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Old 05-27-2014, 12:34 PM   #76
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My grandpa spent some time at the VA before he died. They had terrible lemonade but a lot of board games.
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Old 05-27-2014, 12:35 PM   #77
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Gunns when the President says he is on it I would think I shouldn't have to come up with any ideas to fix it. I am just a peon voter. He said he would fix it. He then said it was a model for his new healthcare plan. You would think he thought it was working pretty well to do that.

They could start by being able to fire people who perform like crap but I heard the dems in the Senate say no friggin way to that. Just more in DC you keep job regardless of how you perform.

The problem with your thinking is that before when it was a Bush presidency no liberals wanted to say well it's partly our fault as well. Nope they blamed Bush for everything.

Reap what you sow dems. Just wait until repubs get Senate and they start doing the rule changes dems did on appointments. Let me put it this way, it ain't going to be pretty.
OMG! Did you just start watching politics in the past month? God forbid you've voted. Every damn person that has run for President since I can remember (which is back to Kennedy and Johnson) has made promises that sound so wonderful and created hope that something would finally happen only to have it totally ignored or a half hearted effort given. No I don't agree that Bush is at fault for this VA crap. But neither is Obama. Both just followed the status quo and nobody gives a **** in our government for our most important people. And like I said this has gone way back and is nothing new. I can recall several VA issues in the past and it's a big deal for a while and then we're back to crap.
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Old 05-27-2014, 01:06 PM   #78
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America has treated its vets like crap since after the Revolutionary War when Congress got together and decided it wouldn't pay soldiers the money it had promised them during the fighting.
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Old 05-27-2014, 01:28 PM   #79
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There were two bills. I don't know the name of them.

Here is the bill that was just defeated.

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-actio...-veterans-bill

Here is the bill the GOP defeated in 2012.

https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/09/20
From your link Commondreams...

"A large number of economists and independent analysts have confirmed that worker programs such as this would be a boon to the lagging economy though most urge initiatives on a much larger scale that would focus on putting the entire idle workforce, not just struggling veterans, back to work."

I must ask, how did the job creation work out when Obama threw billions of dollars on "Shovel ready jobs"? I would be concerned too.


"Jeff Sessions, the Senate Budget Committee ranking member, said he objected to the bill on the grounds it would increase the veterans affairs department budget and would blow though the spending cap lawmakers agreed last year....

Democrats argue the bills costs are already covered by plans to collect more than half a billion in unpaid taxes over the next five years, according to the Washington Examiner."

Collecting taxes is not a guarantee and that it would go to this program as we have many more programs that are or need to be paid by the government. 2nd, the $20 billion spent on VA increased the VA budget as Jeff Sessions was afraid it would do. While getting the VA to a more positive outlook, the money didn't seem to help with a glaring problem of death in these hospitals or at least care. $20 billion is a lot of money and should have been able to hire many more doctors/nurses for each hospital and get updated equipment. Was there some improvement? Maybe but that $ amount shows how bad either this administration is operating the VA or it has been a huge problem no matter who has been president.

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Old 05-27-2014, 08:58 PM   #80
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cutthemdown, do you have something to support your statements that Obama "calls out Bush for the performance of the VA" and/or that "Obama blames Bush"?
Here is an article with some Obama quotes on the subject when he was a Senator.

http://www.wnd.com/2014/05/obama-bri...-back-as-2005/
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Old 05-27-2014, 09:45 PM   #81
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VA needs to be disbanded and converted into a health guarantor instead of a provider.

As to the rest, modern progressives have a long and storied history of telling us how great VA Healthcare was. It can't all just get swept down the memory hole now.
I say provide vets with 100% subsidized private insurance (the "Platinum Plan") that they can spend at the VA or any hospital they want. Watch how fast the VA shapes up when they have to compete with other hospitals.

