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Old 02-10-2014, 04:50 PM   #151
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Bethea played FS until the purge in Indy and regime change. He also has 14 career Ints.

All three are scheme versatile and can play either safety position. They all are more physical than Dream and play with an edge. Jenkins hasn't lived up to his potential and Mitchell has shown promise when given his opportunity. A culture change for one and opportunity for another could be what they need.
The whole needing a culture change or he might live up to his potential here is why the secondary is a mess now. We either need to sign a top tier guy or draft one.
What Bethea is now is what concerns me, not what he was before a better defensive coach came in. There is a reason why he was moved.

But back to the subject of a pass rusher.
We need someone who can line up and get us 8-9 sacks opposite of Von.
We already have guys who can anchor the run.
I can live with a rookie being somewhat limited in the run game.
Pass rushers get overpaid in FA. So unless you see us forking over a hefty bonus for Johnson I don't see us getting a key guy short of Phillips 2.0 occurring.
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Old 02-10-2014, 05:31 PM   #152
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Moore was average before injury, we don't know what he's going to be post injury.

There's only 1 stud FS (Byrd) and a few stud SS (Ward, Whitner), I don't see any of these players not being retained by their own teams. If we grab a free agent safety, it's going to be a 2nd tier safety.

You have a rookie DE in Smith already, I would prefer someone more proven. We aren't getting Johnson, besides his production really dropped in 13. If we spend the money it would obviously be Hardy we should pursue.

I see some other options out there, and there could be plenty of cuts coming!
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Old 02-10-2014, 05:40 PM   #153
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The Broncos could always find a spot for Christian Jones if they want a playmaker. He is athletic enough to play all spots and has a great skillset. Frame to get bigger too. Dallas apparently loves him, but apparently he has major character flags that they may not want to risk on, so I doubt we would gamble. At the end of round two go for it.
He seems like an WLB to me, and we have an excellent one in Trevathan.
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:44 AM   #154
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The whole needing a culture change or he might live up to his potential here is why the secondary is a mess now. We either need to sign a top tier guy or draft one.
What Bethea is now is what concerns me, not what he was before a better defensive coach came in. There is a reason why he was moved.

But back to the subject of a pass rusher.
We need someone who can line up and get us 8-9 sacks opposite of Von.
We already have guys who can anchor the run.
I can live with a rookie being somewhat limited in the run game.
Pass rushers get overpaid in FA. So unless you see us forking over a hefty bonus for Johnson I don't see us getting a key guy short of Phillips 2.0 occurring.

What about the Quanterus dude? What can we expect from him?
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:50 AM   #155
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What about the Quanterus dude? What can we expect from him?
I don't know, I thought he would be close enough last season to play and come on as the season progressed and finish with 6-7 sacks and improving play.
Similar to how we have seen Jackson progress as he has gotten more reps.

I like him a lot but I want to add another DE early who can rush the passer.
A good majority of the guys we have now are mostly complete(in terms of overall play) DE's but they lack pure pass rushing skills.
We need someone who can eventually net us 11-13 sacks beside Von so that our D doesn't have to rely on Von to get a ton of pressure.

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Moore was average before injury, we don't know what he's going to be post injury.

There's only 1 stud FS (Byrd) and a few stud SS (Ward, Whitner), I don't see any of these players not being retained by their own teams. If we grab a free agent safety, it's going to be a 2nd tier safety.

You have a rookie DE in Smith already, I would prefer someone more proven. We aren't getting Johnson, besides his production really dropped in 13. If we spend the money it would obviously be Hardy we should pursue.

I see some other options out there, and there could be plenty of cuts coming!
And again, if we are dipping into FA for a S it needs to be for a top tier guy.
We already dipped into the second tier FA with Adams. We do not need more of those guys. We need a stud in FA or just rely on the draft. Unfortunately for us Carter had a bad knee injury as he was very promising before then.

I was using Johnson as a simple example of a name guy who even with a drop in production will get paid.
Hardy is not going to happen. He turned down a 4 year 32 mil deal before the 15 sack season. Back to back seasons of 11+ sacks practically guarantees he will get 10 mil on the open market.
That is why I would once again prefer to address this need in the draft.
Yes cuts will happen, but even then those players are likely to be out of our price range assuming we restructure and not cut Welker and Bailey, re-sign DRC and replace Decker cheaply.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:05 PM   #156
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I'm not expecting any big Free Agent moves. We just have too many core guys to re-sign/extend. And if we don't re-sign the core guys or we cut them, then we just have to find a guy to fill that new gap.

