Dumervil vs. Phillips - Page 2 - The Orange Mane

Archer81 · 10-17-2013, 12:51 PM

If Doom were still on the roster...we would probably have the same exact sack numbers. We would not have signed Phillips and people would be complaining about Doom's lack of explosive plays.

...

Br0nc0Buster · 10-17-2013, 12:56 PM

It would be nice if we stopped using Wolfe as an edge rusher and let him attack the middle

That is something we have not seen this year that we had last year

Hopefully with Von back that changes

pricejj · 10-17-2013, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltaneer

I'm the Phillips hater and I've been paying attention to him when I've watched Bronco games.

Two of his sacks come against a rookie RT in the first game of the season after Oher went out.

One sack was in garbage time against Philly.

He had a coverage sack against Dallas and the second one came when Romo ran out of the pocket right into his arms due to pressure from the other side (Ayers?).

To me, his sacks have not been very impressive. The most impressive one to me was his coverage sack. Not saying he has played bad (for a backup he's living up to expectations I would say) but he kind of did the same thing the past couple of years in San Diego with his sacks either coming in garbage time or inferior opposition.

Sorry buddy, your credibility on this issue is WAY out the window. Phillips HAS been an impact player with the Broncos. Just last week he had 3 tipped balls (2 of them for INT's). Phillips also leading the Broncos in sacks.

Not a bad deal for $1M. You have no clue what you're talking about.

And oh yeah, Vasquez is kickin' ass too.

ColoradoDarin · 10-17-2013, 01:09 PM

Phillips + $11,000,000 > Doom + fun

You could make that 7 instead of 11 and the equation still works. Doom is a good player, but not worth $12M and probably not worth $8 either. Phillips has played well and he (and the rest of the DL) should benefit from Von's return.

Kaylore · 10-17-2013, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Br0nc0Buster

It would be nice if we stopped using Wolfe as an edge rusher and let him attack the middle

That is something we have not seen this year that we had last year

Hopefully with Von back that changes

Totally agree.

outdoor_miner · 10-17-2013, 01:15 PM

I am of the camp that Doom's level of play since his torn pec has been pretty much equivalent to what Phillips is now providing. Doom feasted on poor quality Tackles and end of game sacks (when he didn't have to worry about any threat of the run). To my eyes - he completely disappeared for very long stretches at a time his last 2 years in Denver. The only thing he maybe did better than Phillips was the strip-sack (which, admittedly, is a big play). But - Phillips seems to be stronger against the run.

It will be interesting to keep tabs on the comparison as the year goes on, and particularly now that Phillips has Von on the other side to take away some attention (but maybe Von also steals some sacks by getting to the QB quicker).

DomCasual · 10-17-2013, 01:17 PM

I will say that I miss the games where Von and Elvis were uninjured, fresh, and just scary. That was a fun defense to watch - when those two were meeting at the QB on almost every pass play.

I don't think Phillips will have that same dynamic, obviously.

Archer81 · 10-17-2013, 01:18 PM

I expect Von to create the confusion the defense needs to apply pressure Bronco fans are used to seeing. Von may not get the sack numbers himself, but Jackson, Phillips, Wolfe and Ayers will.

LetsGoBroncos · 10-17-2013, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DomCasual

The last thing this team needs is someone who is a huge liability against the fun! That can make a season seem eternal. We want guys who are assets to the fun!

Dammit. Fixed

BroncoBeavis · 10-17-2013, 01:29 PM

Football Outsiders has us listed at 27th in Adjusted Sack Rate.

Which is mostly an adjustment for how many passing plays you defense (among some other minor things).

A flat sack count doesn't mean much if you're getting thrown at twice as often as other teams.

BroncoBeavis · 10-17-2013, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoradoDarin

Phillips + $11,000,000 > Doom + fun + $5,000,000 dead cap money.

Makes a slight difference.

Rabb · 10-17-2013, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Br0nc0Buster

It would be nice if we stopped using Wolfe as an edge rusher and let him attack the middle

That is something we have not seen this year that we had last year

Hopefully with Von back that changes

Yes, exactly my point.

DomCasual · 10-17-2013, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LetsGoBroncos

Dammit. Fixed

Wait, there was something to fix?

Bronco Boy · 10-17-2013, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBII

Football Outsiders has us listed at 27th in Adjusted Sack Rate.

Which is mostly an adjustment for how many passing plays you defense (among some other minor things).

A flat sack count doesn't mean much if you're getting thrown at twice as often as other teams.

Yeah, it's pretty clear just from watching them that getting pressure is the biggest issue on D. Throwing Von out there should right the ship though.

broncocalijohn · 10-17-2013, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBII

I'd still pay Doom every day of the week. Probably kick in an extra million on Sunday.