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Old 05-28-2014, 02:32 AM   #82
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Here is an article with some Obama quotes on the subject when he was a Senator.

http://www.wnd.com/2014/05/obama-bri...-back-as-2005/
This would explain your delusional posts. WND!? A ****ing birther site.lol
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Old 05-28-2014, 06:10 AM   #83
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Here is an article with some Obama quotes on the subject when he was a Senator.
Okay, so quotes from 9 years ago, well before he was POTUS, where he never directly mentions Bush. In other words, you don't really have anything to back up major claims in your post.
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:50 AM   #84
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"After seven years of an Administration that has stretched our military to the breaking point, ignored deplorable conditions at some VA hospitals, and neglected the planning and preparation necessary to care for our returning heroes, America's veterans deserve a President who will fight for them not just when it's easy or convenient, but every hour of every day for the next four years."
The Veterans are still deserving. And they're still waiting.
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:56 AM   #85
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Okay, so quotes from 9 years ago, well before he was POTUS, where he never directly mentions Bush. In other words, you don't really have anything to back up major claims in your post.
No I just threw one article out there showing he talked a good game on it as far back as being in the Senate.

He also has his minions right now blaming bush for it so acting like he isn't do that is a joke.
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:01 AM   #86
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No I just threw one article out there showing he talked a good game on it as far back as being in the Senate.

He also has his minions right now blaming bush for it so acting like he isn't do that is a joke.
It's crazy they even think for a second Obama didn't harp on this as a candidate. He sharply criticized virtually everything. And then got elected and did almost nothing.

He went from "Fightin' every day for veterans" to watching his second in command @ VA saying "Well, actually firing people for stashing dying vets in filing cabinets while they waste away might be a tad harsh."
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:17 AM   #87
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No I just threw one article out there showing he talked a good game on it as far back as being in the Senate.

He also has his minions right now blaming bush for it so acting like he isn't do that is a joke.
Your post clearly implied that President Obama directly and specifically criticized Bush. He did not, therefore your post was inaccurate and misleading.

Is Obama beyond criticism on this issue? No, of course not. But your criticism needs to be more reasonable than it has been. This is not a new issue nor an Obama issue. It's really just the hypocritical right wing faux outrage of the month. Y'all will move on to something else that you just discovered as an issue since Obama took office sooner or later.
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:20 AM   #88
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It's crazy they even think for a second Obama didn't harp on this as a candidate. He sharply criticized virtually everything. And then got elected and did almost nothing.
lol You're either very young or just recently started following politics. This is what every politician has done since the beginning of time. Doesn't excuse the practice, and doesn't excuse Obama on this issue. But the fact that y'all are so outraged about this is a little silly. This is SOP for politics in general, and D.C. in particular. Stop acting like y'all have discovered something. Such drama! Such outrage!
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:35 AM   #89
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lol You're either very young or just recently started following politics. This is what every politician has done since the beginning of time. Doesn't excuse the practice, and doesn't excuse Obama on this issue. But the fact that y'all are so outraged about this is a little silly. This is SOP for politics in general, and D.C. in particular. Stop acting like y'all have discovered something. Such drama! Such outrage!
I wasn't surprised by it at all. I was surprised by you holding out for "proof" of Obama doing something we all probably should've assumed he did, because it's been his #1 MO since he came to DC. And no, he's not unique in that respect. But the whole

Quote:
do you have something to support your statements that Obama "calls out Bush for the performance of the VA" and/or that "Obama blames Bush"?
shows who was really being (or maybe playing) naive.
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:48 AM   #90
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...who was really being (or maybe playing) naive.
Catching someone making misleading statements, and calling them on it, is being naive?
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:52 AM   #91
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Catching someone making misleading statements, and calling them on it, is being naive?
Uh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
2- Obama runs for President and calls out Bush for the performance of the VA.
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Originally Posted by TonyR View Post
cutthemdown, do you have something to support your statements that Obama "calls out Bush for the performance of the VA" and/or that "Obama blames Bush"?
Beav:

Quote:
"After seven years of an Administration that has stretched our military to the breaking point, ignored deplorable conditions at some VA hospitals, and neglected the planning and preparation necessary to care for our returning heroes, America's veterans deserve a President who will fight for them not just when it's easy or convenient, but every hour of every day for the next four years."
Senator Obama, while running for President in 2007.

The problem is you were demanding proof of something that was easily verifiable. Either you just couldn't believe Obama would say something like that (naive), or you were playing games with Cut, for reasons unknown.