If we cut Champ or don't re-sign DRC, we're going to drop some money on a veteran CB for sure. But if we do keep Champ or re-sign DRC, it's basically the same thing. Regardless, I feel like we're essentially staying status quo to some degree at CB in terms of expense.

Decker and Beadles were dirt cheap on their rookie deals, so not re-signing them doesn't save us money compared to this year, it just doesn't blow our entire existing cap space on retaining them. Plus, if they walk, good chance we collect some Compensatory selections in the 2015 draft.

If we keep Phillips, he's going to get a raise to some extent. I just don't see us bringing in a top tier DE.

I think this is going to be a boring Free Agency period for us. We'll sign some depth guys and maybe take a flier on someone like Kenny Britt, but I don't see any expensive deals coming for new players.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:06 PM   #157
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Bethea is a SS, he does not intercept the ball, he tackles well and helps stuff the run. How is a SS a upgrade to Moore when they don't play the same position?

Jenkins is on one of the poorer secondaries in the NFL and they still think he underperformed. The knock on him is that he doesn't make plays and that's why the saints want to replace him with a better player to pair with Vaccaro.

Mitchell hits hard? Hoorah, we need that in a SS, not a FS.
You are dead wrong on Bethea. He has been a FS his whole career in INDY and really they played Landry at SS more often than not this year. Bethea has been a pro bowler and the lack of a suitable SS or Nickel CB means he does not get as thrown at deep. Plus, he a is a very solid angle tackler unlike DEN's group.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:13 PM   #158
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I'm not expecting any big Free Agent moves. We just have too many core guys to re-sign/extend. And if we don't re-sign the core guys or we cut them, then we just have to find a guy to fill that new gap.

If we cut Champ or don't re-sign DRC, we're going to drop some money on a veteran CB for sure. But if we do keep Champ or re-sign DRC, it's basically the same thing. Regardless, I feel like we're essentially staying status quo to some degree at CB in terms of expense.

Decker and Beadles were dirt cheap on their rookie deals, so not re-signing them doesn't save us money compared to this year, it just doesn't blow our entire existing cap space on retaining them. Plus, if they walk, good chance we collect some Compensatory selections in the 2015 draft.

If we keep Phillips, he's going to get a raise to some extent. I just don't see us bringing in a top tier DE.

I think this is going to be a boring Free Agency period for us. We'll sign some depth guys and maybe take a flier on someone like Kenny Britt, but I don't see any expensive deals coming for new players.
Wasn't the exact same said last year by the media then all of a sudden we land Vasquez, DRC, Welker, Knighton and then Phillips. One of the best FA hauls in a long time. All 5 were signed for under $13.4m in cap money last year.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:24 PM   #159
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You are dead wrong on Bethea. He has been a FS his whole career in INDY and really they played Landry at SS more often than not this year. Bethea has been a pro bowler and the lack of a suitable SS or Nickel CB means he does not get as thrown at deep. Plus, he a is a very solid angle tackler unlike DEN's group.
I already called this!
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:41 PM   #160
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Wasn't the exact same said last year by the media then all of a sudden we land Vasquez, DRC, Welker, Knighton and then Phillips. One of the best FA hauls in a long time. All 5 were signed for under $13.4m in cap money last year.
No idea. Vazquez was our big signing. The rest were mid-range guys off the trash heap. Well, and then Welker, I guess he was a big signing too.

I'm kind of expecting the same thing minus a Vasquez type signing. Elway and Co. have shown a great hand at finding reasonably priced FA's so, I think we'll get some talent on the cheap, but even moreso than last year, I think we have some huge contracts coming due that will require some serious investments. We are good at playing games with the cap though, so who knows.

I would definitely prefer an entertaining offseason though.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:58 PM   #161
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I didn't like all the game clips I could find of him coming out of college, and I haven't seen any flashes of greatness in preseason or in his time spelling Manning in real games. What are you basing your optimism off of?
So, basically you're saying you know basically nothing?

I watched most of his games at ASU. He should be a good QB for us.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:45 PM   #162
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You are dead wrong on Bethea. He has been a FS his whole career in INDY and really they played Landry at SS more often than not this year. Bethea has been a pro bowler and the lack of a suitable SS or Nickel CB means he does not get as thrown at deep. Plus, he a is a very solid angle tackler unlike DEN's group.
Once again, I know what position he played in the past.
But there was a reason he got moved. Granted the responsibilities change in a 3-4 like the Colts use versus a Tampa 2 or normal 4-3.
I don't see Bethea as a guy who is going to make a significant change to this defense to warrant passing over a guy in the draft.
Only two safeties in this FA class that we should look at are Byrd and Ward.
Everyone else is Mike Adams all over again. Sign top tier or draft a guy.
S nor CB is a position where we need to try to go bargain basement shopping.