This DL stinks to high hell at pass rushing. It's the biggest downside change from last year by far. Not sure how you can watch your team's defense go from #2 overall in 2012 to #29 now and say "I think that big move in the offseason really paid off"

I know Von is a big part and all. But it's more than a bit premature to say we don't miss Doom. I'm relatively sure we do.

I agree. We gained something but also lost a huge amount in pressures and sacks. Let us see if Phillips gets a move on once Miller takes the field. That will be the biggest test for the defense.

IndelibleScribe · 10-17-2013, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ludo21

QB hurries? overall impact on the Defense..... should have paid the man - er faxgate

No, he shouldn't have ****ed around at Kinko's He was overpaid and his true value was shown on the market.

Kaylore · 10-17-2013, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltaneer

I'm the Phillips hater and I've been paying attention to him when I've watched Bronco games.

Two of his sacks come against a rookie RT in the first game of the season after Oher went out.

One sack was in garbage time against Philly.

He had a coverage sack against Dallas and the second one came when Romo ran out of the pocket right into his arms due to pressure from the other side (Ayers?).

To me, his sacks have not been very impressive. The most impressive one to me was his coverage sack. Not saying he has played bad (for a backup he's living up to expectations I would say) but he kind of did the same thing the past couple of years in San Diego with his sacks either coming in garbage time or inferior opposition.

I haven't been paying attention to Dumervil. It seems like he's doing okay but not anything spectacular.

He had two pressures last game that caused deflections that directly led to interceptions. The Dallas sack was huge because it put them in a bind that led to that late interception.

We aren't paying him a ton of money. With Miller back it will continue to be a complimentary amount of pressure. I know fans' propensity to want players who leave their team to suck, but he's been doing exactly what we hoped out of someone at his salary and age.

Rabb · 10-17-2013, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltaneer

I'm the Phillips hater and I've been paying attention to him when I've watched Bronco games.

Two of his sacks come against a rookie RT in the first game of the season after Oher went out.

One sack was in garbage time against Philly.

He had a coverage sack against Dallas and the second one came when Romo ran out of the pocket right into his arms due to pressure from the other side (Ayers?).

To me, his sacks have not been very impressive. The most impressive one to me was his coverage sack. Not saying he has played bad (for a backup he's living up to expectations I would say) but he kind of did the same thing the past couple of years in San Diego with his sacks either coming in garbage time or inferior opposition.

I haven't been paying attention to Dumervil. It seems like he's doing okay but not anything spectacular.

Eh, it's hard to bang on the guy for doing what he's supposed to especially since if he didn't take advantage of situations you'd equally blast him for that.

It's just like teams winning against crappy teams and not getting credit...you can only play against who's on the schedule.

I suppose when Von comes back and Phillips can run a little more free, he won't get credit then either amirite?

boltaneer · 10-17-2013, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pricejj

Sorry buddy, your credibility on this issue is WAY out the window. Phillips HAS been an impact player with the Broncos. Just last week he had 3 tipped balls (2 of them for INT's). Phillips also leading the Broncos in sacks.

Not a bad deal for $1M. You have no clue what you're talking about.

And oh yeah, Vasquez is kickin' ass too.

Don't get me wrong, for the salary he's earning, it's a good deal. I've never said anything contrary to that since he signed with Denver.

He's always been good at deflecting passes. That's been one of his best traits throughout his entire career.

The point is that he tends to pad his stats against inferior opponents. I've already commented on his sacks and sacks are often a very misleading statistic.

BroncoBeavis · 10-17-2013, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabb

Eh, it's hard to bang on the guy for doing what he's supposed to especially since if he didn't take advantage of situations you'd equally blast him for that.

It's just like teams winning against crappy teams and not getting credit...you can only play against who's on the schedule.

I suppose when Von comes back and Phillips can run a little more free, he won't get credit then either amirite?

For me, it's mostly just from eyeballing the games. The pass rush has looked nothing like it did in '11-12. And it's not just the lack of sacks, but how absolutely comfortable those pockets look 90% of the time.

ColoradoDarin · 10-17-2013, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltaneer

Don't get me wrong, for the salary he's earning, it's a good deal. I've never said anything contrary to that since he signed with Denver.

He's always been good at deflecting passes. That's been one of his best traits throughout his entire career.

The point is that he tends to pad his stats against inferior opponents. I've already commented on his sacks and sacks are often a very misleading statistic.

Shouldn't everyone though? I mean, by definition, if you are better then you will have the stats and if you are worse, they're going to be the ones padding their stats. It's basic logic. We've also had this same complaint against Doom.

boltaneer · 10-17-2013, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabb

Eh, it's hard to bang on the guy for doing what he's supposed to especially since if he didn't take advantage of situations you'd equally blast him for that.