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Old 05-28-2014, 09:29 AM   #92
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The problem is you were demanding proof of something that was easily verifiable. Either you just couldn't believe Obama would say something like that (naive), or you were playing games with Cut, for reasons unknown.
First, I think I made it clear in subsequent posts that I was referring to President Obama, not Senator Obama.
Second, I wasn't demanding anything. I was just asking if he had any.
Third, if that quote you just presented was in the source cut linked then I missed it. Maybe it was, but for some reason I can't get that link to work right now.

But my larger point is that y'all are tiresome with your constant and hypocritical gotchas and smoking guns and faux outrage since Obama's candidacy all the way through to now. It started with ZOMG!1! Bill Ayers and ZOMG!1! Rev. Wright and ZOMG!1! Kenya and ZOMG!1! birth certificate and it hasn't stopped. Every week or month it's something new, and this from people who were largely silent while the previous administration, among other things, duped the country into massive conflicts in the middle east, bungled an occupation and "nation build" about as bad as possible, and set up and legalized a torture regime that would make the Khmer Rouge and Gestapo proud. At some point you need to step back, with a little perspective, and realize how silly you look.
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Old 05-28-2014, 10:00 AM   #93
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First, I think I made it clear in subsequent posts that I was referring to President Obama, not Senator Obama.
Sorry, that's not how it went down.

Cut said "Candidate Obama dug on Bush about the VA"

You said "Got any proof of that?"

Cut and I post proof.

Then you moved to, "Well that was just while he was a Candidate" whilst having the nuts to still accuse Cut of making misleading accusations even while you fall back to agreement with his original statement.

Quote:
Second, I wasn't demanding anything. I was just asking if he had any.
Third, if that quote you just presented was in the source cut linked then I missed it. Maybe it was, but for some reason I can't get that link to work right now.
I got the quote elsewhere. I don't think it was in his link. But it matters little. You'd have to be a Real True Believer to be even mildly shocked that Obama said things along those lines once or twice (or a dozen) times during his first campaign. Regardless, you called Cut for saying something 'misleading' when it was 100% true, and you're trying to paper it over by attaching conditions to the argument that run in direct contradiction to the original premise.

Quote:
But my larger point is that y'all are tiresome with your constant and hypocritical gotchas and smoking guns and faux outrage since Obama's candidacy all the way through to now. It started with ZOMG!1! Bill Ayers and ZOMG!1! Rev. Wright and ZOMG!1! Kenya and ZOMG!1! birth certificate and it hasn't stopped. Every week or month it's something new, and this from people who were largely silent while the previous administration, among other things, duped the country into massive conflicts in the middle east, bungled an occupation and "nation build" about as bad as possible, and set up and legalized a torture regime that would make the Khmer Rouge and Gestapo proud. At some point you need to step back, with a little perspective, and realize how silly you look.
Put any man in charge and there will be an endless string of conspiracy theories to deal with. Some more credible than others. And whether you like that guy or not. Kinda surprised you're willing to go Full Godwin over it.
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Old 05-28-2014, 11:21 AM   #94
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Sorry, that's not how it went down.
Not when you focus on item 2 from cut's post, and ignore item 9, which his what you're doing. He never suppported item 2 (you did later), neither of you have supported item 9.

I'm not "surprised" at anything Senator/candidate Obama may have said, but I would be a little surprised if President Obama directly/specifically blamed Bush. I just asked for proof. cut failed to provide it.
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Old 05-28-2014, 11:32 AM   #95
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OMG TonyR. He is running for president and basically states Bush has run down the VA. Do you really think he would specify that it started with Clinton? He said it and who cares if it is when he is running for president or he is already the president. You want to excuse all politicians of saying something as a promise and not doing it. Obama said a ton of stuff that now he might realize it isn't as easy as he stated he could do as a "candidate". I don't care if "all politicians do it as their M.O." He did it and things seem to not have changed much. Not sure why you would actually continue the argument. Seems on this issue he has ****ed up. I wouldn't be fighting his battles right now on this subject.
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Old 05-28-2014, 02:29 PM   #96
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Not when you focus on item 2 from cut's post, and ignore item 9, which his what you're doing. He never suppported item 2 (you did later), neither of you have supported item 9.