This team is set up to win now so we either need to sign a top guy at the position or draft a guy and have him be cost controlled for a few years.
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Old 02-12-2014, 05:58 AM   #163
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Why is everyone else Mike Adams all over again?
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Old 02-12-2014, 06:22 AM   #164
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Once again, I know what position he played in the past.
But there was a reason he got moved. Granted the responsibilities change in a 3-4 like the Colts use versus a Tampa 2 or normal 4-3.
I don't see Bethea as a guy who is going to make a significant change to this defense to warrant passing over a guy in the draft.
Only two safeties in this FA class that we should look at are Byrd and Ward.
Everyone else is Mike Adams all over again. Sign top tier or draft a guy.
S nor CB is a position where we need to try to go bargain basement shopping.

This team is set up to win now so we either need to sign a top guy at the position or draft a guy and have him be cost controlled for a few years.
He really did not get moved, they brought in Laron Landry. And they played a situational safety system instead of FS and SS last year. Don't believe me, go watch the tape. I have seen him play every game the last 10 years living in INDY....

My problem is you are severely underrating him since he is not Byrd or Ward who are younger. Bethea has 10 years of solid tape and he is also a damn good leader, something that Safety position needs.

However, most of this is moot since he will likely resign with INDY since they have more money and Pagano loves him.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:46 AM   #165
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I expect Denver to be very active again in FA. Mannings potentially in his final year, time to go full board at the SB again.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:36 AM   #166
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Why is everyone else Mike Adams all over again?
They are tier B free agents who either played well in a contract year, are on the decline and we would be paying more for what they were rather than what they still are or have similar issues to Moore in that they have a glaring issue but they would be new to the team so they must be better in some fans minds.

I don't want a new name and same ****. I want a legit upgrade.
Adams was the same thing you talked about Mitchell and others being.
Solid vet, flexible player who could switch between safety spot, he supposedly better at things than our current crop was at the time.

This is no different than when people wanted us to get X CB because he was better than Walls,Herdon,Foxworth,Paymah,Choate,Carter & etc.
The S position is not going to get fixed bargain basement hunting. We have been through this song and dance before for years with Shanahan and defense and now even with Elway in his early stages with DT and MLB.
It only gets fixed through the draft or signing a top tier FA.
Had we not signed Manning do you really feel that Flynn,Kolb,Jackson,Freeman,Smith or some lower tier QB would have been sufficient enough to not only kill Tebowmania but also get us to a point where we had a legit franchise QB?

I don't and that is the same way I feel about safety. I am not interested in seeing them cheaply plug a hole. I want them to legitimately fix it so that we can move on to address other needs.

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He really did not get moved, they brought in Laron Landry. And they played a situational safety system instead of FS and SS last year. Don't believe me, go watch the tape. I have seen him play every game the last 10 years living in INDY....

My problem is you are severely underrating him since he is not Byrd or Ward who are younger. Bethea has 10 years of solid tape and he is also a damn good leader, something that Safety position needs.

However, most of this is moot since he will likely resign with INDY since they have more money and Pagano loves him.
I have watched Indy for as long as Peyton had been the QB. I have watched their offense, defense and special teams over and over again.
He is a solid player, and has been a pro bowler in the past.
But you do not bring in Laron Landry and move Beathea even for situational purposes if he's so good.
Landry is not that great of a player that you move someone else to fit him in.
It's one thing to move a DE to OLB because you play a 3-4, moving a FS to SS for Laron Landry? There is a reason. He fits better at SS in the current stage of his career.
I am not saying Bethea is a crap player. I am saying that if he is the landmark addition at S that we will have the same set of issues next season that we do now.
He is not a guy who will be a game changer for us.
Much like I do not feel that if we signed a FA MLB other than Dansby or Beason would be a game changer for us. Now a Darryl Smith could be a very solid signing, maybe even a Donald Butler.
But as I responded to BMORE. I want a legit upgrade and fix. A no question about it so long as he stays healthy type of move.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:19 PM   #167
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I respect what your saying about fixing the problem long term and not a stop gap solution. I don't agree that a rookie necessarily does that, or that we still can't draft a rookie to develop.

