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View Poll Results: why has our pass D sucked?
missing Von, Champ, Ayers, and/or WW 49 73.13%
schematic difference 6 8.96%
small sample size - we aren't that bad, just got torched once 10 14.93%
dominant offense forces oppostion to throw 28 41.79%
other - describe in comment 8 11.94%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-17-2013, 11:26 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by enjolras View Post
We've given up an astounding 35 passing plays of 20+ yards. That's #32 in the league. However, we've only give up 4 passing plays of 40+ yards.

The performance of the defense in terms of defending the pass, thus far, has been absolutely atrocious. Literally worst in the league.

Also, lets put the myth to bed that this team is facing many more passing attempts. Both the Vikings (42.6) and Eagles (43.8) defenses have seen more pass attempts per game than the Broncos (41.8) have.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...ualified=false

I do think Von will help with this quite a bit. Although I'm absolutely worried about DRC. Watching the coaches film on rewind, it appears to me that he's completely lost when it comes to understanding where he's supposed to be. I've found 5 clear plays (in the last two games) where he failed to cover the guy he was supposed to (all resulted in 20+ yard gains). I found several others that I suspect he blew the coverage, but it's hard to know for sure.

Hopefully by the time the playoffs roll around he will have become more comfortable in the defense (or the coaching staff will have learned how to protect him a bit more) and the addition of Von, Champ, and a healthy Woodyard will help to put and end to much of this madness as well.

Good post.

I absolutely agree that DRC has been awful the last two games. He appears to either be lost or not give a damn.

I also agree with others that getting Von on the field and getting Woodyard back will be huge for the Broncos.
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:43 PM   #52
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Take out the 4th quarter of the Cowboys game (when the Broncos were missing 4 starters), and the Broncos Defense is middle of the pack.


Pretty darn good considering they entered the year with 7 new starters on Defense.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:12 PM   #53
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Having a diminished pass rush is the reason we are having a hard time not blowing coverages on every other play? Interesting...
it immensley helps any secondary if the opposing QB is being pressured on a consistent basis. That's really what matters when turning a mediocre secondary into a good unit and a good secondary (which the Broncos have talent wise) into a great unit.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:16 PM   #54
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I don't think the Deep pass has been the weak link....we1ve been destroyed over the middle in the area of the dropping MLB and FS for the most part. There were a couple bombs in the Dallas game....but overall it's been medium chunks. Moore has been playing last line of defense way back. Probably schemed that way while we wait on getting our pass rush really back. I bet we see more plays out of the Safety position once we are at full strength again. Not what's up with Nacho though....he keeps creating more plays for the offense recently than making plays for the defense.

Quit hitting your own guys
There have been gaping holes in the middle zones of the Broncos' defense these last two games. People are either out of position or the opposing QB has too much time to find the wide open receiver, or both.
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Old 10-17-2013, 03:05 PM   #55
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Good post.

I absolutely agree that DRC has been awful the last two games. He appears to either be lost or not give a damn.
DRC gave up just a couple (2?) of completions on his coverage against Jax and they weren't big plays. He was targetted only 4 or 5 times and defended the other passes his way.
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Old 10-17-2013, 04:42 PM   #56
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Take out the 4th quarter of the Cowboys game (when the Broncos were missing 4 starters), and the Broncos Defense is middle of the pack.
Seriously?!? Do you have stats to back that up? And do we get to take away every team's worst quarter?
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Old 10-17-2013, 04:47 PM   #57
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Seriously?!? Do you have stats to back that up? And do we get to take away every team's worst quarter?
he doesn't. If you took 300 yards passing off of the total we gave up, we'd still be 29th.

It's not good.
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Old 10-17-2013, 05:41 PM   #58
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We're missing some guys and haven't been able to build that chemistry. Also losing Dumervil, who applied more consistent pressure than Phillips, was another thing.

I also think teams are playing us differently. We spent a lot of time in base and nickel and built our defense around that all preseason. Given what people know they need to do to keep pace with Star Wars, they are playing us with four and even five wide. Fox mentioned two weeks ago that they were adequately prepared for that in his press conference following the Cowboys game. According to him we need to adjust and realize we are going to get their "two minute offense" possibly the entire game and the coaching staff will need to provide the team with more different looks out of our dime defense to make it more difficult.

Von definitely will help with the pass defense, though.

Almost all good points and on the money Kaylore, the only thing Im not so sure about is Doom being that much more consistent than Shaun Phillips in the same defense Phillips has had to play in so far.

Doom did well in his first few years as the main .. or only ... pass rusher for us but really excelled only when he was in the 3- 4 OLB spot.

Im not sure at all Doom would have been any better than Shaun so far this year without Von on the other side. Maybe his working in the scheme and with the rest of the defensive players in previous years would have given Elvis an edge on Phillips in these early games, but Shaun has done a very decent job without Von taking the pressure off of him and he has been a much better run defender so far.

