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Old 06-13-2014, 12:11 PM   #226
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^ ^ ^ ^


hahahahahahahaha

where's mr. flightsuit
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:16 PM   #227
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Haven't read all the posts but I am wondering what the best alternative solutions are to Obama's feckless foreign policy

1) He should have armed the moderate rebels in Syria - maybe, or maybe all those arms would be squarely in the hands of Islamists just like many of the arms that we deployed for the Iraqi govt in Sunni Iraq. Honestly I tend to think the latter is more likely and more in keeping with the usual fate of arms that we send to such conflicts

2) Should never have left Iraq, i.e. boots on the ground. Granted boots on the ground would have stopped the ISIS advance at the costs of more American lives and American money. When superior armed and equipped Iraqi forces strip off their uniforms turn tail and run abandoning their arms to the advancing rebels it would have required American forces to pick up the fight.

3) Libya - boots on the ground again? I get the Benghazi debate sort of but I am still not sure what the great foreign policy strategy would have been that would have worked so well in Libya. A few air strikes aside the US was barely involved.

4) Egypt - . The military, i.e. our old ally, is firmly back in command.

5) Russia - . Again no military options. Are we suggesting that Obama is too feckless to get Europeans to can their own interests and seriously sanction Russia at the risk of torpedoing their own fragile economy over Ukraine and that Mitt Romney or John Mccain could have gotten them to go along with this plan?

Obama is no foreign policy mastermind but until I hear the foreign policies that would likely have worked in the above situations I will continue to consider them no win situations.
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:17 PM   #228
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I just think those days of yore are long gone. You had guys like TR or Lyndon Johnson who used to threaten congress members with personal **** if he didn't fall in line.

This is gonna sound like "hey kids get off my lawn" type ****, but i think the downfall of our political system is a side effect of the internet, social media, and the 24 hour news cycle. two reasons: 1) politicans can get immediate feedback from their base, so there's more danger in compromise. 2) Considering there's several news organizations only reporting one type of news, and we're constantly being fed it, constantly defending our position on places like, well here, we just further cement our beliefs until we have zero interest in budging. Im sure I'm guilty of it, just like everyone else is.

I just find the whole thing disgusting. its a bunch of caveman grunting and chest beating. I cant remember the last political conversation I had that wasnt filled with vitriol.

I stand at the far left of most of you, but I do agree that our direction is way off course. It's not a left or right issue, its a systematic issue. We're a rich nation, but I don't see how we will ever continue to grow when the country is firmly split down the middle, and neither side has any interest in something that even resembles a compromise. (though, as stated, i think the hijacked conservative party is more to blame here. Again, im not blaming conservatism, but this bull**** like the tea party isnt helping matters when every single talking point they have is unreasonable.)
The Tea Party is a radical, ideological movement that has nothing to do with conservatism.

I think our biggest problem is that there are corporate lobbyists in every facet of our government buying favoritism. We are basically running a crony capitalist, banana republic-type of system. The opinion of the people is rarely heard, and only when it gets real noisy on an issue. Let's put it this way: The guy who was most instrumental in taking down Glass/Steagle which allowed the destruction of the U.S. economy, Phil Gramm, left government to take a job as VP at USB, a foreign bank which benefited mightily from the Great Recession. For me, that one little story says it all in a nutshell.
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:21 PM   #229
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The Tea Party is a radical, ideological movement that has nothing to do with conservatism.

I think our biggest problem is that there are corporate lobbyists in every facet of our government buying favoritism. We are basically running a crony capitalist, banana republic-type of system. The opinion of the people is rarely heard, and only when it gets real noisy on an issue. Let's put it this way: The guy who was most instrumental in taking down Glass/Steagle which allowed the destruction of the U.S. economy, Phil Gramm, left government to take a job as VP at USB, a foreign bank which benefited mightily from the Great Recession. For me, that one little story says it all in a nutshell.
No doubt. Until we rethink and redefine corporations(which will require state constitutional action) there is little hope to truly reclaim the federal govt.
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:24 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by kappys View Post
Haven't read all the posts but I am wondering what the best alternative solutions are to Obama's feckless foreign policy

1) He should have armed the moderate rebels in Syria - maybe, or maybe all those arms would be squarely in the hands of Islamists just like many of the arms that we deployed for the Iraqi govt in Sunni Iraq. Honestly I tend to think the latter is more likely and more in keeping with the usual fate of arms that we send to such conflicts

2) Should never have left Iraq, i.e. boots on the ground. Granted boots on the ground would have stopped the ISIS advance at the costs of more American lives and American money. When superior armed and equipped Iraqi forces strip off their uniforms turn tail and run abandoning their arms to the advancing rebels it would have required American forces to pick up the fight.