Bethea would instantly upgrade FS or SS. While he's not the long term solution, he would still be better than anything we have or any rookie year one. The veteran stop gap, allows the rookie time to develop, especially in win now mode.

Ward and Byrd are your best two at FS and SS not only because of their skill, but mostly due to age and their best years should be ahead. But that doesn't mean we can't find an impact player who's not named Ward or Byrd.

Same applies to MLB, interestingly Dansby is a stop gap solution your cool with and he's getting old!
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:50 PM   #168
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Same applies to MLB, interestingly Dansby is a stop gap solution your cool with and he's getting old!
Considering that the broncos signed keith brooking (age 37) and Paris Lenon (Age 36) as free agents in each of the past two seasons, dansby looks like a spry spring chicken. It seems as though the staff values a veteran presence in the middle of the defense, so I don't know why they wouldn't take a look at signing dansby to a 2-3 year deal.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:56 PM   #169
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Considering that the broncos signed keith brooking (age 37) and Paris Lenon (Age 36) as free agents in each of the past two seasons, dansby looks like a spry spring chicken. It seems as though the staff values a veteran presence in the middle of the defense, so I don't know why they wouldn't take a look at signing dansby to a 2-3 year deal.
Don't put me in the camp against Dansby, I started a sign Dansby thread and said that in almost every post. I'm trying to convey that it comes off that a player is a stop gap based on Lestat's perception and preference.

He's saying Bethea wouldn't upgrade the position much, which is his opinion, because he's not the young marque stud at the position. Yet he's ok with Dansby when there are younger good names available at the position that wouldn't be just a short term stop gap. He's doing it based on his preference.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:16 PM   #170
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Don't put me in the camp against Dansby, I started a sign Dansby thread and said that in almost every post. I'm trying to convey that it comes off that a player is a stop gap based on Lestat's perception and preference.

He's saying Bethea wouldn't upgrade the position much, which is his opinion, because he's not the young marque stud at the position. Yet he's ok with Dansby when there are younger good names available at the position that wouldn't be just a short term stop gap. He's doing it based on his preference.
I don't really think that much of Bethea.

I'm not sure what your opinion of PFF is (and it seems like most dislike PFF here), but they gave him a grade this past season of -2.9. This puts him at 37th in terms of 2014 Free agent safeties. I know their grades aren't perfect, but aside from offensive skill position grades I tend to agree with their assessments (And they have Byrd and Ward graded most highly in per-snap rating).

I also think, as med mentioned, that the colts will resign bethea and the broncos would have to overpay (somewhere around 4-5m/year) to sign him. Yes I think he possibly provides more playmaking potential than Moore, but not for the price and not while rahim is still on his rookie deal. I also think drafting a SS (pryor, dixon) would provide better production and value as well.

I think almost everyone here agrees that dansby would be a great signing. It will be interesting to see what the cardinals decide to do with him, and whether he'd even want to leave arizona again. By the way, Dansby has the highest grade of all free agent linebackers (not only middle backers) according to PFF, with a grade of +13.4.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:46 PM   #171
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I'm not sure what your opinion of PFF is (and it seems like most dislike PFF here), but they gave him a grade this past season of -2.9.
which means what? unless the evaluators understand the scheme and the roles for each individual player (this is especially true on defense) on every single down then it's a pretty empty analysis imo.
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Old 02-12-2014, 02:00 PM   #172
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which means what? unless the evaluators understand the scheme and the roles for each individual player (this is especially true on defense) on every single down then it's a pretty empty analysis imo.
It's not hard to tell whether a linebacker is being disruptive or is being taken out of the play. I agreed with almost all of their takes on the broncos defense and offensive line this year. They do a good job in that regard, and the guys that work there have done a lot of film work and know what they're doing. If their stuff was crap then I don't think half the teams in the NFL would be paying to use their statistics.

Regardless, it's just a metric by which to compare players. Since I agree with their grading of Woodyard, Lenon, Moore, Ihenacho, and Adams, week by week, I tend to trust their sentiments about other safeties and linebackers in the league.
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Old 02-12-2014, 02:02 PM   #173
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All Radio signs here in Phoenix point to Dansby being Re-signed here soon.
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Old 02-12-2014, 02:17 PM   #174
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All Radio signs here in Phoenix point to Dansby being Re-signed here soon.
I saw that he said he thinks he'll be a cardinal next season. Wonder if the broncos will take a look at spikes. He's a good two down backer.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:10 PM   #175
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Broncos big FA signing this year will be none other than Jared Allen, take a note of that now.
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