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Old 03-29-2014, 02:32 PM   #176
SonOfLe-loLang
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Don't take it as an affront to you Le-lo. I am only exposed to the side of Socialism that is the US Progressive Socialists, the history I read about, and the continuous onslaught against the US Constitution that the current administration has wraught. Other than the personal attacks (which I don't really blame you for), it's been a good conversation. I highly respect your opinion, even if I do disagree. Your original point that the Norwegian model isn't "evil" per se is acknowledged. I would agree that their intentions are not evil. The outcomes, I would argue are far different, but I do see your point of view.

The process has been a eye-opening path of discovery, that I previously did not know about the Nordic model, so thanks. Always glad to learn.
Words are appreciated. Apologies for getting heated.
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Old 03-29-2014, 02:46 PM   #177
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This has been known for years. If you account for pollusion caused during production a Toyota Prius does about the same environmental damage over its entire lifetime as a supercharged Range Rover and several fold more than a Merc S-class with a V6 diesel and 250 BHP.
Really? That's counting gasses emitted into the air over the life of the vehicle? That's hard to believe.
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Old 03-29-2014, 03:38 PM   #178
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Really? That's counting gasses emitted into the air over the life of the vehicle? That's hard to believe.
You clearly haven't seen how lithium is mined, refined and transported. That creates a LOT of toxic waste, and the fact that lithium batteries are tricky to dispose of and currently the capacity for full recycling just doesn't exist.
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Old 03-30-2014, 05:37 PM   #179
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You clearly haven't seen how lithium is mined, refined and transported. That creates a LOT of toxic waste, and the fact that lithium batteries are tricky to dispose of and currently the capacity for full recycling just doesn't exist.
Actually, "mining" lithium is relatively clean, and not energy intensive. Lithium is "mined" the same way table salt is "mined" from sea water. You take salt water (brine) from underwater water sources where a significant portion of that salt is lithium-chloride, then pump it into an evaporation pond. Let the sun evaporate the water, then harvest the lithium-chloride (along with other useful salts and minerals like boron, potassium-chloride and sodium chloride).

Lithium-chloride is a stable form of lithium, and while toxic isn't particularly bad (it was once used as a replacement for sodium-chloride as a food seasoning until the long term toxic effects were discovered).

You CAN produce lithium from hard rock mining operations, which is indeed very, very nasty business (on par with gold, silver and other precious metal mining) but that isn't economically viable compared to the brine/evaporation method.

That lithium chloride can then be refined into metallic lithium + chlorine using electrolysis and potassium chloride. Chlorine is nasty stuff, but is a highly usable end product in an of itself (bleach, disinfecting, paper production, etc.).

At that point is is a bit dangerous because, like its close chemical analogues potassium and sodium, it is highly reactive with water, but that's manageable too. Not any more problematic than the transportation of other highly flammable materials, like oil and gasoline. It's pretty highly toxic too, but that's also manageable and overall poses less hazard than oil and gasoline, a toxic sludge which our society is literally covered in -- including the inside of your home.

As far as recycling, the reason it's not (currently) recycled is for economic reasons, not technical. In any given LI-ION battery, the cost to produce the lithium for that battery is about 3% of the overall cost of the battery.

Last edited by Fedaykin; 03-30-2014 at 05:42 PM..
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Old 03-30-2014, 05:56 PM   #180
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Looks like we might be able to save the planet after all.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogo...ty-industries/
I don't know why I haven't seen this post before. But I agree. Tesla rocks.

If only I had the money to invest in individual securities, I would so be on this one. (Right now the only investments I have are Vail Resorts (MTN) and T.Rowe Price mutual).
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Old 03-30-2014, 06:49 PM   #181
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Yeah but i think electric cars and motors use a lot of Neodymium which you do have to mine. I don't know the numbers though. I know Prius uses something called lanthanium? something like that. Its a hard rock element but we do have a lot of it.

I doubt the numbers can be crunched on how much co2 the mining of the metals will cost. I'm sure electric cars will still come out ahead co2 wise but will it be enough to dent the overall co2 level a different story.

But my house next a to a freeway, electric cars would be quiet lol.
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Old 03-30-2014, 07:05 PM   #182
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Yeah but i think electric cars and motors use a lot of Neodymium which you do have to mine. I don't know the numbers though. I know Prius uses something called lanthanium? something like that. Its a hard rock element but we do have a lot of it.

I doubt the numbers can be crunched on how much co2 the mining of the metals will cost. I'm sure electric cars will still come out ahead co2 wise but will it be enough to dent the overall co2 level a different story.

But my house next a to a freeway, electric cars would be quiet lol.
There are lots of components to a typical car battery, several of which are difficult, energy expensive and dangerous to mine (Cobalt is a biggie). Thing is, those that are energy intensive to produce are always the most expensive components, and thus the ones that can and will be recycled economically. It's why lithium isn't currently recycled. It's cheaper to source "new" lithium. It's cheaper "new" because it's not difficult or energy intensive to produce.
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Old 03-30-2014, 07:48 PM   #183
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It's not just the batteries though. I think the electric engines use a lot of rare earths also.

We have some big deposits in CA/NV area and soon we will be competing with China. Hopefully that lowers some of the costs because right now a lot of the electric stuff has huge govt subsidies and rebates. Eventually those will go away.
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Old 03-30-2014, 08:39 PM   #184
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It's not just the batteries though. I think the electric engines use a lot of rare earths also.