3) Libya - boots on the ground again? I get the Benghazi debate sort of but I am still not sure what the great foreign policy strategy would have been that would have worked so well in Libya. A few air strikes aside the US was barely involved.

4) Egypt - . The military, i.e. our old ally, is firmly back in command.

5) Russia - . Again no military options. Are we suggesting that Obama is too feckless to get Europeans to can their own interests and seriously sanction Russia at the risk of torpedoing their own fragile economy over Ukraine and that Mitt Romney or John Mccain could have gotten them to go along with this plan?

Obama is no foreign policy mastermind but until I hear the foreign policies that would likely have worked in the above situations I will continue to consider them no win situations.
I think the economic disaster that overtook this country in 2008 has hamstrung our foreign policy as well. Putin knows we don't have the resources to seriously do anything against him. Not unless we borrow more money from China. Our economic weakness has led to foreign policy weakness. Iraq was part of that. So was Afghanistan. Our military resources were spread too thin and the cost was too much. We flushed over a trillion down those ****holes. Economic strength is the foundation of America's worldwide influence. When that goes, nobody has to listen to us.
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:48 PM   #231
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Back to the OP: hope the Iraqis recover. Why did the national army flee? Jesus! So tough for these countries to build a political consensus. We need to spend more time pondering solutions and less on myopic p.r. offensives on leadership.

Why is everything Obama Obama Obama all the time? He’s one person. What about Congress? What about the American mentality since WWII? What of all our various political and financial interests the world over?

You know what our problem is? No critical thinking, mass stupidity and public irresponsibility.
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:02 PM   #232
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More and more the problem is becoming Sunni Islam. The Shia - for all our disagreements with Iran, Lebanon, and Assad in Syria seem to be the far more reasonable group of persons. In Tehran women have some modicum of basic rights(not much but a lot better than Saudi Arabia). The Northern Alliance in Afghan has a strong Shia component as well.

Meanwhile the Sunnis seem to be going off the deep end - increasingly radical in Afghan-Pak, Syria, Saudi Arabia and now Africa. Promoting Wahabism and Sharia law. The only moderate Sunni group left appears to be the Kurds who have been oppressed enough by both Arab Sunnis and Shias to be focused on their own interests primarily.

Historically the US along with Isreal has struck a strong bargain with Sunni countries - tight relationship with Saudi Arabia(where the largest oil fields are in the Shia East of the country), good relations with Egypt/Syria at least to the point of having relative peace in Isreal for whom the only recent hot conflicts have been with Lebanon which is Shia funded. While the leadership of these countries are eager to see these arrangements continue the average citizens are not and the election of extremist elements by popular vote such as in Egypt reflects this.

Perhaps it is time for a strategic pivot towards Shia Iran? Seems like a crazy thought but more and more it seems like Sunni nations are becoming progressively more destabilized
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:30 PM   #233
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According to WND, there are approximately 200 US contractors that were abandoned at Balad Air Force base and are trying to fend off ISIS. Don't know the accuracy of this considering the climate over there right now but if it's true and the Air Force really is in a stand down order then this could end up being terrible...
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:34 PM   #234
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...hdad-live.html