With 5.5 sacks after only 6 games Shaun is on pace to eclipse all but Dooms best year as the 3-4 OLB for us with 17 sacks in 2009 and with Von back now could easily surpass Dooms best year as it is ...

Assuming he stays healthy and motivated as I expect he will with a chance to really shine again and get his first ring he could hit 16 to 18 sacks himself at this pace and with Vons help as well as be a significant improvement in run support over Doom.

Elvis may have done close to as good in sacks this year opposite Von but I'm not so sure he would have done as well as Shaun so far with no Von on the other side.

Last edited by Hulamau; 10-17-2013 at 05:49 PM..
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:01 PM   #59
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Lol.

I love it. The Broncos have been missing their top 4 players on Defense at times during the last few games, while playing 2 of the top 4 scoring teams in the NFL and you have guys like TonyR saying "I told ya so".

Told people what exactly? That Bolden, Carter, and Robinson suck? That Wolfe shouldn't be playing every single snap at DE? That Nate Irving shouldn't be MIKE? No sh*t Sherlock.


Give it a rest. Can't wait to rub it in your face the rest of the year.
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:40 PM   #60
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Almost all good points and on the money Kaylore, the only thing Im not so sure about is Doom being that much more consistent than Shaun Phillips in the same defense Phillips has had to play in so far.

Doom did well in his first few years as the main .. or only ... pass rusher for us but really excelled only when he was in the 3- 4 OLB spot.

Im not sure at all Doom would have been any better than Shaun so far this year without Von on the other side. Maybe his working in the scheme and with the rest of the defensive players in previous years would have given Elvis an edge on Phillips in these early games, but Shaun has done a very decent job without Von taking the pressure off of him and he has been a much better run defender so far.

With 5.5 sacks after only 6 games Shaun is on pace to eclipse all but Dooms best year as the 3-4 OLB for us with 17 sacks in 2009 and with Von back now could easily surpass Dooms best year as it is ...

Assuming he stays healthy and motivated as I expect he will with a chance to really shine again and get his first ring he could hit 16 to 18 sacks himself at this pace and with Vons help as well as be a significant improvement in run support over Doom.

Elvis may have done close to as good in sacks this year opposite Von but I'm not so sure he would have done as well as Shaun so far with no Von on the other side.
Well maybe not. I agree Phillips is better against the run, but Dumervil is younger. Regardless, we are fortunate the Broncos played well during Von's absence. Very curious to see how we play this weekend.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:08 PM   #61
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As a matter of fact yes I do. I can see you are perched on the edge of your seat hoping for the Broncos Defense to fail. Unfortunately for you, it's not nearly as bad as you say it is...
So, once again, anyone who is expressing concern about our pass defense is hoping the Broncos fail. That's just profoundly stupid. As is your desperate argument. Why are you so invested in being right about this?

You can twist and spin it all you want, but our pass defense hasn't been good all year. Yes, Von being out and player injuries have exacerbated the problem. But it's still a problem. You can plug your ears and say "la-la-la-la-la" all you want, but that won't make it go away.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:11 PM   #62
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The Broncos are 1st in rush Defense, and have the least amounts of rush attempts per game against them (22).

If you take 300 yards off the total yards (your plan, not mine), the Broncos would be 16th in total yards.
Nobody argued otherwise. You're changing the point, and you know it. This was about pass defense, not run defense. And this was about passing yards, not total yards.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:15 PM   #63
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...and you have guys like TonyR saying "I told ya so".

Told people what exactly?
First, who are "guys like" TonyR? I'm a one of a kind, bro.

Second, why do you keep putting words in people's mouths? You can go read exactly what I said instead of making sh*t up (I'd be happy to link threads and posts for you if you'd like, just ask). I merely proved that our pass defense struggles weren't all about "garbage time", and you and a few others lost your minds at the suggestion. The depths of how wrong you were are now clear for all to see and now you're angry about it. Be angry at yourself, not me.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:44 PM   #64
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I'd be willing to consider "garbage time stat padding" for the first few games, but not the Dal or Jax game. That's what had me concerned - we gave up a ton of yards in games where there was no garbage time at all.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:50 PM   #65
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I'd be willing to consider "garbage time stat padding" for the first few games, but not the Dal or Jax game. That's what had me concerned - we gave up a ton of yards in games where there was no garbage time at all.
I ran some numbers after week 4 that I used for this post:

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...
51% of the points scored against the Broncos, 55% of the yards gained against the Broncos, and 50% of 1st downs against the Broncos, have all come in the first two quarters of games. In other words, 50% or more of offensive performance against the Broncos this season has happened in the first half...
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:21 PM   #66
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I'll give as good a reason as any.


Terrance Knighton (48% of snaps) - 8 tackles, 0 sacks
Kevin Vickerson (47% of snaps) - 8 tackles, 0 sacks
Mitch Unrein (32% of snaps) - 6 tackles, 0 sacks
Sylvester Williams (15% of snaps) - 3 tackles, 0 sacks

What do all these guys have in common? None of them are good at rushing the passer. That doesn't leave many snaps for a guy like Malik Jackson to come in at DT at put pressure on the QB.