We have some big deposits in CA/NV area and soon we will be competing with China. Hopefully that lowers some of the costs because right now a lot of the electric stuff has huge govt subsidies and rebates. Eventually those will go away.
China controls 85% of the rare earth market. Coincidence. ..Afghanistan has a large deposit.
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Old 03-30-2014, 08:45 PM   #185
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you chumps completely miss the point and turn this into some douche political debate... feels like cnbc vs. fox news ITT and both sides completely fial!
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Old 03-30-2014, 09:34 PM   #186
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It's not just the batteries though. I think the electric engines use a lot of rare earths also.
Yes, the permanent magnets.
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Old 03-30-2014, 11:34 PM   #187
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It's not just the batteries though. I think the electric engines use a lot of rare earths also.
Which aren't actually 'rare' (they are called 'rare' because they don't tend to accumulate in concentrated pockets as much as other minerals), and are recyclable.

ICEs also require (real) rare elements, such as platinum, rhodium and palladium. Most of which is sourced from Russia.

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We have some big deposits in CA/NV area and soon we will be competing with China.
... oh look, new economic opportunity due to.. *gasp* demand!

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Hopefully that lowers some of the costs because right now a lot of the electric stuff has huge govt subsidies and rebates. Eventually those will go away.
That's the point of the Gigafactory -- reduce the cost of the vehicle. One of the biggest problems with EV cost is no economy of scale (15.6 million ICEs were produced last year, as apposed to 0.1 million EV).

The claim is Tesla can reduce their battery cost by 1/3, just from increased scale of production. Of course, that economy of scale isn't just for the battery, but all the other components. More units = less cost per unit. The current bottleneck is battery supply though.
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:53 AM   #188
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Actually, "mining" lithium is relatively clean, and not energy intensive. Lithium is "mined" the same way table salt is "mined" from sea water. You take salt water (brine) from underwater water sources where a significant portion of that salt is lithium-chloride, then pump it into an evaporation pond. Let the sun evaporate the water, then harvest the lithium-chloride (along with other useful salts and minerals like boron, potassium-chloride and sodium chloride).

Lithium-chloride is a stable form of lithium, and while toxic isn't particularly bad (it was once used as a replacement for sodium-chloride as a food seasoning until the long term toxic effects were discovered).

You CAN produce lithium from hard rock mining operations, which is indeed very, very nasty business (on par with gold, silver and other precious metal mining) but that isn't economically viable compared to the brine/evaporation method.

That lithium chloride can then be refined into metallic lithium + chlorine using electrolysis and potassium chloride. Chlorine is nasty stuff, but is a highly usable end product in an of itself (bleach, disinfecting, paper production, etc.).

At that point is is a bit dangerous because, like its close chemical analogues potassium and sodium, it is highly reactive with water, but that's manageable too. Not any more problematic than the transportation of other highly flammable materials, like oil and gasoline. It's pretty highly toxic too, but that's also manageable and overall poses less hazard than oil and gasoline, a toxic sludge which our society is literally covered in -- including the inside of your home.

As far as recycling, the reason it's not (currently) recycled is for economic reasons, not technical. In any given LI-ION battery, the cost to produce the lithium for that battery is about 3% of the overall cost of the battery.
This is true, but a lot of the lithium specifically used for the Prius batteries was rock mined in Canada for a long time. I am not sure if they have switched to other suppliers by now that the prices have shot up and brine mining has become cost effective.
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Old 03-31-2014, 01:19 AM   #189
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This is true, but a lot of the lithium specifically used for the Prius batteries was rock mined in Canada for a long time. I am not sure if they have switched to other suppliers by now that the prices have shot up and brine mining has become cost effective.
Brine mining has always been more cost effective. You can't get much cheaper than pumping water into a pond and letting it evaporate in the sun. Extracting Lithium salts from hard rock is a lot more expensive.


And, a Prius line has only used a LI-ION since 2012 (starting with the plug in hybrid variety)... Previous to that it used a small NiMH battery. Perhaps you are thinking the rare earth's used?
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Old 03-31-2014, 02:05 AM   #190
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Which aren't actually 'rare' (they are called 'rare' because they don't tend to accumulate in concentrated pockets as much as other minerals), and are recyclable.

ICEs also require (real) rare elements, such as platinum, rhodium and palladium. Most of which is sourced from Russia.



... oh look, new economic opportunity due to.. *gasp* demand!



That's the point of the Gigafactory -- reduce the cost of the vehicle. One of the biggest problems with EV cost is no economy of scale (15.6 million ICEs were produced last year, as apposed to 0.1 million EV).

The claim is Tesla can reduce their battery cost by 1/3, just from increased scale of production. Of course, that economy of scale isn't just for the battery, but all the other components. More units = less cost per unit. The current bottleneck is battery supply though.
Dude opening that mine has been a cluster**** of liberal BS slowing it down.
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Old 03-31-2014, 07:29 AM   #191
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I don't know why I haven't seen this post before. But I agree. Tesla rocks.

If only I had the money to invest in individual securities, I would so be on this one. (Right now the only investments I have are Vail Resorts (MTN) and T.Rowe Price mutual).
If climate change keeps proceeding you might want to divest yourself of stocks that depend on snowfall to be profitable.
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Old 03-31-2014, 08:37 AM   #192
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China controls 85% of the rare earth market. Coincidence. ..Afghanistan has a large deposit.
Perhaps I'm mistaken but didn't we find a giant depository in one of the Dakotas several years ago?
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