Kurdish Fighters Succeed Where Iraqi Army Fails


Erbil, Iraq—Brig. Halgord Hikmat, the spokesman for the Kurdistan Regional Government's Peshmerga Ministry, made little effort to conceal his satisfaction on Friday. "Yes," he said with a cheeky grin. "It is a very nice time to be Kurdish." Only a few hours before, Kurdish soldiers known as Peshmerga were engaging Islamist insurgent fighters in Diyala Province, picking up the slack from hundreds of retreating Iraqi troops. On Thursday Peshmerga fighters moved decisively to occupy the nearby city of Kirkuk, easily expelling Islamist fighters who had sent Iraqi troops literally running for the hills. The Iraqi government in Baghdad has suffered a string of humiliating military defeats this week as insurgents from the al Qaeda-inspired Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham conquered several major cities. But for Iraq's long put-upon Kurdish minority, the past week has offered perhaps the finest opportunity in a generation to assert the Kurds' long-delayed claims on disputed lands and eventually, said Brig. Hikmat, a fully independent Kurdish state.
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:35 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by kappys View Post
More and more the problem is becoming Sunni Islam. The Shia - for all our disagreements with Iran, Lebanon, and Assad in Syria seem to be the far more reasonable group of persons. In Tehran women have some modicum of basic rights(not much but a lot better than Saudi Arabia). The Northern Alliance in Afghan has a strong Shia component as well.

Meanwhile the Sunnis seem to be going off the deep end - increasingly radical in Afghan-Pak, Syria, Saudi Arabia and now Africa. Promoting Wahabism and Sharia law. The only moderate Sunni group left appears to be the Kurds who have been oppressed enough by both Arab Sunnis and Shias to be focused on their own interests primarily.

Historically the US along with Isreal has struck a strong bargain with Sunni countries - tight relationship with Saudi Arabia(where the largest oil fields are in the Shia East of the country), good relations with Egypt/Syria at least to the point of having relative peace in Isreal for whom the only recent hot conflicts have been with Lebanon which is Shia funded. While the leadership of these countries are eager to see these arrangements continue the average citizens are not and the election of extremist elements by popular vote such as in Egypt reflects this.

Perhaps it is time for a strategic pivot towards Shia Iran? Seems like a crazy thought but more and more it seems like Sunni nations are becoming progressively more destabilized
I guarantee you that these new fundamentalists, ISIS, are also receiving a great amount of their funding from our Saudi "allies."
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Old 06-13-2014, 02:31 PM   #236
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So you telling me I went to some of these **** hole....on 4 tours for nothing!Other than a lot of skull logs on my helmet.What a JOKE!Men died for nothing!

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Old 06-13-2014, 02:54 PM   #237
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So you telling me I went to some of these **** hole....on 4 tours for nothing!Other than a lot of skull logs on my helmet.What a JOKE!Men died for nothing!
How do you think they guys that went to Vietnam felt? Wars these days aren't like they were hundreds of years ago, where there was a decisive winner. There can be years of bloodshed and occupation and in the end, things can easily go back to the way the were before.
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Old 06-13-2014, 02:56 PM   #238
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That's awesome. I was posting it as a joke but he immediately went there. Bush didn't want the troops pulled out. There were set of criteria that were to be kept in-house and when the country met those criteria, the phase out would begin.

This is absolutely Obama's fault.
Oh, for Pete's sake. Grow up, please.

GWB spent BILLIONS of YOUR money to build beautiful Air Bases, topnotch artillery and armor, everything right down to socks and boots for HIS view of a shining USA-style Democracy in Iraq. I told you this would happen from day one, but you were waving your flag cheering on GWB/Cheney.

Grow up, Kaylore.
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Old 06-13-2014, 03:12 PM   #239
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That's awesome. I was posting it as a joke but he immediately went there. Bush didn't want the troops pulled out. There were set of criteria that were to be kept in-house and when the country met those criteria, the phase out would begin.

This is absolutely Obama's fault.
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Oh, for Pete's sake. Grow up, please.

GWB spent BILLIONS of YOUR money to build beautiful Air Bases, topnotch artillery and armor, everything right down to socks and boots for HIS view of a shining USA-style Democracy in Iraq. I told you this would happen from day one, but you were waving your flag cheering on GWB/Cheney.