It's just like teams winning against crappy teams and not getting credit...you can only play against who's on the schedule.

I suppose when Von comes back and Phillips can run a little more free, he won't get credit then either amirite?

If Miller continues to beast, that will open it up for the other pass rushers for sure. Phillips was at his best here when teams had to focus on Merriman.

Rabb · 10-17-2013, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoradoDarin

Shouldn't everyone though? I mean, by definition, if you are better then you will have the stats and if you are worse, they're going to be the ones padding their stats. It's basic logic. We've also had this same complaint against Doom.

One would think huh?

Instead people use it to suit their arguments, and if anyone or a team struggles against an inferior opponent then they use that.

We should be playing the Patriots every week or the season means nothing.

boltaneer · 10-17-2013, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColoradoDarin

Shouldn't everyone though? I mean, by definition, if you are better then you will have the stats and if you are worse, they're going to be the ones padding their stats. It's basic logic. We've also had this same complaint against Doom.

Sure, everyone does it, Pass rushers, QBs, running backs.

That's why it's important for players to perform well in clutch situations against the best competition. I know Denver has played a weak schedule so far but if people going to be touting his sack numbers, I think you have to take a closer look at how he got them.

Rabb · 10-17-2013, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltaneer

If Miller continues to beast, that will open it up for the other pass rushers for sure. Phillips was at his best here when teams had to focus on Merriman.

Oh I agree with you fully, but that is what being part of a team is. The same can and will be said for the front 4 once Von gets back also. I am just saying, that shouldn't discredit Phillips nor should he have some magical asterisk for playing against weaker players.

Now, a guy like Kruger...if we were talking about that sort of difference in play from one team to another you would have a point. He CLEARLY benefited from his surrounding cast from the results so far.

I just think you are too biased to be fair here, he's not Doom by any stretch but he's playing very well.

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10-17-2013, 12:51 PM	#26
Archer81 Optimum Homo Tactical Neck. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 22,737	If Doom were still on the roster...we would probably have the same exact sack numbers. We would not have signed Phillips and people would be complaining about Doom's lack of explosive plays. ...

10-17-2013, 12:56 PM	#27
Br0nc0Buster 2013 AFC Champs Oh........yea Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 6,137	It would be nice if we stopped using Wolfe as an edge rusher and let him attack the middle That is something we have not seen this year that we had last year Hopefully with Von back that changes

10-17-2013, 01:09 PM	#29
ColoradoDarin Busting off 2k Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wilson, NC Posts: 8,846 Adopt-a-Bronco: CJ Anderson	Phillips + $11,000,000 > Doom + fun You could make that 7 instead of 11 and the equation still works. Doom is a good player, but not worth $12M and probably not worth $8 either. Phillips has played well and he (and the rest of the DL) should benefit from Von's return.

10-17-2013, 01:15 PM	#31
outdoor_miner Ring of Famer New to the Forum Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,166 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	I am of the camp that Doom's level of play since his torn pec has been pretty much equivalent to what Phillips is now providing. Doom feasted on poor quality Tackles and end of game sacks (when he didn't have to worry about any threat of the run). To my eyes - he completely disappeared for very long stretches at a time his last 2 years in Denver. The only thing he maybe did better than Phillips was the strip-sack (which, admittedly, is a big play). But - Phillips seems to be stronger against the run. It will be interesting to keep tabs on the comparison as the year goes on, and particularly now that Phillips has Von on the other side to take away some attention (but maybe Von also steals some sacks by getting to the QB quicker).

10-17-2013, 01:17 PM	#32
DomCasual This one's for Pat! Shameless Homer Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: SLC, UT Posts: 14,104 Adopt-a-Bronco: Pat Bowlen	I will say that I miss the games where Von and Elvis were uninjured, fresh, and just scary. That was a fun defense to watch - when those two were meeting at the QB on almost every pass play. I don't think Phillips will have that same dynamic, obviously.

10-17-2013, 01:18 PM	#33
Archer81 Optimum Homo Tactical Neck. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 22,737	I expect Von to create the confusion the defense needs to apply pressure Bronco fans are used to seeing. Von may not get the sack numbers himself, but Jackson, Phillips, Wolfe and Ayers will.

10-17-2013, 01:29 PM	#35
BroncoBeavis Ring of Famer New to the Forum Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 4,948 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	Football Outsiders has us listed at 27th in Adjusted Sack Rate. Which is mostly an adjustment for how many passing plays you defense (among some other minor things). A flat sack count doesn't mean much if you're getting thrown at twice as often as other teams.