What are you left with? Almost no pass-rush production coming from the DT position, by design.

Add in that Derek Wolfe (78% of snaps) almost plays exclusively at the premier speed-rush position (RDE). This is a guy who saw almost all his production (6 sacks) and snaps, at 3-tech in 2012.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:26 PM   #67
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so much fail in this thread by fanboys inc....ugh
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:32 PM   #68
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Too many guys banged up - plain and simple.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:38 PM   #69
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Not saying that the Defensive Line hasn't played well in Von's absence. On the contrary, these guys have played to the best of their ability. 9th in the NFL in sacks, and contributing to 4th in the NFL in INT's.

Vickerson and Knighton stop an inside run in it's tracks. Too bad nobody is running against them.

Wolfe fights and claws his way through Guards and Centers with the best of them. Too bad he's being asked to "bend the corner" around Tackles with a 4.93 forty.

I suppose Del Rio has done the best he can do with a bad hand (injuries and suspension). Von's return will put everyone on the DL into a position where they can succeed.


As John Fox would say, "What's better than 6-0?"

Last edited by pricejj; 10-17-2013 at 10:40 PM..
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:43 PM   #70
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so much fail in this thread by fanboys inc....ugh

Well...we could be like you and start threads like these:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=112136 (Eric Decker, Worst in the NFL)

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=112532 (Chump Bailey)

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=112540 (Cumulative Record of Denver opponents: Unimpressive 11-25)

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=109816 (Denver has their own drive, fumble, choke)

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=109796 (Peyton Should Have Demanded to Throw!)

This gem, from 2009: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=82472 (Time to Call out #24)


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Old 10-17-2013, 10:44 PM   #71
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When Von is back we can rotate Malik Jackson, Robert Ayers and Wolfe inside on passing downs where they can be disruptive with Von and Phillips on the edge.

A lot of our pass rushing success came from the "nascar" package where we had this formation on the DL last year on passing downs.

LB (von) - DE (wolfe) - DE (ayers) - DE (doom)

Just plug Phillips into Dooms spot and let Malik Jackson rortate into either outside or inside spot. It seems like when we put Von's hand in the dirt he becomes a better pass rusher. All we lost on defense is Dumervil and we now have a better overall secondary and linebacker core.

We are going to be playing with the lead Von's gonna Von, and teams better be afraid.

Last edited by KevinJames; 10-17-2013 at 10:51 PM..
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:46 AM   #72
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It's going to be real fun to watch all these guys gel together, and adjust to their new roles they have carved out for themselves.

This is how I would play them going forward, and see how it goes:

Base Defense: 30% of snaps
SOLB: Miller (80%), Phillips (20%),
5-tech: Wolfe (80%), Jackson (20%)
1-tech: Vickerson (90%), Unrein (10%)
3-tech: Knighton (90%), Williams (10%)
DE: Ayers (80%), Phillips (20%)

Nickel Defense: 70% of snaps
LDE: Miller (80%) Phillips (20%)
1-tech: Jackson (40%), Wolfe (20%), Unrein (30%), Williams (10%)
3-tech: Wolfe (50%), Jackson (40%), Williams (10%)
RDE: Phillips (45%), Ayers (45%), Miller (10%)


Total: 100% of Defensive snaps
Miller: 87%
Wolfe: 73% (has 78%)
Jackson: 61% (has 47%)
Phillips: 57.5% (has 71%)
Ayers: 55.5% (has 52% due to injury)
Knighton: 34% (has 48%)
Vickerson: 34% (has 47%)
Unrein: 24% (has 34%)
Williams: 17% (has 15%)

Last edited by pricejj; 10-18-2013 at 01:03 AM..
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:06 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by TonyR View Post
...
51% of the points scored against the Broncos, 55% of the yards gained against the Broncos, and 50% of 1st downs against the Broncos, have all come in the first two quarters of games. In other words, 50% or more of offensive performance against the Broncos this season has happened in the first half...
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I ran some numbers after week 4 that I used for this post:
doesn't it make sense that 50% of production comes in a half? I that's the case, that means that production against the Broncos D is (fairly) uniformly distributed, which is contrary to the "garbage-time-stat-padding" theory.
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:11 AM   #74
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...which is contrary to the "garbage-time-stat-padding" theory.
Right. That was exactly my point in the thread linked below which, for some reason, raised a lot of hackles. I wasn't trying to say anything radical or controversial, and I wasn't bashing our defense, just making a simple point which some people had a very difficult time grasping.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=112256
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:11 AM   #75
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Well...we could be like you and start threads like these:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=112136 (Eric Decker, Worst in the NFL)

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=112532 (Chump Bailey)

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=112540 (Cumulative Record of Denver opponents: Unimpressive 11-25)

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=109816 (Denver has their own drive, fumble, choke)

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=109796 (Peyton Should Have Demanded to Throw!)

This gem, from 2009: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=82472 (Time to Call out #24)


It's a hall of shame of whining!
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