Grow up, Kaylore.
I don't think Kaylore realizes how much per day the war was costing. We simply could not AFFORD to stay, period. We can't AFFORD to go back either. Actually, he probably does know how much it costed but any opportunity to crack on Obama gives him a woody.
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Old 06-13-2014, 03:29 PM   #240
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Here's some info on Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who Obama let go in 2009:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...et-him-go.html
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Old 06-13-2014, 03:34 PM   #241
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Wow, if Iran is the savior in this situation, or to a lesser degree turkey or kurds, I can't imagine a more embarrassing situation for US foreign relations. This is what happens when you have an incompetent president followed by a feeble president.
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Old 06-13-2014, 04:18 PM   #242
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Speaking of facts; The pull-out from Iraq was designed and agreed to (we have the documents) by Bush. Obama's policies in Iraq and Afghanistan have been carbon copies of Bush's policy, although Obama has been a little more drone-crazy than Bush. Of course, given the opportunity, I'm sure Bush would have done the same thing.
This shyt is so funny. These guys were giving obama all the praise and accolades for pulling our troops out of Iraq. Not surprisingly now that it isn't going so well it's bush's fault.
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Old 06-13-2014, 04:49 PM   #243
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any opportunity to crack on Obama gives him a woody.
If that were true my penis would have exploded years ago.
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Old 06-13-2014, 04:51 PM   #244
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This shyt is so funny. These guys were giving obama all the praise and accolades for pulling our troops out of Iraq. Not surprisingly now that it isn't going so well it's bush's fault.
Exactly.

2009: Obama is going to bring the troops home! He made good on his promise!

2014: Well we had to leave because the government told us to and Bush made this mess. Really Obama is just an innocent bystander. All eight years of his presidency have just been a lot of gosh-darn bad luck.
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:05 PM   #245
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The root cause of this crisis isn't Bush or Obama it's al-Maliki. It's his polices and actions that have lead to this disaster. If he not removed from office but the Iraq parliament, then there is nothing the US can do to stop this problem. The Iraq army didn't collapse because US pulled force out, it failed because al-Maliki promoted officers that had political ties to him vs merit. The Sunni tribe are siding with ISIS because al-Maliki forces in the area were corrupt and stealing for the local population.

And if the US engages now then we just keep the problem in power and ensue that his patrons in Iran continue to have strong influence over Iraq
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:41 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by kappys View Post
Haven't read all the posts but I am wondering what the best alternative solutions are to Obama's feckless foreign policy

1) He should have armed the moderate rebels in Syria - maybe, or maybe all those arms would be squarely in the hands of Islamists just like many of the arms that we deployed for the Iraqi govt in Sunni Iraq. Honestly I tend to think the latter is more likely and more in keeping with the usual fate of arms that we send to such conflicts

2) Should never have left Iraq, i.e. boots on the ground. Granted boots on the ground would have stopped the ISIS advance at the costs of more American lives and American money. When superior armed and equipped Iraqi forces strip off their uniforms turn tail and run abandoning their arms to the advancing rebels it would have required American forces to pick up the fight.

3) Libya - boots on the ground again? I get the Benghazi debate sort of but I am still not sure what the great foreign policy strategy would have been that would have worked so well in Libya. A few air strikes aside the US was barely involved.

4) Egypt - . The military, i.e. our old ally, is firmly back in command.

5) Russia - . Again no military options. Are we suggesting that Obama is too feckless to get Europeans to can their own interests and seriously sanction Russia at the risk of torpedoing their own fragile economy over Ukraine and that Mitt Romney or John Mccain could have gotten them to go along with this plan?

Obama is no foreign policy mastermind but until I hear the foreign policies that would likely have worked in the above situations I will continue to consider them no win situations.
I pretty well agree 100%. Obama is terrible at his job, but this stuff is mostly Bush's legacy. The entire situation was no-win from the outset. We just sent people over to bleed without any real plan for victory. Whoever had to end it was going to look bad.

Obama tried to look strong while retreating, and ultimately ended up looking dopey. He should have torn a page out of the Ron Paul book and just been honest from the outset and said "this will never work, we just went in, we just come out." Instead, he tried to play it like he was accomplishing great things, and so he just looks weak as the pot boils over.

In the end, we're getting the Ron Paul foreign policy, just without the honesty.
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Old 06-13-2014, 06:36 PM   #247
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Would have loved to see Ron Paul as president. But people would rather vote for these rich a-holes that dont give a **** about them

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Old 06-13-2014, 07:36 PM   #248
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A little to this party, but has there been discussion of the 200 DOD contractors who have been abandoned and are fighting for their lives right now?
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:39 PM   #249
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http://www.special-ops.org/200-u-s-c...ihadists-iraq/
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:44 PM   #250
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A little to this party, but has there been discussion of the 200 DOD contractors who have been abandoned and are fighting for their lives right now?
That is what private security is for. It isn't like they woke one morning in Iraq and said where the **** is everybody.
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