I'm not "surprised" at anything Senator/candidate Obama may have said, but I would be a little surprised if President Obama directly/specifically blamed Bush. I just asked for proof. cut failed to provide it.
I focused on item 2 because that's what you were talking about. You literally quoted from it.

As for 9, Carney/Pelosi, et al have been happily playing up Iraq/Afghanistan as the big cause of all this. Which is ludicrous on its face. VA's caseload didn't go up 40% because of the middle east (like their budget did)

It's the Greatest Generation through Vietnam Baby Boomers that are bringing the real pressure. But they don't like to talk about that because it's bad politics to blame stuff on dead presidents while there's a perfectly good Bush available somewhere. Plus it's hard to plead ignorance about a problem we all knew was coming for decades.

But my favorite part is the part where we're told it's illegitimate to criticize the current president in exactly the same way he once criticized his predecessor.

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Old 05-28-2014, 04:25 PM   #97
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A couple years ago Socialist Progressives all pointed to the VA as the bastion of single-payer that they wished the ENTIRE US Healthcare system would turn into.
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Old 05-28-2014, 04:34 PM   #98
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I say provide vets with 100% subsidized private insurance (the "Platinum Plan") that they can spend at the VA or any hospital they want. Watch how fast the VA shapes up when they have to compete with other hospitals.
Exactly. And that is the problem with government programs. Just like Communism, good in theory, bad in practice. Competition is key.
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Old 05-28-2014, 09:14 PM   #99
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Once again our govt proves that money does not equal results in DC. Obama after vowing during his run for President that under an Obama admin vets would not be forgotten or not cared for like under Bush.

He comes into office and threw 20 billion extra at them to make it so. Then I guess he never gave it a thought again as the money did nothing to fix the problems.

Just another example of how liberals think just spending more money fixes everything.
At least he didn't start a war that costs trillions of dollars, thousdands of lives and broken homes, and the reason those vets have to be treated in the first place. Wake the **** up dude. Really? You guys start wars that cost trillions and you complain that we want to spend a few million trying to help these vets. If you didn't start these needless wars, we wouldn't need to treat a million vets in the 1st place. Pull the cover off your face already.
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Old 05-28-2014, 11:38 PM   #100
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1. Right now there are more troops in Afghanistan than when Bush left office.

2. The end of combat operations in Iraq was scheduled by Bush. Obama simply shifted all of those troops to the "surge" in Afghanistan.

3. Let's list the other clandestine wars that the Obama administration has gotten the US involved in:
a. Somalia - funding Ethiopia to deliberately destabilize any muslim government that takes power, even though 98% of Somalia is muslim
b. Yemen - clandestine attacks against Yemeni citizens
c. Pakistan - drone bombing civilians
d. Egypt - directly promoted uprising of muslim brotherhood, destabilizing the country
e. Libya - funded and gave weapons to rebels to kill Khaddafi. The country is a mess.
f. Syria - directly funding and supporting rebels in the Syrian civil war
g. Iran - massively screwing up the entire diplomatic process with empty threats, while not succeeding in preventing Libya from seeking nuclear weapons.
h. Isreal - supporting Isreal's killing and re-locating of Palestinian's
I. Ukraine - directly funded and supported Ukrainian's uprising, which led to Putin taking over half the country.
j. Iraq - Obama would still keep troops there, but the Iraqi's voted against it. The country is a complete loss.
k. Afghanistan - escalation of the Afghanistan War leading to thousands of casualties. By the end of his term Obama will be in Afghanistan longer than Bush was.
l. South Sudan - Unauthorized sending of military to South Sudan amid the recent outbreak in civil war.
m. Uganda - Obama sent at least 100 special forces to Uganda once the liberal "Kony 2012" campaign began on the internet. Kony was never caught.
n. Nigeria - Now the Obama administration wants to get involved in Nigeria for the "#bringourgirlshome" campaign waged by liberals (because they really think anybody gives a crap what they think), while the Nigerian warlord laughs.

Was Bush bad? Yes. Bush was the 2nd worst President in American history. Obama is much worse. The Obama administration has done so much more damage on a global scale, including their involvement in the escalation of at least 14 (listed above) around the world leading to untold millions of deaths.
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