.... serial killers, world class adventurers, cool heros - it's not like you live in utah.

Crushaholic · 03-11-2005, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Dude

Clark Kent was raised in Smallville. What more do you want?

2 things wrong with that. It's a fictional town and Clark Kent had to get OUT of Kansas to do anything noteworthy...

This has been a good month for news in Kansas, though...

Rock Chalk · 03-16-2005, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amesj523

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/03/bt....ap/index.html

DNA samples have linked Rader to the killings, according to Gov. Kathleen Sebelius. Police have said they obtained semen from the crime scenes, even though the killer did not sexually assault his victims.

The Wichita Eagle reported Thursday, citing unidentified sources, that investigators had obtained DNA before Rader's arrest from a tissue sample that came from his 26-year-old daughter's medical records. They took it without her knowledge, to keep Radar from discovering they were zeroing in on him, the newspaper said.

______

Getting BTK off the streets is a good thing - but is obtaining DNA without consent a good idea?

End justifies the means.

Of course, if BTK had killed your daughter or sister you would never have asked this question.

03-09-2005, 12:55 PM	#1
alkemical Guerrilla Ontologist rorrim\|mirror Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Future Posts: 42,691 Adopt-a-Bronco: Prima Materia	BTK - DNA sample taken without permission http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/03/bt....ap/index.html DNA samples have linked Rader to the killings, according to Gov. Kathleen Sebelius. Police have said they obtained semen from the crime scenes, even though the killer did not sexually assault his victims. The Wichita Eagle reported Thursday, citing unidentified sources, that investigators had obtained DNA before Rader's arrest from a tissue sample that came from his 26-year-old daughter's medical records. They took it without her knowledge, to keep Radar from discovering they were zeroing in on him, the newspaper said. ______ Getting BTK off the streets is a good thing - but is obtaining DNA without consent a good idea?

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03-09-2005, 01:15 PM	#2
Crushaholic Armchair Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Topeka, KS Posts: 22,039	There's a fine line between invading someone's rights and conducting a safe, effective criminal investigation. I think taking DNA samples without permission is OK because it's looking for something specific. Searching one's house without their permission, for instance, WOULD cross the line because they may find personal things that are not relevant to the investigation. Matching DNA without the possible suspect alerted is fine with me.

03-09-2005, 03:16 PM	#3
Old Dude Host Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: As if I'd tell you crazies! Posts: 14,146	So if they violated the adult daughter's medical privacy, would that necessarily violate Rader's rights?

03-10-2005, 04:35 AM	#6
alkemical Guerrilla Ontologist rorrim\|mirror Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Future Posts: 42,691 Adopt-a-Bronco: Prima Materia	I'll admit we probably won't know the real info until the trial starts, but i found that nugget and was sort of mad. If there is some law that was passed (bundled in some patroit act or something for example) - this would piss me off.

03-10-2005, 09:16 AM	#8
alkemical Guerrilla Ontologist rorrim\|mirror Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Future Posts: 42,691 Adopt-a-Bronco: Prima Materia	http://www.spitting-image.net/archives/002910.html Cops Covertly Acquired Tissue of BTK Suspects Daughter...from Medical Lab "...the article...doesn't raise the fact that what was apparently requested was NOT "health information" - what HIPAA (federal medical privacy laws) protects - but _actual tissue_ from the suspect's daughter's file samples. I'm operating on a few words from one article here, so the facts aren't definitive, but this seems quite an interesting breach of privacy expectations, independent of how it may legally turn out. On one hand, court-compelled physical examinations have been ruled Constitutionally sound (thus, you can be compelled to give a tissue sample, or even forcibly sampled.) On the other hand, how many American women even know labs keep pap smear samples, much less would think it reasonable that their pap smears would one day be turned over to police to tentatively connect their sons or daughters to crimes?" ~They got the bad guy! He's a suspected serial kiler! BTK stands for "binding, torturing and killing".

03-10-2005, 09:32 AM	#9
Crushaholic Armchair Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Topeka, KS Posts: 22,039	I found a place where you can find all sorts of information about this case. I haven't gone through all the articles, but there are some interesting articles concerning the DNA issue... http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/new..._packages/btk/

03-10-2005, 09:33 AM	#10
alkemical Guerrilla Ontologist rorrim\|mirror Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Future Posts: 42,691 Adopt-a-Bronco: Prima Materia	I'm glad this is of interest to people that aren't crazy like me!

03-10-2005, 08:19 PM	#13
Old Dude Host Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: As if I'd tell you crazies! Posts: 14,146	Clark Kent was raised in Smallville. What more do you want?

03-11-2005, 04:54 AM	#14
alkemical Guerrilla Ontologist rorrim\|mirror Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Future Posts: 42,691 Adopt-a-Bronco: Prima Materia	and you got the worlds largest prarie dog, and a 5 legged cow, and the wizard of oz took place there - sheesh you people in kansas are greedy.... serial killers, world class adventurers, cool heros - it's not like you live in utah.